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What about the Commodore community?

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Commiseration about California. Native son of a native son kind of thing. I did most of my undergrad at Chico State when the town was 15k permanent residents and college had 15k students. I have a friend that lives there now and she says at 100k population things are becoming intolerable. Stuff like 'Red lights are considered a suggestion so you risk your life driving.'

 

I think this California thing and my Commodore comment are meant to reflect the same phenomena. If you were a malcontent with mental problems, California was the place to go. I mean no talent, no skills, go to Hollywood and become a star. Lots of people migrated to the C64 for the same anti establishment type reasons. I'm smarter then you, I have a better computer then you, you are inferior to me. Once again, they have some of the most talented, generous people around, just that a few of them bought into the tribal mentality. If there was never an Atari I would probably use a C64 for my main hobby computer. Heck, if there wasn't an Atari or C64, I would probably keep one of my CPM systems at the ready! I think I wouldn't own any flavor of Apple though. :)

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I'd love to have an Apple ][ or a ][GS, but not a Crackintosh. "Computers for the least of us" IMNSHO. I'd rather have a PC with Linux. It may not be slick and polished, but you have to at least demonstrate proof of intelligence to operate one!

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Commiseration about California. Native son of a native son kind of thing. I did most of my undergrad at Chico State when the town was 15k permanent residents and college had 15k students. I have a friend that lives there now and she says at 100k population things are becoming intolerable. Stuff like 'Red lights are considered a suggestion so you risk your life driving.'

 

I think this California thing and my Commodore comment are meant to reflect the same phenomena. If you were a malcontent with mental problems, California was the place to go. I mean no talent, no skills, go to Hollywood and become a star. Lots of people migrated to the C64 for the same anti establishment type reasons. I'm smarter then you, I have a better computer then you, you are inferior to me. Once again, they have some of the most talented, generous people around, just that a few of them bought into the tribal mentality. If there was never an Atari I would probably use a C64 for my main hobby computer. Heck, if there wasn't an Atari or C64, I would probably keep one of my CPM systems at the ready! I think I wouldn't own any flavor of Apple though. :)

 

Commodore was the most popular, so the userbase will be louder and therefore amplify its worst elements. It was also the default choice of computer of that era. So you ended up with a lot of users who didn't know a lot about computers, probably more so than other brands.

 

But I don't think C64 was an anti-establishment statement, quite the opposite. The people who wanted to make a statement that they were smarter/better/more refined seemed to gravitate towards Apple II first then Mac. The cost made it a status symbol, and pricey PCs wouldn't do because IBM was too corporate

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I'd love to have an Apple ][ or a ][GS, but not a Crackintosh. "Computers for the least of us" IMNSHO. I'd rather have a PC with Linux. It may not be slick and polished, but you have to at least demonstrate proof of intelligence to operate one!

Proof of intelligence to operate a computer? Really?

Are you such a snob, that operating a computer should be wizardry?

I rather have it be an appliance like a car or a tv.

Edited by JoSch

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Bad example, I prefer proof of intelligence for folks to operate a motor vehicle, lately it seems there are far too few to pass that test, the highway is littered with the scars and wreckage from folks who would fail such a test.

 

I wanted to agree with you about how a computer should be easy to use, but the car analogy makes it difficult to do so.

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Bad example, I prefer proof of intelligence for folks to operate a motor vehicle, lately it seems there are far too few to pass that test, the highway is littered with the scars and wreckage from folks who would fail such a test.

 

I wanted to agree with you about how a computer should be easy to use, but the car analogy makes it difficult to do so.

I meant to the skills to use a car in itself, not the skills to navigate traffic

But I do not get, why you can't agree with me, because you think one of two analogies given is (in your opinion) bad.

Edited by JoSch

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because my post is also bad it would seem ;)

There are also folks whom can not operate a modern smart TV. What can you say...it is what it is.

 

I agree the computer should be able to be used by all camps, and the Atari 8 bit seems to do that pretty well compared to all the other offerings in that era....

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Normies should stick to tablets and smartphones. :) One look at any customer laptop choked with malware and biscuit crumbs tells me that the desktop operating system should not be further simplified. :)

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Proof of intelligence to operate a computer? Really?

Are you such a snob, that operating a computer should be wizardry?

I rather have it be an appliance like a car or a tv.

Hello, I see you own a Mac. I'm sorry if my words offend you. I looked at Macs BiTD and found them lacking and nothing has occurred since then to change my mind. OTOH, I'd rather have a Mac than a computer with a spyware OS.

 

If I'm any kind of snob, I'm a competence snob. I think that people that use computers should know something about them beyond where the power switch hides. I think that car owners should know something about how cars operate as much as how to operate a car. The owner should be capable of doing basic servicing of their car. I think that home owners should be able to do basic repairs of their most valuable asset.

