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Tommy Tallarico

Tommy Tallarico - Fun Amico Conversations

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58 minutes ago, GrudgeQ said:

Kudo's to Intellivision for making sure the motion controls in Cornhole are solid. That is showing the commitment to making each game worthy of your purchase - and this one is included, you don't even have to buy it - which is even more impressive.

Yes, and it is the difference Amico games will have from majority of ”mobile” games, its not the graphics, but the well thought out game mechanics and well balanced gameplay that makes them fun. And I’m getting tired of hearing that the Switch also focus on making the games fun, but the guys at Nintendo isn’t spending any time thinking about how they could make Zelda BOTW more fun for grandma or a non gamer, they have a very different focus/primary target audience for the majority of their games.

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9 hours ago, Q_BertZ said:

Will people really care when this releases a decade from now? This should have come out two years ago and for the price point you can get a Nintendo Switch with the same type of games albeit shovel ware off of the e-Shop. Tommy mishandled this console from the start and bit off more than he could chew. 

That is quite a first post.  You might have bit off more than you can chew.

 

"Tommy mishandled this console from the start"  Hmm, being as this is his brain child and his vision, if it comes out as he planned it in his mind, then you are 100% wrong!

It does not matter what you want it to be, or when you want it.  It doesn't matter what I want it to be either!

 

That being said, He has done the research and has the professional video games experience.  So, I think I will trust his vision over anyone else, when it comes to his product!

 

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8 hours ago, mr_me said:

There's no way the computer/controller can know where you are standing and what direction you are throwing in.  That has to be done visually with on screen graphics.  That leaves the vertical angle and velocity.  Both are being done with motion control and doesn't look complicated at all.  Although the vertical angle isn't being done by a throwing motion it's still using intuitive motion control.

I have a couple technical questions about what you wrote. If you point the controller straight at the center of the screen and calibrate, like you do with a JoyCon, the gyroscope and accelerometer should be able to able to measure your horizontal movement and angle of the controller, shouldn't they? I'm also confused by how the vertical angle of throw can be done with motion controls but not by the throwing motion, unless you consider a motion control a programmed algorithm that is triggered by the throwing motion or a button release, etc. Actually, I'm still wondering why a gyroscope and accelerometer couldn't determine whether a throw would result in a high lob, medium lob or line drive. Basically, I'm just curious about the capabilities and limitations of this gyroscope/accelerometer combination in Wii, Switch and Amico controllers. For instance, I just recently learned from the video I posted earlier that the "sensor" bar was better at keeping calibration than the gyroscope, but less convenient.

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In their video they are setting the vertical angle by tilting the controller up and down.  You could do the same thing through the disc or touchpad.  Similarly you could set your standing positions by moving the controller left or right rather than using the touchpad as they did in the video.

 

The accelerometer and gyroscope don't measure distances or angles, they measure forces.  For example if you move the controller at a constant speed to the right.  The controller knows when you started to move and when it stopped but it has no idea how far it moved.  The same thing goes for rotation and the gyroscope.  That's why you need visual cues on screen to do it with any accuracy.

 

As far as determining the vertical angle with a throwing motion, it would be great if they could pull it off accurately.  It's tricky because although the accelerometer does measure forces with direction in 3d, it's relative to the controller's orientation and therefore changes as the controller rotates during the throw.  They would have to compensate by estimating it's rotation.  But how can you estimate rotation angle accurately with just rotational force data.  Edit:  To be more correct the gyroscope measures angular speed, so you should be able to caculate changes in the controller orientation.

Edited by mr_me
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14 hours ago, Q_BertZ said:

Will people really care when this releases a decade from now? This should have come out two years ago and for the price point you can get a Nintendo Switch with the same type of games albeit shovel ware off of the e-Shop. Tommy mishandled this console from the start and bit off more than he could chew. 

Why would you attack Tommy personally? He has an entire company with a staff. I'm pretty sure there's a team of people making decisions, and we don't know what all is going on, nor is it any of our business. To say that it's your opinion Intellivision handled it poorly, whether people agree with you or not, would have been much more appropriate.

 

Why are you even commenting in this room if you feel this way? Your calling the games shovel ware is only to be insulting. I get it if the console is not for you, but wtf show some respect; just move along. Calling someone, you don't know or even work with, a failure and telling them there work is crap is crazy nuts.

Edited by RREDDWARFF
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1 hour ago, mr_me said:

In their video they are setting the vertical angle by tilting the controller up and down.  You could do the same thing through the disc or touchpad.  Similarly you could set your standing positions by moving the controller left or right rather than using the touchpad as they did in the video.

 

The accelerometer and gyroscope don't measure distances or angles, they measure forces.  For example if you move the controller at a constant speed to the right.  The controller knows when you started to move and when it stopped but it has no idea how far it moved.  The same thing goes for rotation and the gyroscope.  That's why you need visual cues on screen to do it with any accuracy.

