ultrasteve Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Backers are in for a real treat when this lanuches... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Honk honk! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Backers are in for a real treat when this lanuches... Screen Shot 2019-05-30 at 10.58.40.png so - for greyfox - this has all the makings of the quickest complete overhaul in (Atari) history! i think - the above being true, you have a responsibility to confirm: ■ the cover was amended ■ any items included without permission of owners (incl software companies) were removed ■ all grammatical errors have been corrected ■ all wiki text removed and replaced with your own compositions ■ all "professional proof-reading" complete and actioned - with all revisions made Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Well Greyfox, you proved many of us , myself included, very wrong and you will always have my utmost respect for that and wanting to do a project of this nature. It has already come at something of a cost. .a few of us deciding now is the right time to retire from this community, friendships strained and possibly broken..emotions ran high throughout the thread and outside. I do not think i have ever seen such a reaction as i have to this project and certainly not 1 smash through so much critiscm at times. I have no idea what happens next with the book process, but i would hope you do take time out and go through ALL the points raised here by all of us...contributors and potential backers who just couldn't quite bring ourselves to get behind it. You were honest enough to admit you were bloody stupid to use cover art without permission and have taken more than enough heat over that decision, but people tend to forget you were not the 1st to do this and probably won't be the last. As you yourself know it was not all that long ago another Atari based publication was caught using art taken from the Internet and the artist spotted it and a deal between 2 parties had to be reached...this is why your decision to do something similar caught me by surprise. That publication also featured Official Atari games and those from E.A and i suspect no permission was sought, it got away with it because it was far lower profile than yours. I am relieved to find in latter stages of your campaign, you enlisted the help of a prominent and experienced individual. ..you would be wise to submit your work to him before sending it to the printers, as even someone like myself who's grammar etc is simply horrendous, spotted numerous school boy errors on your campain updates. In the short period of time i knew you, you proved you were a man of your word and were willing to swallow some pride and learn from our mistakes..Atari Gamer Magazine looking back at it was a bloody shambles ☺ come on it was..We stumbled around like blind painters looking for colours, but we learnt and delivered something far better for ST Gamer magazine and you've still time i hope to rework aspects of this book. Both of us take critiscm for grammar, punctuation etc and rightfully so. But we are not:Writers, book producers etc, at best we struck lucky with interviews and misc research. We cannot pass our very raw material over to a team from say Future Publishing and have a full time editor clean it up, art department source imagery, add boxouts etc and that's been understood and accepted for previous projects but this book has the faith and money of an awful lot of people riding on it now. I do not envy you that and nor do i wish to be credited in the book. My closing advice would simply be..delay it a few weeks, get it looked at by some professional people, keep your backers in the loop and just deliver the bloody book the real Retro community deserve and expect to get. Mine is a selfish view.. I pray this is a huge success, establishes you as a credible force in the market. Why? Because it's the only way that bloody coin op art book you've been teasing us for years now..will happen. If this fails..it fails. Not sure if your an Xcom fan, but i will end with a quote from the game... We will be watching. @Mclaneinc:The Squirrel quote..ahem...NUTS..is what i took away from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 AH...Nuts...Been called worse (if that's what it was about) I'll play his game even more now As for Darren, I do hope he reads and replies to Brenski's checkmark... Darren has the funding, now do the fixes and give these people the book they deserve please... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) Backers are in for a real treat when this lanuches... Screen Shot 2019-05-30 at 10.58.40.png As for Darren, I do hope he reads and replies to Brenski's checkmark... Darren has the funding, now do the fixes and give these people the book they deserve please... @Mclaneinc - i think you missed the post at the top of the page. what's done appears done...and too late for any other changes. still - ironic that even the "launch" message : "we are funded and ready for lanuch" [sic] has a typo - i've even searched google maps to see if "Lanuch" was the town or city of the launch party investors/backers: are you seeing this? do you still think you'll get your money's worth? i hope for your sakes' you do. Edited May 30, 2019 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) Yep, I saw the post and casually glanced at it.. Sheeeet... I'd not be brimming with confidence now...Such a bloody shame.... Thank you for the heads up.... Perhaps a Lanuch is a Southern Irish stuffed item? Edited May 30, 2019 by Mclaneinc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) Enough now. This thread should remain open so when the time is right, those who backed the book can raise any and all complaints and or praise for