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Tommy Tallarico - Fun Amico Conversations

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1 hour ago, Swami said:

I don’t have any kids, but I have 10 nieces and nephews. So, my own limited experience is that maybe the old grandmas didn’t by any games for their Wii, but my nieces and nephews had all the party games: Wii Play, Wii Motion, DDR games,  all the hunting games, Just Dance, a few sports games plus the typical Mario/Smash/Zelda games. 

Actually my purchases were similar but just somewhat fewer. One thing I did notice is that I purchases way more 'large hunks of plastic' for the Wii than any other console. We had the Wii Fit board, DDR pad & one of the Guitar games (don't remember which one).

 

I pulled this partial list from Wiki and I think it explains why the Wii is considered to have a poor attachment rate - it *did* if you were anyone other than Nintendo making a non-casual game. Take a look at the top of the list, you have to scroll all the way down to #17 to get to the first non Nintendo related title, "Just Dance 2". Sure Nintendo got other companies to do some of the earlier ones and Sega did a couple, but they all had "Mario" or some other Nintendo associated character in the title or where casual.

 

Also check out the genres in order: Sports, Racing, Sports, 2d Platform, Party, Exergaming, Exergaming and then #8: Super Smash Bros Brawl: Fighting, action platformer. You are all the way down to #30 before you hit a serious, hard core game IMO, Resident Evil 4. It sold 1/15 of Mario Kart Wii numbers. Basically it was casual, iconic Nintendo franchise or poor sales.

Wii Software Top 30.png

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So there's this rumor going around that XBOX is going to release a $200 version called the Xbox Series S (all digital version).  So a few folks have reached out to me to get my reaction to see if I was worried.

 

In case anyone in here is curious, this is my response...

No. Not at all. You could GIVE AWAY a FREE Xbox Series S to non-gamers and they still wouldn't play the games as they are too complicated, too expensive, no couch co-op, more adult and complex (i.e. LONG) experiences, etc.  You may have heard me say this before... our main audience is the 3 billion casual and non-gamers playing mobile, people 45 and older who remember what gaming was like, families with young kids looking to play together, groups of friends who like playing together in the same room no matter what your gaming skill level, etc.  Do I think some of those 3 billion casuals will try out a Series S if it's $200?  Sure!  But what we're doing is a completely different thing and people will be picking up an Amico for completely different reasons. 

Honestly, I don't really think Microsoft is going to take that much of a loss on their system... I think they are leaking stuff like this just to mess with Sony.

:)

But again... even if it is true.  I'm not worried at all. Our audience and proposal to them is completely different.  No matter what Sony or Microsoft do... they'll always have a complicated controller (to the average person) with the majority of games being long, complex and expensive that are mainly single player or solitary online experiences.  If one of them decided to make a brand new Wii Sports type device for $200... then I'd be a little worried.  But none of them are and the Series S is definitely not that... no matter what the price.

 

 

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A disc-less next gen Xbox system of some kind is bound to happen, especially considering that they already have the Xbox One S AD edition and Sony is releasing a PS5 AD edition too.  However, I believe that a $199 next gen Xbox console could potentially sell quite well.  Granted, it won't appeal to casual and non-gamers at the beginning.  Still, if they can tap into their extensive back catalog with the previous generation consoles and start cultivating titles that focus beyond regular and/or hard-core gamers, then perhaps they can have substantially growth.  But, that is a lot of 'what-ifs' and we will just have to wait and see what exactly they do.

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21 minutes ago, GrudgeQ said:

Actually my purchases were similar but just somewhat fewer. One thing I did notice is that I purchases way more 'large hunks of plastic' for the Wii than any other console. We had the Wii Fit board, DDR pad & one of the Guitar games (don't remember which one).

 

I pulled this partial list from Wiki and I think it explains why the Wii is considered to have a poor attachment rate - it *did* if you were anyone other than Nintendo making a non-casual game. Take a look at the top of the list, you have to scroll all the way down to #17 to get to the first non Nintendo related title, "Just Dance 2". Sure Nintendo got other companies to do some of the earlier ones and Sega did a couple, but they all had "Mario" or some other Nintendo associated character in the title.

