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Atari : A Visual History Book is now LIVE on Kickstarter


Greyfox

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Ive backed the book and am looking forward to it.

 

This thread is very depressing reading. The level of righteousness about copyright is ironic given I would assume everyone in the community has software they dont own, me included.

 

 

Yeah maybe I have, but whatever, life is too short to read pages and pages of this stuff.

 

i'd suggest that there's "pages and pages of this stuff" in repsonse to posts like yours above. you're not the first (in this thread) to counter the copyright argument - and I doubt you'll be the last. :)

unfortunately, it's completely normal to defend something one has chosen to back financially. however, when the evidence stacks up against it, objectivity is also called for.

 

i think it's far easier for those NOT backing the book to remain objective - because they don't have a horse in the race. non-backers are saying what they see, backers are saying what they want to see,

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Im not defending it because Ive backed it. Im just saying Ive not the energy to spend this much time worrying about all the supposedly negative things people have pointed out. You guys carry on doing so and Ill enjoy a book that may not be perfect.

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I just hope that IF the book happens and its no different then I do hope people will remember that it was claimed as ready to print by Darren so not one post of all this would have affected the book so not to blame us..

 

We obviously truthfully hope its not like that..

 

The interesting thing is that if the backers have not seen this thread, they actually expect it to be what the Kickstarter advertised. If it's changed, they may cry foul.

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I wrote this on Facebook in response to the req for a tldr, maybe it will help people coming to this late in the day.

 

TLDR:

* Some people who were contacted by Darren to contribute felt used by him and discarded when he was done with them.
* €34,000 is way more than required to print 600 copies of a book in the format proposed.
* The layout is 'lazy' and 'amateurish'.
* Inconsistent title coverage due to not seeking any rights from IP holders. No first party titles.
* Incorrect box art.
* The cover was copied and badly modified from another book.
* Poor grammar and spelling from Darren in communications lead to little confidence in the quality of the content.
* Darren says the book is complete and just needs printing but all the promo material shows repeated 'action biker' reviews, lorem ipsum placeholder text, interviews copied from atariarchives & body text copied from wikipedia. This makes people feel the book is not complete and suspicious of the amount of effort that has actually gone into it and how much copied content will remain.

All of these things make people feel that rather than being a passion project from an experienced book producer it is more likely that this is a cash grab with a shoddily thrown together product.

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I'd just like to personally adress this point:

 

* Some people who were contacted by Darren to contribute felt used by him and discarded when he was done with them..

 

 

 

Speaking purely for myself as a contributor and someone who in the early days of this book put in an awful lot of hours in reaching out to industry people on Greyfoxes behalf and contributing material which i have given my full permission for Greyfox to include in the book.

 

 

Whilst it is true that during the course of the books creation, Greyfox and myself found ourselves at very polar ends of the spectrum as to the direction the book itself was headed (game choices, lack of depth to key games featured, choice of industry people approached and desire to go it alone, rather than partner with an established and professional partner and more besides)...and i have asked for my name to be removed from the book as a contributor...

 

I do not feel used or discarded or wish any ill feelings towards Greyfox in this or any future venture of his.

 

I very much hope my contributions are used (having been looked over by a professional editor) and those who have backed the book find they add value to it.

 

Regarding the issue Mclaneinc has raised regarding people unhappy with the final product coming to this thread to raise grievances over it with "us"...

 

If your unhappy with any contributions i was responsible for, my sincere apologies, but every attempt was made to involve as broad a canvas as possible , when it came to getting industry people involved and the questions were intended to generate responses more deserving than the type where the answer simply was...it has been so long ago, i honestly cannot remember, as whilst as true an answer they might be, they do not make for interesting reading.

 

 

It is my deepest hope the Backers get the book they deserve and Greyfox can understand and appreciate my decision not to back the project and offer the advice on what should be done now the book is funded.

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If an actual book gets produced, in this day and age, I can't imagine it being a super money maker or cash grab... real printed books even when slightly popular are often a break even prospect at times these days. If this is also a digital distribution etc etc... might do a bit better. Who knows...

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This aspect also needs clarity as well.