the product they funded and Greyfox can return and deal with those comments in a full and transparent manner as a responsible adult. Finding fault with how it got over the line, a bloody update post...that's not our concern, it has not had our money. WE raised our concerns about the grammar, punctuation, spelling, cover art, games chosen, art design, every aspect was covered. We made our feelings very clear as to why we ourselves were not helping fund this, why we had not gotten involved, why having gotten involved we wished to now distance ourselves from it. Over 600 people still decided it was worth risking and backed it and it's now a reality. This is no longer a feedback for a revised phase II book and phase II kickstarter campain. Greyfox either takes onboard what's been raised and puts book on pause and in hands of some far more professional people and does not go to print until some serious changes have been made... Or he ignores everything , it goes to print within weeks and he suffers the consequences. That's it..that's the only 2 options from here on in. Warning backers stage has passed, those birds have indeed flown. We did not back it. He does not have to answer to us. If he takes the fast track option then he deserves everything he gets when the fallout hits. But until this plays out to the book being in the hands of paying customers, there is nothing to be gained by dredging up the same concerns. For the sake of the community on here, everyone needs to step back and sit this our for a few weeks. It's doing nothing but creating divisions within here and beyond. At least give the guy credit for his past, he has not as far as i am aware taken money for previous advertised products and not delivered..they had their shortcomings, yes, but they arrived. There was no call for that take the money and run comment earlier at this stage. Edited May 30, 2019 by Lost Dragon 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) Lost Dragon, you may have mistaken the Southern Irish stuffed item as a dig, no its a joke re Irish (what I am) and Scottish food, it (the miss spelled Launch) sounded a little like a Bannock, a bread type item that I used to enjoy as a lad stuffed with cheese ot in my case, sausages.. As said, I'm as Irish as Darren, just from different parts.. Edited May 30, 2019 by Mclaneinc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Lost Dragon, you may have mistaken the Southern Irish stuffed item as a dig, no its a joke re Irish (what I am) and Scottish food, it (the miss spelled Launch) sounded a little like a Bannock, a bread type item that I used to enjoy as a lad stuffed with cheese ot in my case, sausages.. As said, I'm as Irish as Darren, just from different parts.. That had no relation to what i was getting at. It's the continued snipes at Greyfox now the book has funded and thus is beyond any sphere of influence this thread might of had. So Greyfox has posted another update that would shame my English teacher's of old...yeah far from a good advert for the book i grant you, but the advertising campain is finished and the guy is consistent. Clearly his own personal issues with grammar etc was insufficient to phase an awful lot of people. It's also clear to anyone who followed his updates thread he took on a partner in the form of Fusion Books. Fusion have a lot of experience and products under their belt, i have purchased enough of them to be confident enough to say Greyfox should of partnered up with Fusion from the very start, not just get to assist with the marketing of the kickstarter campain, told him that last year, but he made his own choices, just as he will to decide what to do from here on in. My problem with this thread as it is now, is a select few of us, myself very much included, have been very vocal about where the book went very wrong. We all had seperate interests, but we all basically wanted the best possible product, i think that's fair to say is it not? I do not feel Greyfox was being made a victim, we just basically took him to task and asked WTF he was thinking? WTF had he done?. But outside of here, the greater Retro community made it's choice, plain and simple. If the book falls short of their expectations, i would wager they are more than capable of taking the issue up with Greyfox, either in public or private and being refunded if they feel that let down. It's between HIM and THEM from here on in, it really is. He knows what needs changing and why.. He clearly is not afraid to reach out to people like Fusion Books for their skill sets and has time to reach out to others and turn this project around. We are not at stage where he's annouced books shipping to customers as of early next week. Thank goodness we are not to be blunt. My view is very simple, he has 1 chance to make good on this and one only. Squander it and he will find himself rightly taken to task over not doing so. But as non-backers, it's no longer our going concern. We invested nothing (bar time) into it, we are not going to be out of pocket what ever happens and the thread needs to lie quiet until the end product is out there and those who's money went on it have a chance to express how they feel. We had our say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Thanks LD, you only had to say it was nothing to do with it, no need for another wall of text telling people off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) We had our say.You had your say. And I’d be a lot of those 600 backers have never seen this thread, but rather became aware of this project through the incessant hawking of it on all the Atari- and retro-oriented communities across Facebook and through emails from Kickstarter. Having just read this thread for the first time last night and today, all I can say is what