 

Also check out the genres in order: Sports, Racing, Sports, 2d Platform, Party, Exergaming, Exergaming and then #8: Super Smash Bros Brawl: Fighting, action platformer. You are all the way down to #30 before you hit a serious, hard core game IMO, Resident Evil 4. It sold 1/15 of Mario Kart Wii numbers. Basically it was casual, iconic Nintendo franchise or poor sales.

Wii Software Top 30.png

I’ll have to wait to get home tonight to get a good look at the table as I can only use my phone for this site at work. On a lighter note, I also know a lot of people who kind of had the treadmill/exercise bike experience where they bought any games they thought would be good exercise, even if they ended up not having the ambition to play them. 

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4 minutes ago, GrudgeQ said:

Actually my purchases were similar but just somewhat fewer. One thing I did notice is that I purchases way more 'large hunks of plastic' for the Wii than any other console. We had the Wii Fit board, DDR pad & one of the Guitar games (don't remember which one).

 

I pulled this partial list from Wiki and I think it explains why the Wii is considered to have a poor attachment rate - it *did* if you were anyone other than Nintendo making a non-casual game. Take a look at the top of the list, you have to scroll all the way down to #17 to get to the first non Nintendo related title, "Just Dance 2". Sure Nintendo got other companies to do some of the earlier ones and Sega did a couple, but they all had "Mario" or some other Nintendo associated character in the title.

 

Also check out the genres: Sports, Racing, Sports, 2d Platform, Party, Exergaming, Exergaming and then #8: Super Smash Bros Brawl: Fighting, action platformer. You are all the way down to #30 before you hit a serious, hard core game IMO, Resident Evil 4. It sold 1/15 of Mario Kart Wii numbers. Basically it was casual or poor sales.

Wii Software Top 30.png


I was just about to say the same thing in regards to this great discussion.  Ya beat me to it!

Here's another crazy stat about the Wii.  About 1/4 of the people who purchased a Wii console, NEVER even bought a game for it!  That is pretty staggering and very unlike any other platform.  The reason was that many people just bought it for Wii Sports.  The pack-in game.  They wanted super hyper casual SIMPLE... and they got it and were happy with just that.  Also important to note that those people paid $249 14 1/2 years ago (that's $317 adjusted for inflation) to get that in-home experience (which only included one controller and one simple tech demo style pack-in game).  What if those same people heard about a console that was $70 cheaper (i.e. adjusted for inflation) came with 2 controllers and the ability to play up to 8 players via mobile devices AND came with 6 (or 7?) full simple, family fun games that everyone could play and learn immediately.  And all the games were $9.99 or less? 

:)


The data shows that a very good portion of non-gaming/casual folks who purchased a Wii weren't interested in Zelda, Pikman, Smash Bros., Metroid, or even Mario Kart, etc. (all GREAT 1st party games for gamers!).  You'll notice that Wii Sports Resort is right at the top of the list... behind Wii Sports and Mario Kart.  What does that tell you?  And as @GrudgeQ rightfully pointed out... look at MOST of the biggest selling games on that list.  Notice anything?  Notice how it is somewhat similar to what we are doing? 

 

Curious to know if people think I just got lucky... or if we studied this and went through all the data with the people who helped to launch the system and have a LOT more data than what's been shown publicly.  :)

 

Of course the counter argument would be... but yeah... all those people moved over to mobile now.  Yes... and how do they like the mobile experience?  Do they like loot boxes, microtransactions, pop-up windows, in app advertising, gameplay that revolves around sucking money out of you?  I know the answer.  I have the research and data (and common sense).  Will maybe 1% of those people be potentially interested in what we are offering?  Especially when mobile is not offering that in person... playing together... "Wii" experience.

What if someone took all the BEST parts of mobile (hyper casual & casual gaming), the best parts of the Wii (simple, easy to learn experiences with friends), mixed in the best parts of retro (being together, simple to learn but lifetime to master) with a huge value and trust proposition. 

Wouldn't That Be Something?