 

As far as determining the vertical angle with a throwing motion, it would be great if they could pull it off accurately.  It's tricky because although the accelerometer does measure forces with direction in 3d, it's relative to the controller's orientation and therefore changes as the controller rotates during the throw.  They would have to compensate by estimating it's rotation.  But how can you estimate rotation angle accurately with just rotational force data.  Edit:  To be more correct the gyroscope measures angular speed, so you should be able to caculate changes in the controller orientation.

Like this video showed, you can measure relative distance with repeatability, after calibration, although you will eventually get drift and need to recalibrate. You can also determine the orientation of the controller in 3D space after calibration, as well as linear force, direction of movement and time. As shown in the 2nd attached video, a little calculus will give you exact distance from the origin point of calibration from linear force and time (the mass of the accelerometer sensor is known to the processing program). It seems theoretically doable, but not sure about "practically" doable.

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Tommy Tallarico said:


Exactly.

I would kindly ask that folks judge the controls after they had a chance to play it. 

Folks may not remember that the first thing you do in Wii Bowling is position the player where you want to stand.

The controls for Cornhole were never "broken"... they just weren't in a place where we wanted them to be from a FUN factor.  I guess if you wanted to say they were broken from a fun standpoint... you could make that argument. 

At some point I think people need to realize that we are making the games as fun as possible and that we know what we're doing. 

There have been dozens of people who have played Amico and reported on how fun it was and how great the games were. 

Zero reason for us to want to sabotage a pack-in game.  

:)

 

 

Anyone else find it interesting that all the ‘concern” is coming from people who haven't played any of the games and that there hasn’t been any concerns, that I’m aware of, from those that have?  
 

For those not just looking to stir the pot and that have legitimate concerns, take it from someone who has played many of the games; they are producing quality, complete and well thought out games with controllers that feel natural and responsive.  They know more than anyone that games and game play are what will make or break the system, and from what I’ve seen first hand, I don’t see a need to worry at this point.
 

Leave the game engineering to the same folks who’ve already produced many quality games, cause from where I sit, they’ve more then earned a little trust.  
 

Do I think I’m going to love every game? No, but for every 1 that may not be my favorite, I know there will be 10 more that are; and the game that might not be my favorite may be someone else's - which by the way I’m dang well not going to invest my time telling them why they shouldn’t like it, cause that would be just plain stupid, right?

Edited by Starpaddler
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5 minutes ago, Swami said:

Like this video showed, you can measure relative distance with repeatability, after calibration, although you will eventually get drift and need to recalibrate. You can also determine the orientation of the controller in 3D space after calibration, as well as linear force, direction of movement and time. As shown in the 2nd attached video, a little calculus will give you exact distance from the origin point of calibration from linear force and time (the mass of the accelerometer sensor is known to the processing program). It seems theoretically doable, but not sure about "practically" doable.

Yeah you're right, you can calculate distance by having the computer calculate velocity from the measured accelerations and then distance by measuring the time between starting and ending forces.  But I don't know if I'd rather position myself in the game by actually physically moving a few feet to the right or just swiping my thumb on the touchpad.

 

The horizontal angle could be determined by pointing an onscreen cursor with gyroscope motion control (as in that wii/switch video) but that's not a throwing motion.  In the Amico video they have aiming by selecting a spot on the touchscreen.  Neither method is a throwing motion.  Calculating the horizontal angle by throwing motion is different because the accelerometer would be used to calculate the direction.  Again, the 3d directions the accelerometer senses are relative to the controller and it should be possible to compensate for any rotation during the throw to get a proper horizontal angle of the throw.  The same thing applies for the vertical angle.  Theoretically it should be possible, and that's how they had it in the original Amico Cornhole.  I wonder what exactly was wrong with it.

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29 minutes ago, mr_me said:

Yeah you're right, you can calculate distance by having the computer calculate velocity from the measured accelerations and then distance by measuring the time between starting and ending forces.  But I don't know if I'd rather position myself in the game by actually physically moving a few feet to the right or just swiping my thumb on the touchpad.

Practically every motion control game uses the dpad or analog stick to set horizontal position to avoid furniture/broken lamp limitations or to allow you to sit on the couch while you play. A few games do make use of moving around.

 

Quote

The horizontal angle could be determined by pointing an onscreen cursor with gyroscope motion control (as in that wii/switch video) but that's not a throwing motion.  In the Amico video they have aiming by selecting a spot on the touchscreen.  Neither method is a throwing motion.  Calculating the horizontal angle by throwing motion is different because the accelerometer would be used to calculate the direction.  Again, the 3d directions the accelerometer senses are relative to the controller and it should be possible to compensate for any rotation during the throw to get a proper horizontal angle of the throw.  The same thing applies for the vertical angle.  Theoretically it should be possible, and that's how they had it in the original Amico Cornhole.  I wonder what exactly was wrong with it.

I think the Wii and probably the Switch greatly simplified play to avoid people getting tennis elbow, carpal tunnel and the like and also to allow couch play. Also, it could be that large swings of the controller, besides breaking things, may increase the drift seen in the video, so you don't get what you want. 