 

So having done a very basic search into other kickstarter projects looking at other platforms, i came across the Sega Dreamcast Year One kickstarter, another Unofficial book and whilst surprised not to see any actual Dreamcast coders interviewed, this was mentioned:

 

 

There will also be a gallery with all box art for PAL releases during this time (and some NA and JP only releases) as well as a timeline with an overview of the period covered in the book.

 

Games being covered in Year One are:

 

Sonic Adventure

Power Stone

Crazy Taxi

SoulCalibur

Toy Commander

House of the Dead 2

Sega Rally 2

Sega Bass Fishing

Virtua Fighter 3tb

Blue Stinger

Armada

Godzilla Generations"

 

 

So curious choices in there for a start, Blue Stinger was one of the first DC titles i purchased and regretted , but has he sought permission from Sega, No Cliché, Capcom, Activision, etc for the imagery to be used in a gallery?

 

Godzilla alone seems a very sensitive I.P as Sega had to make changes itself to Revenge Of Shinobi when putting it out on the Sega CD compilation as they had used Godzilla (and Batman) character design for end of level bosses with out permission.

 

And he also focuses on Pal only artwork with a few exceptions it seems, so could that be classed as * Incorrect box art.?

Edited by Lost Dragon
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Maybe it can be reprinted as the book’s Introduction. Apropos, without the authors’ permission.

:P

You would also have to have Rob Hubbard step forward at live music events now saying tonight i will be playing some of my legendary C64 tunes , the ones i cough, rearranged from Synergy (Master Of Magic and Zoids), Trans X (Commando loading music), Cabaret Voltaire (I, Ball)..

 

 

Rob was far from alone of course...boot up C64 Turrican and it's title screen music is from the Transformers Animated Movie..

 

 

Yie Ar Kung Fu uses Jean Michel Jarre Magnetic Fields and think Hubbard uses a J.M.J track on C64 Chain Reaction.

 

Combat School..Galway doing i want to be your drill instructor

 

Mastertronic with Thriller music ripped off.

 

Imagery is just the tip of the proverbial ice berg.

Edited by Lost Dragon
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Wow, what a thread :-o I backed the book although I found it rather expensive, but then there aren't that many Atari books around and "Atari Gamer" had been quite decent (except for one article that would have needed some more editorial oversight. Not up to the quality of Excel Magazine, but good enough for me.

 

I wouldn't say I don't care about Darren violating the copyright of a 30-year old book's cover design but let's not be overly strict with this. If the owners of the copyright care, they can sue him. I won't.

 

I will not judge the book by its cover but wait for it to arrive and then I'll pass my verdict.

 

Well to be fair we never judged a game by it's cover or advertising

 

 

https://www.digitalspy.com/videogames/a801530/13-video-games-that-stole-their-covers-shamelessly-from-movies/

 

 

I remember the Bob Wakelin Gryzor cover well, as controversial as the phallic imagery on Athena and Konami with Metal Gear on the NES..

 

Was not aware of IK+ imagery mind you.

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And having looked into the issues surrounding the NES Visual Compendium which Nintendo put the brakes on at 1 point during it's kickstarter (it appears permission was sought from Nintendo UK but Nintendo America were the ones that had the campain stopped until issues were resolved, but i am only going on what's been claimed)..

 

Nintendo Of America objections in full:

 

 

The copyrighted material includes images and fictional character depictions from Nintendo's video games, including but not limited to, U.S. Copyright Reg. Nos. PA0000273028, supp. by PA0000547457 (Super Mario Bros.); PA0000427614, supp. by PA0000547456 (Super Mario Bros. 2); PA0000563454 (Super Mario Bros. 3); PA0000356140 (The Legend of Zelda); PA0000427613 (Zelda II – Adventure of Link); PA0000254906 (VS. Excitebike); PA0000260315 (VS. Hogan's Alley); PA0000583907 (Yoshi(NES)); PA0000254151 (VS. Duck Hunt); PA0000366687 (Ice Hockey); PA0000356141 (Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!); PA0000564771 (Punch-Out!!); PA0000356142 (Metroid); and PA0000115040 (Donkey Kong). Publication of this book will further infringe these and other copyrights owned by Nintendo.