 

❤️

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Hwlngmad said:

A disc-less next gen Xbox system of some kind is bound to happen, especially considering that they already have the Xbox One S AD edition and Sony is releasing a PS5 AD edition too.  However, I believe that a $199 next gen Xbox console could potentially sell quite well.  Granted, it won't appeal to casual and non-gamers at the beginning.  Still, if they can tap into their extensive back catalog with the previous generation consoles and start cultivating titles that focus beyond regular and/or hard-core gamers, then perhaps they can have substantially growth.  But, that is a lot of 'what-ifs' and we will just have to wait and see what exactly they do.


They would also need to completely redesign their controller. 

 

Again... not impossible (i.e. come out with a casual controller with no dual analogue sticks, less buttons, etc.) but also... as you said... a lot of "what if's".

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Swami said:

I’ll have to wait to get home tonight to get a good look at the table as I can only use my phone for this site at work. On a lighter note, I also know a lot of people who kind of had the treadmill/exercise bike experience where they bought any games they thought would be good exercise, even if they ended up not having the ambition to play them. 

Honestly that was part of our justification for getting the Wii. Although I didn't get as much of a work out as I thought I would, nor did my wife yoga as much as she thought she would, the Wii was responsible for more sweat than any video game playing device in the household until I got a Vive. VR games can be a real workout. Overall my memories of the Wii were: simple fun, family playing together and a bit of exercise. Lots of fond memories of the Wii (it got downsized, along with a ton of other stuff, in a house move - I still miss it).

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37 minutes ago, Tommy Tallarico said:


Yeah... I really loved their format and how they were all making their points in a respectful way. 

I left a comment on the video and we are going to do a Round 2 together.  I thought all the guys were great and the things they had concerns about... I have answers for.  I think once they hear them, they may have a better understanding of who our market is and why it doesn't really matter if the name Intellivision is on the console or not.  They voiced their concerns in a very respectful way... which is always refreshing to see.  Looking forward to speaking with them.  They all seem like really cool guys.

This is yet another typical example of why Amico haters get it so wrong.  They moan and whine that "Tommy and/or folks who like the system can't take criticism!"  When in reality, what they are really trying to say is... "We don't like it when Tommy or folks who like Amico make counterpoints because it gives an opposite value to our negative hateful opinions". 

There has been countless times when I have heard concerns and engaged in a respectful way.  No matter how rude or passively aggressive they initially treated me.  The overwhelming majority of folks typically like the system after I engage with them... and a few don't.  And that's totally fine.  How many times have people in here heard me say... "Amico isn't for everyone".  And it's not.  Just like Xbox, PS, Switch, PC & mobile are not for everyone either.  Not really a big deal is it.  :)

 

 


Right.  And you only see the dichotomy you’re in.  Which is where a lot of people get hung up.  We have something of a formula for a successful game, a successful console.. and while that’s aimed to success, we have a hard time seeing the audience that model is unsuccessful at picking up or appealing to. I think that’s where most retro video game players are at.  They understand the nature of the market and what works in that market as concerns the examples they’ve seen.  But they haven’t seen something like this.  They factor in “people play mobile because it’s in their pocket” - which is part of the reason, convenience can’t be ignored. But I bet if you looked at phone location vs gameplay data, *most* of that gameplay is done in people’s homes during downtime, evenings, timewasters on a weekend.  And if you look at older people in gaming communities, you hear the same refrain off burnout, or no time to play the styles of games being put out.  Part of why they return to retro or mobile.  Easier to pick up and put down.

 

And while some might suggest “just put these games on a compilation disc!”, those have limited reach and attention.  They’re lost in thousands of options. The vast libraries of digital $10 games aren’t selling casual buyers into getting an Xbox, they SEE the AAA games in those aisles and top Amazon suggestions and top YouTube results.  Anything else is lost.  A separate system is a necessity in marketing to a new audience not in our “gamer” evo-system.  They’ll get it, will just have to see it play out to realize some of the potential.

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8 minutes ago, Tommy Tallarico said:


They would also need to completely redesign their controller. 