a shit-show. Good luck to the backers. Edited May 30, 2019 by DrVenkman 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6BQ5 Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 I woke up to the news the project was indeed successfully funded. Congratulations to Darren! He's got a steep hill to climb now and maybe with a bit of a pause and a reset he will make it. As this thread pointed out, there are (were?) numerous technical issues that need to be addressed but none of those issues are insurmountable. I don't know about the hidden inner workings and relational issues between contributors. The Kickstarter page shows the number of backers for the various pledge levels. When I do the math something doesn't jive. The campaign raised €34,649 but the pledges don't add up. Backers Amount Sub-total3 € 5.00 € 15.001 € 10.00 € 10.0050 € 25.00 € 1,250.00369 € 29.00 € 10,701.0054 € 35.00 € 1,890.0044 € 39.00 € 1,716.0017 € 39.00 € 663.0027 € 39.00 € 1,053.0017 € 39.00 € 663.0014 € 39.00 € 546.0012 € 45.00 € 540.0050 € 100.00 € 5,000.00 € 24,047.00 Am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) commentary for what it's worth, I've done my best to try and keep at least 9 different people from walking, running away, or leaving the forum over the tone, tenor, and style (or lack thereof) of posts demonstrated in this thread... this is just a handful to be sure as I am far from knowing everyone. It can be a real handful with the butting of heads thread after thread with the same couple/few detractors that walk hand in hand across the threads, some with tongues of silver, some not so much. I've been harsh and left some with bad feelings myself. (this is an example of a sentence that can be parsed two different ways) We have the added issue of more languages involved as well. That leaves even more open for misunderstanding with word order, phrasing, and sometimes masculine/feminine issues in the making a of conversation. As a whole, a picture forms when a person reads across the threads and starts becoming more additive as it builds. They bleed together in the mind. How that lack of compartmentalization and the degree one can or can't compartmentalize such is innate to each person. However, with little exception, if you talk a different opinion or thought from those whom seem to enjoy endless verbal splitting of hairs and seem to be english majors skilled at parsing in a way that is always advantageous to their position. You do get the sense that the goal posts are always moving. You feel as though your words don't mean what you say after the newly parsed response has it's spin laden understanding of it posted. It sounds so good people post likes on it. Someone may take those likes as people for or against them as well. No matter how the above observations are taken... It is just the tip of the feelings/thoughts of incredibly talented, and some returning stars from 40 or more years ago who have told me the above, or that this isn't going to be the place for them. They have found the environment tedious, argumentative, and sometimes down right infuriating. Most people don't need that in their life. They want an enjoyable hobby. They want to come home. They are aware of their short comings. Many did some early work on the machines and helped blaze the way for what came later. They know their work was not up to todays standards and don't need people coming down on the earlier works. What seems to make them happy is when code is shared, or someone builds on their work making it so much better. Some folks will ask that not be done as well. If you honor their wishes all are happy and it's a win win all around no matter the situation. The reason are wide and varied. I am sure we want all the people who come this way to find a nice place to come back to. Slowly getting into the swing of things. Not all nerds are this intense or anal... let's get back to laid back Edited May 30, 2019 by _The Doctor__ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ultrasteve Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 The Kickstarter page shows the number of backers for the various pledge levels. When I do the math something doesn't jive. The campaign raised €34,649 but the pledges don't add up. Am I missing something? Kickstarter campaigns allow you to add voluntary amounts of money to your pledge. Often, creators encourage extra funding with 'perks' as was the case here. So those campaign page amounts only show the baseline pledge, not what an individual may have pledged over and above that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Nerd, probably, anal, sometimes, apologetic when I'm wrong, always, friendly usually...Like cliques, NO, Like people who sway with the popular notion even if it changes and wrongly, no... Laid back, normally...Like fools, never.. I wear my heart on my sleeve... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 OMG!! The book that this book plagiarised, plagiarised as well ? