Retro collecting 20 years from now

[derFunkenstein]

Who cares if you bought the game or not? If you're Genesis mini breaks or you forget your steam password, are you going to take those games off the SD card. No offense, but "I only play roms of games I own" is as dumb of a hill to die on as "physical copies only". And I'm pretty darn sure buying a game does not entitle you to download a rom from the internet.

 

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That still doesn't change the fact that I don't have room for all that stuff. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ And when I do buy carts, I buy cart-only. Partly because it's cheaper and partly because it takes up like 1/6 of the space for Sega systems.

 

I'm not saying I don't have the full collection on the SD card, but it's nice to just see what I own in a list.

 

Back on topic, it's fine that we can do that on today's 30-year-old hardware, but even the physical copies of new-today games don't have the full game on them. Someone earlier brought up Satellaview, but the SNES has no real copy protection. Until the PS4/Xbone have been hacked to the point that they can't be un-hacked by Sony and Microsoft (like the OG Xbox and PSP have, and apparently the Vita either has or will soon be), AND the update data is recovered/available, it's gonna be really hard to preserve that like classic console ROMs.

Edited April 10, 2019 by derFunkenstein

[CatPix]

That's me.

If I remember, the Satellaview data wasn't meant to be accessible by the customer. You point stand, but, again, piracy will crack protection. Why does Sony still push PS3 updates despite the last PS3 game released was FIFA 19 in September of 2018, and (apparently) the previous game were released in 2017 (not more than 5 of them)?

To crack down on piracy.

For updates, you just have to find a system with the game updated to copy it. Even if as of today, we can't crack it, you only need a copy of the raw, protected, possibly crypted data, to be able to crack it later. The important thing is to save that data as soon as possible to use it later.

The only way for Microsoft and Sony to prevent access to the update contents would be to simply nuke the data on the older consoles hard drives (like for example, deciding that any PS3 getting online after 2020 will get a destructive update wiping out the hard drive) and even then, you could STILL recover the erased data as they would probably just delete the file path and not rewrite over the whole hard drive. And that would still leave shelved PS3 (I take the PS3 as an example , but it works the same for Xbox360, One, PS4, etc.) intact with the game contents.

Basically it's doomed to happen... should people want to do it.

Edited April 10, 2019 by CatPix

[HoshiChiri]

As far as the likes of Stadia & the idea of streaming only games goes- I'm not worried about that yet for one simple reason... the American internet infrastructure SUCKS. If half the country can't get a good enough signal to stream their games, then it's not going to be successful. At least, not successful enough to take over the market. The cable companies who control the internet connections have no reason to help the likes of Google by improving service, becuase then people will just stream TV and not subscribe to cable anymore. We've got a few years of businessmen butting heads before game streaming can really settle in.

 

How I have arranged my "digital collection" is all "custom" and stuff. Years, decades even, of growth in the directory trees. And THAT is just like a wall full of vintage carts.

 

 

 

Not in anyone's head space but yours.

 

 

..and that's all that matters.

 

This is a very important sentiment! Just becuase the specific folks in collecting today value a physical collection doesn't mean everyone does. I guarantee there's plenty of parents, spouses, siblings and friends who don't see an amazing collection of gaming goodness... they see a pile of junk that cost way too much money. Someone with tubs of rare, vintage shoes would look like a hoarder to me if not for my understanding of their passion (the feeling, not the subject of.)

 

Collectors of the future may very well indeed enthusiastically show off their digital curations, with custom HDD holders and digital frames cycling through boxart or such, and other collectors will get it becuase they recognize the love of games- even if the form of expression's changed. It's about what matters to YOU, not someone else.

 

 

It's bizarre to me how the "wall of cartridges" has become THE signifier of YouTuber game rant credibility. I'm a little older than the core NES/SNES generation so I always felt a little embarrassed seeking out the latest games. Not these guys! Good for them, but did most people really aim for the complete set like this? Or did they have a couple of shoeboxes full of games, like how I imagine most Atari kids collected?

 

 

This makes me laugh becuase my Atari games literally used to be in a shoebox. My Colecovision games still are!