 

Again... not impossible (i.e. come out with a casual controller with no dual analogue sticks, less buttons, etc.) but also... as you said... a lot of "what if's".

 

 

Considering how much R&D MS put into the design of the new controller, I doubt they will redesign the controller but may tweak it down the road.  Same for Sony.

 

But, again, lot of what-ifs, if anything at all.  However, it will be interesting to see how it all plays out, that's for sure.

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2 minutes ago, Hwlngmad said:

Considering how much R&D MS put into the design of the new controller, I doubt they will redesign the controller but may tweak it down the road.  Same for Sony.

 

But, again, lot of what-ifs, if anything at all.  However, it will be interesting to see how it all plays out, that's for sure.

 

Yeah!  Grab the popcorn! 

 

I think folks will be writing about the 2020 Sony vs. Microsoft battle for years to come!

 

 

696185434e2d5c3b91607733423665c1.thumb.jpg.76260f18a25743b49884527a8f0f1d95.jpg

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22 minutes ago, Hwlngmad said:

A disc-less next gen Xbox system of some kind is bound to happen, especially considering that they already have the Xbox One S AD edition and Sony is releasing a PS5 AD edition too.  However, I believe that a $199 next gen Xbox console could potentially sell quite well.  Granted, it won't appeal to casual and non-gamers at the beginning.  Still, if they can tap into their extensive back catalog with the previous generation consoles and start cultivating titles that focus beyond regular and/or hard-core gamers, then perhaps they can have substantially growth.  But, that is a lot of 'what-ifs' and we will just have to wait and see what exactly they do.

I can't believe that a $200 next gen XBox is coming within many, many years unless it is tied to a streaming service or something. M$ and Sony are both getting their chips from AMD, they are the same generation of hardware and both are just putting there spin on the internals from there. For example, it sounds like Sony is going in on high speed storage or at least some advanced buffering. This means, however, that their cost structures is basically similar (no way AMD is going to drastically sell to one cheaper than the other, they like keeping both as customers and also making money for a change). Gone are the days console hardware could be radically different - they are all basically x86 PCs with a custom OS now-a-days. So an at-launch $200 XBox Series XS (I guess, what in the hell is up with this naming scheme?!?) would be losing tons of money for M$. Near the end of the console generation is a lot more likely possibility.

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5 minutes ago, GrudgeQ said:

Gone are the days console hardware could be radically different

 

Maybe not totally gone.

 

😁

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4 minutes ago, GrudgeQ said:

I can't believe that a $200 next gen XBox is coming within many, many years unless it is tied to a streaming service or something. M$ and Sony are both getting their chips from AMD, they are the same generation of hardware and both are just putting there spin on the internals from there. For example, it sounds like Sony is going in on high speed storage or at least some advanced buffering. This means, however, that their cost structures is basically similar (no way AMD is going to drastically sell to one cheaper than the other, they like keeping both as customers and also making money for a change). Gone are the days console hardware could be radically different - they are all basically x86 PCs with a custom OS now-a-days. So a $200 XBox Series XS (I guess, what in the hell is up with this naming scheme?!?) would be losing tons of money for M$.

Yeah, I’m thinking for $200 it would have to be digital only and streaming only, as in no significant hard drive storage. When things become streaming only, I always have to wonder why you need a console at all beyond the controller, except maybe as some piracy safeguards with no actual benefit to the customer. 

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34 minutes ago, RetroAdvisoryBoard said:


Right.  And you only see the dichotomy you’re in.  Which is where a lot of people get hung up.  We have something of a formula for a successful game, a successful console.. and while that’s aimed to success, we have a hard time seeing the audience that model is unsuccessful at picking up or appealing to. I think that’s where most retro video game players are at.  They understand the nature of the market and what works in that market as concerns the examples they’ve seen.  But they haven’t seen something like this.  They factor in “people play mobile because it’s in their pocket” - which is part of the reason, convenience can’t be ignored. But I bet if you looked at phone location vs gameplay data, *most* of that gameplay is done in people’s homes during downtime, evenings, timewasters on a weekend.  And if you look at older people in gaming communities, you hear the same refrain off burnout, or no time to play the styles of games being put out.  Part of why they return to retro or mobile.  Easier to pick up and put down.