 

I think that computers as appliances belong in appliances.

 

Computers from my point of view are intelligence amplifiers if used properly. If not used properly, they are just overpriced browser support systems.

 

I tend to agree with Jonathan about most normal users, including my wife who needs 24/7 tech support to operate a computer.

 

Having said that, I can be quite incompetent in numerous areas as I can't program in Assembler on any CPU, nor can I do bodywork/painting with any level of skill. I also can't play Jazz on a guitar, but if I could muster the lung power and work around the nerve damage in my lips, I might be able to play on my coronet.

Edited by Geister

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Back then the mentality of the masses was if a computer had good graphics and sound it was a game machine or "toy." For computers to be taken seriously they had to be boring like CP/M, PC, Mac or Apple II. It took the Amiga in '85 to snap the masses out of that mentality.

Edited by Gunstar

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Heard that argument a lot way back in school from students who owned Apple IIs. Since when were they ever using their computers to do anything seriously or business related ? They were playing video games just like we were albeit on a different platform. But that didn’t stop them from making derogatory comments like “you only own a Commodore “ or “Games computer”. It was a coping mechanism because they knew we had access to the best quality games on the market at the time.

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Reading this and Super Mario thread is kinda fun, in a time-machine way, transporting me to the teenage years of endless tribal bickering.

 

Then I realize that most posters here are actually from 30-50 y.o. age bracket, super serious and that even back in the day we were never as hostile and condescending. At this point reading stops to be fun and becomes depressing.

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Most here chose Atari back in the day. We thought it superior.

But, all these home computers, even the Sinclair/Timex ones, did give everybody the ability to use a computer.

Not being dependent on getting some time share of a computer, etc.

I heard a lot stories lately about the enlightment of POKEing around and getting the instant feedback.

So, I really don't care what the BEST computer is, because that always depends on your taste and needs.

Commodore helped create the computer world we are in today, as have Apple, Atari, Sinclair, MITS, Tandy and the lot.

Edited by JoSch
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I think MANY home computers helped create our world of computer literacy and usage for many projects but there were also many that offered little or nothing, we had a few Forth based computers for sale at Maplin during the 'Great Computer Overindulgence' and these machinces were non sellers because they were as friendly as a poke in the eye. I think its fairer to say that mostly the economically successful computers shaped stuff in the home market. I started out on a ZX80 (kit) back then and it gave my first steps into computing and I have to say it was most confusing initially, all the things you saw on the box looked great, doing them on the other hand was not as fun as *I* hoped but it kick started the computer learning side, BASIC (which I still don't like) was a good start out because it was almost understandable what these functions did and there was a simple logic for most, something that many other languages confused me with.

 

But the ZX80 made good money and it got many of us off to a fine start home wise, so certain machines set the standards or got top spots because of userbase numbers, not always because they were technically more advanced than the others but this for me was ok as variety inspired creativity in the masses of coders. I respect the users of these other machines I never adopted and the impact many of them have had as machines, to pick a best of is pointless for me, I prefer to use them and spend as little time arguing about their technical spec.

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My first experience with computers was Apple II's in school. I took a BASIC programming class. My first home computer was a Timex/Sinclair 1000 because my parents refused to by me one, so I had to earn money and buy one myself, and one day I found a bargain bin at a department store for the then discontinued T/S 1K, and I got it and the ram pack, printer, cassette recorder and a dozen tapes for about $50. Then a couple of years later I had been saving up for a "real" computer, and an Apple IIc was the apple of my eye, because of using Apples in school. But then Jack Tramiel bought Atari and released the ST and XE line.

 

I ended up with a 130XE because I didn't listen to others, I had my own mind and I look at the specs of a computer, and the 130XE had the same 6502 and 128K memory as the Apple IIc for a fraction of the cost, and I'd already had enough money saved to get it. Everyone, including the salesman I bought the 130XE from tried to talk me out of it, but I wasn't listening because I knew the specs and knew they didn't otherwise they wouldn't be warning me away! I always laughed to myself, thinking what a bunch of mindless followers.

 

IMHO, the best decision I ever made in my computing life in hindsight because it was afterwards that I found out just how much more powerful the 130XE was, with it's custom chips, to an Apple IIc. The one error in my judgment was that I thought Jack Tramiel was going to be as successful with Atari as he had been with Commodore, and the C64 was going to be destroyed in the market by him. But that was the least of my logical reasoning anyway. The Atari had enough support for me anyway, if not as good as it's rivals. But I have never looked down on or hated any other computers, and I like all vintage computers now, I just prefer the Atari because of my history, plain and simple.