 

 

That's me.

If I remember, the Satellaview data wasn't meant to be accessible by the customer. You point stand, but, again, piracy will crack protection. Why does Sony still push PS3 updates despite the last PS3 game released was FIFA 19 in September of 2018, and (apparently) the previous game were released in 2017 (not more than 5 of them)?

To crack down on piracy.

For updates, you just have to find a system with the game updated to copy it. Even if as of today, we can't crack it, you only need a copy of the raw, protected, possibly crypted data, to be able to crack it later. The important thing is to save that data as soon as possible to use it later.

The only way for Microsoft and Sony to prevent access to the update contents would be to simply nuke the data on the older consoles hard drives (like for example, deciding that any PS3 getting online after 2020 will get a destructive update wiping out the hard drive) and even then, you could STILL recover the erased data as they would probably just delete the file path and not rewrite over the whole hard drive. And that would still leave shelved PS3 (I take the PS3 as an example , but it works the same for Xbox360, One, PS4, etc.) intact with the game contents.

Basically it's doomed to happen... should people want to do it.

 

Exactly- no system was ever meant to be hacked. It happens anyway- either becuase people want to access these older, unsupported games, or just for the thrill of seeing if they can. Even if Sony somehow tried to forcibly remove data from people's machines, they can't. I just bought a used PS3 from a thrift store cheap. Here's what I did with it:

 

Step 1: Hook up machine & make sure it turns on.

Step 2: Put in a game and make sure it loads discs.

Step 3: Check the hard drive's content for cool stuff.

Step 4: Upon finding personal data but no cool stuff, reformat system out of politeness to former owner.

Step 5: Connect to wifi to make sure it works.

 

I guarantee you, if there'd been something amazing on that system ("This guy downloaded P.T.!") step 5 would NEVER have happened- and Sony couldn't do anything about it. That's the collecting of the future- raiding used systems for data saved to hard drives back when it was available from the source, and putting it back out there for everyone to find. I could imagine people keeping two of each system- one to use stock & connected to the net, and one strictly offline to prevent any forced data removal. Depending on the hacks available, maybe 3 or 4 to allow access to different pirate servers for online play.

 

Collecting won't go away, the valuable part will just change.

[jhd]

Just like how today is full of retro fanatics who prefer using flash carts & ROMs, future collectors will simply grab patches from other fans.

 

Many years ago, I bought a boxed copy of Daggerfall at a thrift shop. The previous owner had downloaded various patches and updates to a floppy disk, which was included in the box (together with the original CD, of course).

 

Now, there were some subsequent patches that I needed to download, but the idea was very sound.

[Flojomojo]

Many years ago, I bought a boxed copy of Daggerfall at a thrift shop. The previous owner had downloaded various patches and updates to a floppy disk, which was included in the box (together with the original CD, of course).

 

Now, there were some subsequent patches that I needed to download, but the idea was very sound.

 

I can't remember if Daggerfall came with any "feelies," but nowadays (and for many years), Bethesda makes it available for free! I think that's a net improvement, especially since you can use it on modern computers with more reasonable control methods and graphical resolutions.

[Keatah]

Practically every new consumer demands digital downloads. Theyre not likely to take an interest in collecting even in 20 years from now. Most collecting happens because cartridges and the symmetrical look they sport when put on a shelf.

 

Why do you think that ? I dont fully agree with that.

 

[..]

 

This is what will happen with this generation 15-20 years from now. If they still have their ssytems that is great but, finding disc based media for mostly digital consoles will be very hard and the most desirable.

 

I would guess that today's youth will grow up with the understanding and preconceived notion that games are temporary or to be rented. In 1981 I had a small wall of cartridges, 200 maybe 300. Today I have the ability to get all the latest and greatest games but have little desire to do so due to all the problems with day one patching and marketplace flooding.

 

Optical media may be desirable and sought after in the future, but will it even work then? There's genuine bit-rot from corrosion or real actual bacteria that eats away at CDs and DVDs. The problem is more prevalent on DVDs however.