 

And while some might suggest “just put these games on a compilation disc!”, those have limited reach and attention.  They’re lost in thousands of options. The vast libraries of digital $10 games aren’t selling casual buyers into getting an Xbox, they SEE the AAA games in those aisles and top Amazon suggestions and top YouTube results.  Anything else is lost.  A separate system is a necessity in marketing to a new audience not in our “gamer” evo-system.  They’ll get it, will just have to see it play out to realize some of the potential.

The Amico is so much of an "un-console" console it makes my brain hurt sometimes, and I am probably classed as a "super-fan" or something. No reliance on specs, XBOX/Sony all about the TFLOPS; non-traditional controller, everyone ships with dual analogs & enough buttons & triggers to confuse an octopus; IE pays to have games developed, everyone else relies on unit sales to attract 3rd party developers; every Amico game is multiplayer, XBox/Sony foundational games are generally all single player; no online play (at least at first), online multiplayer is almost the exclusive form of multiplayer if a game has it; Amico is all couch-coop, couch-coop is a tiny fraction of the other consoles library; and Amico has no games past E10+, Sony, XBox & even Nintendo rely on adult games to attract teens & cater to older players. I have probably forgotten some others, but that is a good starter list of some of the differences. I don't have time for haters, but the confused - yeah I can see that all day if you are a regular gamer. Your world is being flipped upside down.

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6 minutes ago, Swami said:

Yeah, I’m thinking for $200 it would have to be digital only and streaming only, as in no significant hard drive storage. When things become streaming only, I always have to wonder why you need a console at all beyond the controller, except maybe as some piracy safeguards with no actual benefit to the customer. 

Good point, maybe a 'captive game service' might be a better term. In other words the console is $200 and plays games locally but games are selected from a service library and a limited number are downloaded at a time. Basically you are required to keep Game Pass in order for it to work. Not really sure how that would work, but for a $200 next gen, there would have to be some form of monthly fee to make back their money.

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For  Microsoft to release a all digital series s for $200. It will likely be underpowered. Some reports suggested it would be less powerful that the xbox 1 x. Which to me makes no sense.  Why not just make the 1 x all digital and sellnit for $200? Either way  it wont make any difference. The Amico is sooo drastically different to the way those systems present gaming.  The people that dont buy game consoles now are not going to buy these new ones either.  Trust me I know plenty of people that currently dont and wont. And I'm not speaking of a handful of people either.  Try a over a 100. That dont like gaming for the time it wastes, and alienates their families.

 

Did the Nintendo when it started shut down board games? Is it now? 

The people I'm talking about spend more time with groups hanging out and playing cornhole.  So why would they give a lick if a new xbox cost $200? 

They didnt want it then dont want it now. 

Edited by Relicgamer
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5 minutes ago, Relicgamer said:

For  Microsoft to release a all digital series s for $200. It will likely be underpowered. Some reports suggested it would be less powerful that the xbox 1 x. Which to me makes no sense.  Why not just make the 1 x all digital and sellnit for $200? Either way  it wont make any difference. The Amico is sooo drastically different to the way thise systems present gaming.  The people they dont buy game consoles now are not going to buy these new ones either.  Trust me I know plenty of people that currently dont and wont. And I'm not speaking of a handful of people either.  Try a over a 100. That dont loke gaming for the time it wastes, and alienates their families.

 

Did the Nintendo when it started shut down board games? Is it now? 

The people I'm talking about spend more time with groups hanging out and playing cornhole.  So why would they give a lick if a new xbox cost $200? 

They didnt want it then dont want it now. 

You've had conversations with over 100 people about them thinking video games alienate their families and waste time? People I've spoke to about video games either play Nintendo or PlayStation. I'm sure there's plenty of non gamers who think that way but I would never know because why would they even be talking about video games? Do you constantly bring up video games to people?