 

 

This Kickstarter project makes unauthorized use of Nintendo's copyrights as noted above. The description of the book states that it is 'mainly visual', and the campaign shows pages of the book which consist simply of large screenshots copied directly from Nintendo's video games.

 

 

 

 

This campaign also makes use of a mark that is confusingly similar to registered trademarks owned by Nintendo. Specifically, the project's creator is using a modified version of Nintendo's 'Official Nintendo Seal' mark (protected by U.S. Trademark Registration Nos. 3114368 (Class 16), 3117154(Class 28), 3173562(Class 9), and 1570911(Classes 16 and 28)) and Nintendo's "Original Seal of Quality" mark (protected by EU Trademark Registration No. 3475977 (Classes 9, 16, 28) to promote this project.

 

This use of Nintendo's intellectual property may confuse Kickstarter backers into thinking this project is sponsored or licensed by Nintendo, when in fact it is not.

 

 

The latter being the parody of the Nintendo Seal Of Quality was never going to be well recieved, but was only on the kickstarter campain and changed before campaign ended.

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LD, you trying to write your own book in this thread ? :)

Far from it.

 

Just following up on what i had showcased many pages ago regarding issues others had faced with their own kickstarter campains drawing the attention of major players over what can be considered fair use..and indeed in the case of the NES book, it raises and interesting point of it's own if Nintendo UK had given permission but Nintendo of America were the ones who issued the legal document and the book itself contains imagery from Nintendo of Japan.

 

Forgive me here, but was not the subject of obtaining full and proper authorisation for the use of imagery used in kickstarter funded book campaigns not the hot potato of this thread not so long ago?.

 

 

I'm aware of 2 similar Dreamcast kickstarter funded books due to arrive later this year..

 

1 worked on as an unofficial book the other being done in full association with Sega but both feature the same Sega and Activision I.P's , both feature interview with Bernie of Sega of America

.

 

 

But i have yet to see backers being warned the unofficial book might not of had permission to use said imagery ..

 

 

Are we as a community not going to give kick funded books covering Sega and Nintendo the same scrutiny as Atari?.

 

I'm sure many of us owned machines by them, as well as Commodore, purchased software with music that had been plagiarised by people we now see as legends of SID music and had cover art and advertising art plagiarised from the world of cinema.

 

I'm just wondering why there's been so much attention on Atari and it's imagery being copied potentially as early as the 1970's and whom it itself appears to have copied imagery from the world of cinema at that time.

 

The examples listed in the posts and links above merely highlight just how rife plagiarism has and continues to be to this very day.

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I'm just wondering why there's been so much attention on Atari and it's imagery being copied potentially as early as the 1970's and whom it itself appears to have copied imagery from the world of cinema at that time.

 

The examples listed in the posts and links above merely highlight just how rife plagiarism has and continues to be to this very day.

 

I was one of the people making a big deal about the plaigiarism of the cover art, and while at this point I agree it's beating a dead horse, I have one last thing to say which I think is new to the conversation.

 

I wasn't so upset about the legalities of the appropriation as I was the ethics and character issues. The author bills himself as a graphic designer, and was clearly inspired by the "Atari Graphics" book from the 80s. He could have created his own original design using the 80s book as inspiration (creative people do this all the time). He chose a literal reproduction. To me, that says either a) he's too lazy to produce his own creative work, or b) he's incapable of creating his own original work that can measure up to the inspiration. Neither one of those is a good look for someone trying to promote a self-published book.

 

After he ackowledeged the plaigiarism and vowed to replace it with an original design, I thought that was the end of it until I saw the copied cover still being used in advertising. To me that says his apology was insincere, and displayed a certain amount of dishonesty to the public and to the backers. Again, not a good look for someone trying to promote their product.

 

As to the issue of plaigiarism (that happened on all fronts) in the 80s, I would note that a) it was the beginning of the computing age, video games were an infant art form and the standards for what was considered "borrowing" at the time were considerably looser than they are now. b) To say that plaigiarism in the present day is OK because it happened BITD is the "two wrongs make a right" logical fallacy and so is not a valid argument.

 

OK, I promise to stop beating the horse now.