 

On a different but parallel note; CRTs and mechanical 5.25 floppy drives are out of production. And laser mechanisms used in vintage consoles are becoming rarer even only 10 years after the console is off-market. Despite having the technology to make the best CRT and 5.25 drive today it isn't being done. The best we can do is make replacements based on today's low-cost consumer tech. Like horrible 16:9 LCDs with even worse filtering and connectivity. And every micro seems to have a flash drive with megs or gigs of storage, but no mechanical drive replacement.

 

Too much focus on profit and everything has to be done cheaply without real craftsmanship being involved. Churn that dollar!

Edited April 10, 2019 by Keatah

[Keatah]

One of my ongoing target goals is to expand the range of PC software I can run. And yet, somehow, limit the amount of computers necessary to do that. I mean like having a 486 for DOS games, a Pentium III for Voodoo era games and later, and then one of today's rigs for everything after those Voodoo days. Currently it stands at 3 systems. And hopefully it will stay that way.

 

3 different PCs to cover 40 years is really stretching it IMHO, but VMs and DosBox and other emulators extend the backward reach of a modern i7.

 

I've long since converted all my store-bought and downloaded PC games to ISO images or WinImage floppy images and put them on a number of those 3.5" portable USB hard disks.

 

Naturally I don't keep them all hooked up at once. So I store them in a small elegant and classy in-wall cabinet with a glass door and hidden lighting. I've got 14 disks in there now with room for 6 more. And the beauty part is they aren't maxed out - like there's a 750GB unit only half full at the moment.

 

So that's my "wall of cartridges".

Edited April 10, 2019 by Keatah

[Flojomojo]

Have you tried PCem?

https://pcem-emulator.co.uk

[CatPix]

And every micro seems to have a flash drive with megs or gigs of storage, but no mechanical drive replacement.

For two reasons : floppy drives, even 5"25 or even 8", are marvels of mechanical precision. You can't have a shoddily assembled drive and hope it works. Because it mgiht work, but you would be stuck only reading the floppies made by this drive.

Making precision mechanical devices is still very costly, require several parts that require precise machinery... and how many people wanna stick to floppies?

 

I suppose that one big difference between the micro and the console world is that modding your system is almost an integral part of the micro culture, so while you always have people wanting to keep the possibility of reading original floppies, even those rarely see any issue of adding a fully digital drive on their machine to preserve their mechanical drives.

 

Also, before the advent of the 3"5 floppy (and even then) drives were built to answer the needs of each system. And it's not only just a format issue, like "Oh, an Atari ST can't read the formatting of an Amiga disk".

For example, with one driver (or utility?), you can make a Thomson computer read and write a FAT12 (MS-DOS and alike) floppy.

 

But on the other hand, you cannot write a floppy to Amiga format with a PC natively because the format is physically written differently and the ordinary PC-Standard drive cannot adjust to it. For example, Amiga drives doesn't write more tracks when presented with an HD floppy, but they slow down the rotating speed of the drive by half. A PC drive cannot do that (natively). Now, the Amiga drive CAN ajust to IBM PC standards but you need a driver first...

 

Also, while you could have floppy units for old computers, at some point, the floppies themselves are gonna degrade beyond any useability. First they will become unreadable, so you might rewrite them. But eventually floppies themselves will become unuseable from magnetic surface loss, or oxydation. So you'd need to get brand new ones. I think I heard that a Chinese companies kept making floppies after Sony gave up, but it's only HD floppies, when most collectors need/want 720/800ko floppies and 5"1/4. Or 3" floppies for Amstrad.

Oh of course we didn't mentionned the "exotic" standard such as 3", Quickdrive, Microdrive, etc...

 

And now for the last juicy part : even if floppies drives and floppies were still made... how do you write them?

Modern USB drives "emulate" a flash memory, so when you try to format it, the controller doesn't understand the instruction.

Older USB drives can do that, but they are that : older.

Floppy connector have been eliminated from most motherboards. I think that there is a real possibility that the next Windows version will totally eliminate even the possibility to recognize floppy drives.

 

So even if you have a modern drive, modern floppy... you still need a crummy old drive or computer to write them proper.