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43 minutes ago, Relicgamer said:

For  Microsoft to release a all digital series s for $200. It will likely be underpowered. Some reports suggested it would be less powerful that the xbox 1 x. Which to me makes no sense.  Why not just make the 1 x all digital and sellnit for $200? Either way  it wont make any difference. The Amico is sooo drastically different to the way thise systems present gaming.  The people they dont buy game consoles now are not going to buy these new ones either.  Trust me I know plenty of people that currently dont and wont. And I'm not speaking of a handful of people either.  Try a over a 100. That dont loke gaming for the time it wastes, and alienates their families.

 

Did the Nintendo when it started shut down board games? Is it now? 

The people I'm talking about spend more time with groups hanging out and playing cornhole.  So why would they give a lick if a new xbox cost $200? 

They didnt want it then dont want it now. 

Exactly, this is my rough VENN diagram of how I see the various platforms competing. Basically they really don't within a few small percentages of overlap. How many true hard core gamers are going to choose a Switch over an XBox/PSx? Nearly none. How many true casual gamers are going to choose a Switch? Nintendo fans would say 'all or lots' but they don't realize games like Super Mario Odyssey, Breath of the Wild, Super Smash Bros are *NOT* casual games - they are light, hard core games. The Pokemon S&S franchise probably comes closest to a true casual game that is a real system seller for the Switch because of it's limited 3d camera usage (only in the wild areas).

 

Of course gamers are not monolithic in the types of games they like and lots of people may own a Sony & a Switch or a Switch & an Amico or all three (or four). However the *core* audiences of these systems really don't overlap that much at all.

 

1126658919_VennDiagramofConsoles.thumb.png.9b849298a8e82f7f30a2d8c939dba157.png

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32 minutes ago, Juice said:

You've had conversations with over 100 people about them thinking video games alienate their families and waste time? People I've spoke to about video games either play Nintendo or PlayStation. I'm sure there's plenty of non gamers who think that way but I would never know because why would they even be talking about video games? Do you constantly bring up video games to people?

It's called observation - the only person beating people down with their conversations is you sniper trolling this thread. *blocked*

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Just now, GrudgeQ said:

It's called observation - the only person beating people down with their conversations is you sniper trolling this thread.

I just asked him a question because I'm curious. I'm a non gamer myself and I hardly talk about video games offline. How am I beating him down? He hasn't answered yet, why so sensitive? You sound a little paranoid to be honest.

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55 minutes ago, Juice said:

You've had conversations with over 100 people about them thinking video games alienate their families and waste time? People I've spoke to about video games either play Nintendo or PlayStation. I'm sure there's plenty of non gamers who think that way but I would never know because why would they even be talking about video games? Do you constantly bring up video games to people?

Im one of Jehovahs witnesses and its a common situation.  And there is 1.2 million of us in the United states and 8.4 million worldwide.  With that said many like myself do play the current consoles and will buy the next generation consoles.  But yes I was being conservative when I say  just over 100.  And no I didnt say I had conversations with a 100 but said I know their common concerns and thats why many  dont and won own current consoles.

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2 minutes ago, Relicgamer said:

Im one of Jehovahs witnesses and its a common situation.  And there is 1.2 million of us in the United states and 8.4 million worldwide.  With that said many like myself do play the current consoles and will buy the next generation consoles.  But yes I was being conservative when I say  just over 100.  And no I didnt say I had conversations with a 100 but said I know their common concerns and thats why many  dont and won own current consoles.

I would agree with you when Amico was under 200 but as a non gamer myself I wouldn't pay $250 unless it's a Founder's. I would buy a fishing rod, jump rope, ext. This should be taken into consideration, the price might be too high for non gamers considering all the non gamer stuff you can buy for $250

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31 minutes ago, Juice said:

I just asked him a question because I'm curious. I'm a non gamer myself and I hardly talk about video games offline. How am I beating him down? He hasn't answered yet, why so sensitive? You sound a little paranoid to be honest.

Also add that the main reason many of us dont play these games is that they want to do stuff together and limit time spent playing games. Current consoles do offer that but it has sooo much content thats not acceptable to them. They prefer to just avoid it out of convenience.  The Amico will likely fit them better. But thats just my observation 

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