 

I was almost a C64 guy, because at the time I was saving for an Apple IIc, my father was finally looking into getting a computer for his work in his home office, and of course I would have had access to it when he wasn't using it. He was originally planning on getting a C64 from advice from a friend, but then a co-worker who sold PC clones on the side talked him into a boring PC, and I was determined to have a 6502 based machine since that was what I knew from school. So I ended up forging ahead with my own savings instead and eventually landed on the 130XE.

Edited by Gunstar
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There is that mindset "One ring to rule them all." Human condition that I don't seem to possess.<sic> Probably one of the reasons why Tolkien resonates with so many people. Doesn't mean there will be a clear winner with only one car manufacturer, just that there is that element in the market that thinks everyone should buy a Ford.

 

I'm old enough to be on the cusp. My first computer was something I built from a kit. I modified it so I could do automatic data collection in my job. Practically got lynched at work for that one. Everyone from co workers who were Luddites to mainframe IT guys rained on my parade.

 

Then came IBM circa 1982: Crushed everyone. It was the only computer you could have in the work place. A few years later an area director called me into his office because he new the problems I went through called me into his office. He had an AT with EGA graphics and demoed it for me while saying ~What a piece of crap. He wanted to use a Mac like he had at home, but even at area director level he wasn't given a choice.

 

Kind of like comparing Belgium to Poland in WWII. One of my friends whose father was in the Belgian army said his father got on his bike and rode to the troop assembly area. By the time he got there, the war was over and was told to go back home.

 

We will probably go through the same thing with smart tvs. I mean I have sampled everything from Kodi to Roku to ... Freaking great one and all. I can't see why everybody that can afford one does not have a smart tv! Doesn't mean I am a fan of any one other then the one I happen to use ATM.

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. I can't see why everybody that can afford one does not have a smart tv! Doesn't mean I am a fan of any one other then the one I happen to use ATM.

In my case I don't own a smart TV because with my Xbox 360 connected, it is a smart TV, I just download all the TV and streaming apps that do the same thing as the ones built in smart TV's. Same with people that have modern Bue-ray players and such, when the smarts are built into a device you connect to the TV, you don't need them in the TV!

 

Does your smart TV also allow you to play Xbox 360/One or Playstation 3/4 games on it too? Without the console? I bet your smart TV cost more than one of those consoles too...

Edited by Gunstar

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Reading this and Super Mario thread is kinda fun, in a time-machine way, transporting me to the teenage years of endless tribal bickering.

 

Then I realize that most posters here are actually from 30-50 y.o. age bracket, super serious and that even back in the day we were never as hostile and condescending. At this point reading stops to be fun and becomes depressing.

This.

 

I never got the tribalism. We're all a bunch of nerds who love what we grew up with, there is no 'best' system. Dropping those artificial walls is good for everyone, and in my case, introduced me to several consoles I disliked at one point but love now.

 

 

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In my case I don't own a smart TV because with my Xbox 360 connected, it is a smart TV, I just download all the TV and streaming apps that do the same thing as the ones built in smart TV's. Same with people that have modern Bue-ray players and such, when the smarts are built into a device you connect to the TV, you don't need them in the TV!

 

Does your smart TV also allow you to play Xbox 360/One or Playstation 3/4 games on it too? Without the console? I bet your smart TV cost more than one of those consoles too...

If you are hanging other stuff on it, pretty much. Inputs for everything from HDMI to composite. Right now, listening to 14 gigs worth of music stored on my cellphone over WiFi. I got a cheap TV, something like a 32" RCA, less then $200. Kodi was on my RPi IIRC. First ROKU was a dongle for dumb TVs.

 

What I really like about the smarts is NO COPPER. Can connect to just about anything over WiFi for projecting whatever is on another device using the same WiFi. Ever lose a remote or not have LOS? I have my cellphones programmed to act as remotes. Really trick. I don't know if they make a PS2 to smart TV apk or native, but if they did I would certainly connect it that way. Console sitting at arms reach with the tv on the wall or shelf with no wires to trip over.

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If you are hanging other stuff on it, pretty much. Inputs for everything from HDMI to composite. Right now, listening to 14 gigs worth of music stored on my cellphone over WiFi. I got a cheap TV, something like a 32" RCA, less then $200. Kodi was on my RPi IIRC. First ROKU was a dongle for dumb TVs.

 

What I really like about the smarts is NO COPPER. Can connect to just about anything over WiFi for projecting whatever is on another device using the same WiFi. Ever lose a remote or not have LOS? I have my cellphones programmed to act as remotes. Really trick. I don't know if they make a PS2 to smart TV apk or native, but if they did I would certainly connect it that way. Console sitting at arms reach with the tv on the wall or shelf with no wires to trip over.

But OMFG - with those devices, "the man" is listening to your every word, watching your every move. Society is doomed, etc.

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