Of course at this point you can also make an adapter that will provide windows with a way to format and write floppies.

 

But at this point, how many money have you put into this? I can't really see the rebuilt floppy drive running for less than 150/200$, the remade floppy in the 25/30$, and the USB to floppy adapter for 50$.

So that's about 250$ for ONE floppy. Sure after that the price drops.

 

But on the other hand, a Gotek drive cost 25$...

Edited April 10, 2019 by CatPix

[Keatah]

^^^ that's a lot going on there. The world of floppies! ***

 

 

Have you tried PCem?

https://pcem-emulator.co.uk

 

It's in my emulation folder. And WinUAE is using it to emulate a Zorro bridgeboard. 2 emulators working together.

 

 

 

Many years ago, I bought a boxed copy of Daggerfall at a thrift shop. The previous owner had downloaded various patches and updates to a floppy disk, which was included in the box (together with the original CD, of course).

 

Now, there were some subsequent patches that I needed to download, but the idea was very sound.

 

I'm rather anal about exactly that. I go as far as getting older/multiple versions of some stuff too. I also chase after online documentation distilling it down to .pdf sometimes, or keeping images of the web pages if appropriate.

[+GoldenWheels]

Frankly I think you see the beginning of where this is headed already....stuff that is purposely made retro/retro style, and specifically made to BE collectible to keep the market going. New games for old systems with physical releases, limited editions, "collector's packs" with cheap toys inside...etc. Collecting not as a free form activity of gathering older things, but as an industry that feeds a collecting need in and of itself.

 

It's not something I am interested in.

[Punisher5.0]

People might be collecting accounts in the future. Trying to find PS4s with several digital titles still on it. That could be interesting.

 

Like others on this thread, I have shifted mainly to flashcarts. Its so much more convenient and its saved me 10s of thousands of dollars. Plus access to things id never have without one.

[Shawn]

..and that's all that matters.

 

Well then don't expect the general public to just go along with and accept your comparison to something it's not. In your own words you've clearly acknowledged that there is no comparison to be made. Have fun playing games however you like but don't assume those who also play said games but own them as they where presented originally on whatever form of media will find a likeness to your digital backups. You can put a pile of lipstick on a pig, but at the end of the day it's still just pork, no matter how you slice it.

[HoshiChiri]

 

 

I would guess that today's youth will grow up with the understanding and preconceived notion that games are temporary or to be rented. In 1981 I had a small wall of cartridges, 200 maybe 300. Today I have the ability to get all the latest and greatest games but have little desire to do so due to all the problems with day one patching and marketplace flooding.

 

Optical media may be desirable and sought after in the future, but will it even work then? There's genuine bit-rot from corrosion or real actual bacteria that eats away at CDs and DVDs. The problem is more prevalent on DVDs however.

 

On a different but parallel note; CRTs and mechanical 5.25 floppy drives are out of production. And laser mechanisms used in vintage consoles are becoming rarer even only 10 years after the console is off-market. Despite having the technology to make the best CRT and 5.25 drive today it isn't being done. The best we can do is make replacements based on today's low-cost consumer tech. Like horrible 16:9 LCDs with even worse filtering and connectivity. And every micro seems to have a flash drive with megs or gigs of storage, but no mechanical drive replacement.

 

Too much focus on profit and everything has to be done cheaply without real craftsmanship being involved. Churn that dollar!

 

The thing is- pretty much all of this applied 20-30 years ago. Blockbuster and other rental chains made it clear you didn't need to own media, you could just borrow it awhile cheap. The cartridge clone systems we have today didn't exist & weren't wanted. Tape-based media was being destroyed by cheap players and poor storage (left your casettes in the car on a hot day? Too bad!) The average hobbist couldn't get replacement parts without ripping them from other equipment- it's not like radio shack sold silicone button pads, for example.