 

I understand how too much realism may decrease fun, especially for young kids and grandma. Wii boxing was in no way realistic. Everyone knows the best way to win is to just punch alternately with each fist and as fast as possible without much strategy. XBox One had an advanced fighting Kinect 2.0 game called Fighters Uncaged, I think, which involved a lot of strategy and most people hated it and thought it was broken, while people who went through the tutorial three times figured it out.

 

Still, my explanations are speculation based on my experience and what other players have said plus the programming exec in the "history of the Kinect" video that said you can either teach someone to sword-fight or let them have fun playing.

 

EDIT: Also, for all I know, it may cost $10,000 to get an accelerometer, gyroscope and transmitter capable of doing what I'm suggesting with good precision. Also, I might not understand it if it was explained to me. Most physicists I talk to lose me about 10 minutes into the conversation, but keep talking for another 30.

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There is strategy in cornhole besides just aiming skill.  So if you're struggling with the aiming you might be missing out on the rest of the game.  I can see how the changes improve that aspect of the game and can make it more fun.

Edited by mr_me
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19 hours ago, Q_BertZ said:

Will people really care when this releases a decade from now? This should have come out two years ago and for the price point you can get a Nintendo Switch with the same type of games albeit shovel ware off of the e-Shop. Tommy mishandled this console from the start and bit off more than he could chew. 

Imagine joining AtariAge to make this your first, and I assume, last post. Thanks for all your contributions! 

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The cornhole game is licensed through ACL correct? I would assume as with any licensed product that they would have say and input to different aspects of the game itself. From the Amico site itself:

 

Developed exclusively for the Amico system with some of the world’s greatest professional cornhole players, the American Cornhole League, which has been broadcast on ESPN since 2016, is bringing America’s fastest-growing recreational sport into the living room. With the intention of providing a game for everyone in the family, regardless of skill level, users can utilize the unique Amico controller with touchscreen and motion controls.  Gameplay is available in career, arcade, multiplayer, or free play mode and features over 100 unlockables, multiple challenges, skill levels and ways to play – no summer BBQ picnic required.

Edited by PeterPepper
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On 7/26/2021 at 8:26 PM, Starpaddler said:

$30 or $50 more may not sway you or me (and preorders not withstanding), but it would likely result in thousands or 10’s of thousands less units sold. That being said, think typical business practice for current supply would be to release the first non-presale units at a higher price then reduce as things are able to scale (from a purely supply/demand price perspective, there are always other considerations) 

I guess following the Amico news basically everyday will make it extra frustrating if there are no units delivered  this year.  I understand the issues with supply of parts and parts being more expensive but we need a Launch date even if it takes many months to satisfy demand. The end of July is here so what is the launch date ? 

Edited by Cranker

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47 minutes ago, Cranker said:

I guess following the Amico news basically everyday will make it extra frustrating if there are no units delivered  this year.  I understand the issues with supply of parts and parts being more expensive but we need a Launch date even if it takes many months to satisfy demand. The end of July is here so what is the launch date ? 

Delay incoming 😉

Edited by MarioMan88
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5 minutes ago, MarioMan88 said:

Delay incoming 😉

I’m afraid so but what will be the new launch date ? And why wait until the last second to tell us ?Honestly, my feeling is that even if they could get some units out there , it does not seem like the games are ready. Launch with less games. Maybe 10 games ? Or just the pack in games ? But how many are 100% ready today ? 

Edited by Cranker
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Games don't have to be ready today (packins aside), they have to be ready at launch.

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36 minutes ago, mr_me said:

Games don't have to be ready today (packins aside), they have to be ready at launch.

True enough. But the end of July is here so I’m assuming a delay but would like to know how long a delay. I guess I’m impatient !

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They recently said they would make an announcement in a couple of weeks.  They can delay six months, like they did the last two times but the parts supply issue won't necessarily resolve by then.

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31 minutes ago, Cranker said:

But the end of July is here so I’m assuming a delay

Yeah, I thought by now that Tommy would've told us.  I'm sure he already knows that it's delayed again.  I guess he wants to wait until August to give an update on the launch.

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I hope it's not delayed but suppose it isn't looking great.   Hopefully at the very least though the founders editions get delivered around the October release date.

 

Personally I'd rather pay more for an Amico (up to about £350) to get one on the original date than have to wait another 6/12 months or however long.

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3 hours ago, Cranker said:

I understand the issues with supply of parts and parts being more expensive but we need a Launch date even if it takes many months to satisfy demand. The end of July is here so what is the launch date ? 

How do you go about answering an unknown? Supply chain problems for many industries are not going away soon. There is no defined finish for the shortage at this point, so very hard to project dates. If they don’t know when they will get, how can they project to you when you will get. 
 

A similar exercise is let’s pretend you are buying it for sure, and your kid is asking when they will get it, with a date attached. You now know it will probably not be 10/10/21, but what are you going to tell your kid if they are demanding the new date? 
 

IE has some more control than this, but on many levels they are at the same mercy to the supply chain as you are to them providing you the product. 

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