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 haha...and they all ripped off this one: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ultrasteve Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 @Mr Robot: I hope you're joking, but I'm taking the inference that you're not from your tone and use of emoji. Feel free to correct me if you were. I think you know that's not the same thing. I have respect for a lot of the work you produce, so a little respect for those of us who point out genuine cases wouldn't go amiss. Perhaps the author/publisher/artist of the Atari Color Graphics book got permission from Atari to create a design that was similar, perhaps they didn't. The difference here is that we know Darren didn't get permission, but was still going to go with it anyway. The cover discussion was the cornerstone of many of the further questions because it demonstrated a wholly unprofessional approach to what he was going to be doing with £30,000 of money that was not coming from his own pocket, and highlighted other errors and obfuscations. I don't understand why you're trying to undermine the evidence now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) Amazing, some folks take the time to point out faults and limitations of what has been seen from a kickstarter that Darren does not fund and who gets most of the flack, the guy who made a kickstarter look like a Benny Hill Show or a few good individuals who tried to help... Guess who.. Sometimes I wonder..I really do... JoSch kept on that Darren was being attacked but that wasn't the case as noted by a moderator yet people are acting like he was...Jebus Edited May 30, 2019 by Mclaneinc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Thag Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 I've stayed out of this thread for a reason, even though I agree with most of the criticism aimed at the kickstarter for this book. I'll say this. They way a lot of folks in this thread reacted makes me pretty sad. Honestly, it's why I've dialed back my participation with online forums, social media in recent years. The fact that a lot of people are more interested in being right than preserving the camaraderie, friendships etc. formed here over the years makes me sad. Plenty of people with legit criticism in this thread were rude, condescending and overbearing. A lead dev for RespQt is stepping down from the project over the way people reacted to him. Sure, I think most of those people had legit criticisms of the above kickstarter, but the way it was handled, while not being actual bullying perhaps, was not polite or respectful. I know it's just a sign of the times, and how the internet works these days, but I remember a time when this sort of things was the exception, rather than the rule. I get we're all passionate about our hobby, but sometimes, I think communities like this would do well to remember that it's the PEOPLE, and the connections between them that make this place great. Being right.... should never be more important than that. Not a lot of us Atari PC folks left in the world, you know? Losing several over a kickstarter dispute... sucks. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8Bitjunkie Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Do I smell a whiff of squirrels? ` ? Sorry 8bitJ, I don't get it? Just keen to understand... Don't care if its a little dig well, Mclaneinc, i just popped in to read the whole thread as a whole story... ...and somehow i thought... could "JoSch" and "emkay" possibly be the same person? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6BQ5 Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Kickstarter campaigns allow you to add voluntary amounts of money to your pledge. Often, creators encourage extra funding with 'perks' as was the case here. So those campaign page amounts only show the baseline pledge, not what an individual may have pledged over and above that. Gotcha. So, the campaign received €10.6k above the usual pledges. That's impressive! The average contribution across 665 backers is about €52. Nobody can say there isn't a market for this kind of book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 @Mr Robot: I hope you're joking, but I'm taking the inference that you're not from your tone and use of emoji. Feel free to correct me if you were. I think you know that's not the same thing. I have respect for a lot of the work you produce, so a little respect for those of us who point out genuine cases wouldn't go amiss. Perhaps the author/publisher/artist of the Atari Color Graphics book got permission from Atari to create a design that was similar, perhaps they didn't. The difference here is that we know Darren didn't get permission, but was still going to go with it anyway. The cover discussion was the cornerstone of many of the further questions because it demonstrated a wholly unprofessional approach to what he was going to be doing with £30,000 of money that was not coming from his own pocket, and highlighted other errors and obfuscations. I don't understand why you're trying to undermine the evidence now. I thought the plagiarism claim was overblown and merely a case of piling on, I said so at the time. I have joined in with pointing out what I felt were legitimate issues with the campaign, I never thought the cover was one of those things. It wasn't a good cover but I don't think it occurred to the author that people would be upset about him reusing elements of the original design in his. When that was made abundantly clear to him, he put up his hands and said (paraphrasing here) "yep OK, didn't think it was a problem but fair-dos, I'll redo it". That's a fair response to me. In fact today I drew some alternative art elements for him to use and have offered it to him on Twitter. he has yet to respond but he's free to use them with my blessing if he likes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) So a dev can be as rude and condescending and EXTREMELY argumentative and he gets special privilege with people.. Seriously, that's clique mentality...... I love our devs to bits, I've never waived in support of them in the 20yrs I've been here except in 3 occasions, Pete Meyer, Sal, and Darrens creation...Each time for failing to be honest or calling names about groups of people or making directr DEEPLY personal comments..But hey that's ok, its only little old non dev me... Makes me want to be sick to death of the place at times.. Edited May 30, 2019 by Mclaneinc 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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