 

When the CD-based market comes into its own, I fully expect people to find ways to make their own devices to fill the gaps left by old, failing equipment. The Seedi console may have failed, but another one will come along that won't. Mods to get light guns working on modern displays are already coming into existence. I'm sure there's some guy in china who'll start churning out aftermarket parts when the demand warrants a profit. (You're right on that front )

 

What I love is, everyone is handling their take on future preservation, so there's a wonderful amount of redundancy going on. One guy repairs old machines to run stock, another makes computer programs to run ripped software. Other folks get the old machines to run the modern ROM rips, sometimes retaining original functionality, sometimes not. Others still make brand-new machines and brand-new games- your old NES and copy of Mario 3 may rot away, but your new analogue nt & modern repro cart still work fine! It doesn't matter what happens down the line- someone's going to have a way to let us play the games. (And those who care will find a way to measure their worth against others by some volume of possessions.)

[Skippy B. Coyote]

I feel pretty confident that retro game collecting will still be a fairly mainstream hobby 20 years from now, though it seems likely that most collectors will be sticking to systems where the entire game is on the cartridge or disc since there won't be servers to download update patches or DLC from anymore. As far as I know the most current systems to have the entire game self-contained on physical media are the original Wii and 3DS, which (with a few exceptions) don't need any sort of downloads to run their games properly.

[Keatah]

Well then don't expect the general public to just go along with and accept your comparison to something it's not. In your own words you've clearly acknowledged that there is no comparison to be made. Have fun playing games however you like but don't assume those who also play said games but own them as they where presented originally on whatever form of media will find a likeness to your digital backups. You can put a pile of lipstick on a pig, but at the end of the day it's still just pork, no matter how you slice it.

 

We're vegans.

 

And many have switched to flashcarts - which is a rom collection or digital backup. And I don't really care what formats others game on.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Keatah

[0078265317]

Like all my VC games cannot be re downloaded if lost since the WII shop is no longer.

Edited April 10, 2019 by 0078265317

[atarilovesyou]

Can we just agree to make our opinions known without the obligatory backhanded-compliments?

 

If somebody is happy with physical media, so be it. Somebody else, digital is their bag.

 

No need to then suggest or imply that 'the others' have problems/issues/whatnot. It's boring, already.

[zetastrike]

Like all my VC games cannot be re downloaded if lost since the WII shop is no longer.

 

Not true. WAD files are your friends.

[Keatah]

Doom .WADs FTW!

[Flojomojo]

I like that WAD in Doom stands for Where's All the Data

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_WAD

[Skippy B. Coyote]

What I love is, everyone is handling their take on future preservation, so there's a wonderful amount of redundancy going on. One guy repairs old machines to run stock, another makes computer programs to run ripped software. Other folks get the old machines to run the modern ROM rips, sometimes retaining original functionality, sometimes not. Others still make brand-new machines and brand-new games- your old NES and copy of Mario 3 may rot away, but your new analogue nt & modern repro cart still work fine! It doesn't matter what happens down the line- someone's going to have a way to let us play the games.

Ya know, you're absolutely right about that Hoshi. If the way things are now in the retro gaming world is any indication of what the future holds then there isn't just one solution for how the games of today will be played in 20 years, there's a whole bunch of them. There are talented hackers backing up games and their associated patches and DLC digitally, still plenty of physical copies of games to collect, brand new clone consoles with the accuracy of FPGA technology, new parts for old consoles and folks who like fixing them, reproductions of games, flash cartridges and optical drive replacements, a bazillion and a half emulation options, and probably a dozen more ways to play old games that I didn't even mention.

 

Right now there are overwhelming amount of ways to play games from 20 or 30 years ago, and with retro gaming more popular than ever I see no reason to think that there won't be just as many ways to enjoy the games of today 20 or 30 years from now. Everyone's got their thing, and they're all great ways to preserve games for future generations to enjoy.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Jin

[youxia]

As per usual, this argument has gone binary: people conjure the negative basement-dweller collector stereotype with his wall-to-wall box filled game room, insufferable elitism and strange youtube rants and presto! - this means all the people who happen to like physical media are alike and should hang their heads in shame.

 

This is of course not very fair way of discussing things. There's plenty of reasonable people who simply enjoy the hobby of collecting - or perhaps just having - real stuff without being cartoon caricatures. This used to be true for every sort of media by the way, when I grew up visiting somebody would usually include checking out their bookcase and talking about stuff in it, borrowing, swapping, not giving back, arguing, making up - you know, things we do in real life. So, no, Mr Maddog - I really hope you earlier remark was a joke - I do not want to see your GOG/Steam screenshot, backloggery link or C:\games listing

 

Personally I have about 30 real games, some books, DVDs and vinyl and several terabytes worth of digital. I will always like to keep some real things around because while digital may be more convenient (and of course easier to acquire - I wouldn't steal a car after all) I also do enjoy the hard-to-explain mental kick coming from the physical objects. The fact that I also actually own them and can gift, lend or resell is an added bonus. And all the usual "arguments' such as that these things take up space, smell (sic!) or are "old" are rather silly.

 

So if you want to be a digital zealot it's fine and all, but going "my way is the only right way" is the other side of the coin of the "strictly physical!" stereotype I mentioned in the first paragraph. I mean, who needs museums when we have Mona Lisas as jpegs, right? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[HoshiChiri]

This is of course not very fair way of discussing things. There's plenty of reasonable people who simply enjoy the hobby of collecting - or perhaps just having - real stuff without being cartoon caricatures. This used to be true for every sort of media by the way, when I grew up visiting somebody would usually include checking out their bookcase and talking about stuff in it, borrowing, swapping, not giving back, arguing, making up - you know, things we do in real life. So, no, Mr Maddog - I really hope you earlier remark was a joke - I do not want to see your GOG/Steam screenshot, backloggery link or C:\games listing.

…

 

So if you want to be a digital zealot it's fine and all, but going "my way is the only right way" is the other side of the coin of the "strictly physical!" stereotype I mentioned in the first paragraph. I mean, who needs museums when we have Mona Lisas as jpegs, right? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I don't know about you, but I can't afford to fly to France, so I'm pretty darn glad for the photos & jpegs- otherwise I wouldn't know what the Mona Lisa looked like. I'm also glad for the museum that keeps the original safe for those who can go see it.

 

I'm very firmly in the Physical Media camp, to the point that up to this year I largely avoided any digital only games (I still don't have a Steam account). On the flip side, I can't fault anyone for preferring the space-saving, low maintenance digital option. It's not an anti-social thing either- instead of going to someone's house to discuss what they have on their bookshelf, you can chat online or look over a digital collection on a phone at school/work/etc, and make plans for a multiplayer session later. You & me might not care too much about a Steam screenshot- but other people might. And it's perfectly fine for them to- as long as everyone's having fun with their games, why worry about how they play them?

[spacecadet]

Collectors even today are still a very small subset of the gaming population as a whole. It's always been that way. I'm sure that in 20 years, there will be just as many collectors as there are today - they're just going to have a harder time of it.

 

There are "digital preservationists" in various mediums already. That's essentially what future game collectors are going to have to be.

 

Things are going to change but I think that oddly, this digital black hole that games are going to fall into will keep certain things that you wouldn't expect - like "rarity" - much the same. In the future, there will be games that exist on certain consoles that are no longer available for download, and people will have to work on how to preserve those games. No doubt there's going to be a community involved in cracking and redistributing what will then be "classic" digital-only games from those consoles that still have them installed (and still work). And just as today, there will be many people who argue that this is piracy, and those people will only recognize those consoles with original, paid-for copies of those games (that are otherwise completely unavailable) as "legit" copies.

 

I do think there's going to come a point when if you want to make sure most older games can be played by anyone at all, you're going to have to dump them, crack them and make them available somehow. That's *going* to happen, though; it's not a question - it's already happening. The only question is how you view the people who do that. But I liken it to people who use emulation today, which is pretty much the same thing, the only difference being that you *can* go out and buy a physical Atari 2600 game if you want, which to me makes most present-day emulation actually worse than what future game preservationists are going to have to try to do.

 

Anyway, so the act of physically collecting objects in the form of games will probably cease, by necessity. But the practice of "collecting" actual *games* will not; it will just take on a different form. The mentality will be the same, just the means will be different, and the realities of a non-physical realm for digital data will push the entire sub-culture further underground.