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As to the issue of plaigiarism (that happened on all fronts) in the 80s, I would note that a) it was the beginning of the computing age, video games were an infant art form and the standards for what was considered "borrowing" at the time were considerably looser than they are now.

 

I'm not sure that this is correct given the massive amount of litigation that has been generated around lookalikes and playalikes in the home computer and gaming worlds. I mean, the PC/clone Reverse Engineering Patent Wars lasted YEARS, and all the video game companies were always suing each other over some real or imagined copyright infringement. Intellectual property rights in the computer industry have been hotly contested throughout the development of home computers/gaming, and I don't see any evidence that things were "looser" in the '80s. The difference between tech and the classic arts is that it's much easier to prove the provenance and ownership of code and to track down the thief who stole it rather than just claim that you were imitating or developing a subjective "style". I'm not disagreeing with your overall point in this discussion, though. :)

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If you click on the Digital Spy article link, you'll find plagiarism went right on going from the 1980's up until a mere 3 years ago.

 

They showcased:

 

Prototype 1992

 

True Crime:Streets Of LA 2003

 

Alone In The Dark 2008

 

Liberators 2016.

 

I agree 100% that Greyfox should of used imagery of his own and i don't buy into the wishing to pay homage line anymore than i do having god awful A8 games covered just for nostalgia reasons.

 

My point is, plagiarism wise, if the forum is going to start focusing on the ethics of imagery theft as it were, we cannot suddenly decide to overlook what major players did back then as it was a different time back then as there is no convient cut off point.

 

On a different point, but something that niggled me..

 

 

I've just been reading an Amiga coffee table style visual book recently, borrowed a copy after seeing a few reviews of it on Y.T.

 

 

Big feature on System 3 where it tells us Dominator reviews were overwhelmingly positive...and quotes a line from just 1 magazine, C+VG

 

 

Cobblers they were

 

Scores in mid 70's from main C64 magazines

 

28% on Amiga from Amiga Format , 60% (dropping down to 30% on re-review) from C.U Amiga.

 

I hate this revised history approach just so people can secure interviews for books or magazines.

 

The other niggle was for a book supposed to sit on a coffee table and showcase the best Amiga pixel art (i owned an A1200 for a number of years) why on earth mix in with the stunning high resolution imagery, awful, pixelated screenshots that did the Amiga no favours?.

 

It seemed a really strange choice asthetics wise

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A further confession

 

Despite never owning a Sinclair ZX Spectrum, i have just ordered a Visual Compendium book on it, the interviews and Oli Frey art contained within it were of such high quality i had to have it (and it was not as expensive as the C64 or Amiga ones ).

 

I therefore feel no longer qualified to speak of quality Atari 8 bit games.

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After he ackowledeged the plaigiarism and vowed to replace it with an original design, I thought that was the end of it until I saw the copied cover still being used in advertising. To me that says his apology was insincere, and displayed a certain amount of dishonesty to the public and to the backers. Again, not a good look for someone trying to promote their product.

 

 

Greyfox's last word on this just didn't make any sense on any level but left me with an impression the cover will remain as-is.

 

 

I have managed to approach the author once more and that actual publisher of the book permission granted as a homage to their product and Atari art style in general or this will be declined for permission. This is not obtainable as I've now sent about 6-7 emails to them from my workplace so assuming that emails are dead or these people are the imagery is been changed and the decision made regardless of the outcome a new book cover will be, thanks to the people here that have called it out for what it is. This will and has had zero impact on the project or its funding, I've admitted my wrongdoings and have take steps to ensure that this is all addressed and I am not obligated to showcase this imagery here other than to my backers in due course. You'll just have to wait and see what happens, won't you?

 

 

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I read it as if matey boy does not get back to him, he will have to produce a new cover, but it will only be showcased to the backers of his book via future updates rather than us on here as we have been acting like Judge And Jury or was that Judge Judy?

 

It was this part:

 

"I've admitted my wrongdoings and have take steps to ensure that this is all addressed and I am not obligated to showcase this imagery here other than to my backers in due course. You'll just have to wait and see what happens, won't you?"

 

Probably a UK thing, but after reading it, the childhood image of someone taking his ball home after a kick about in the park saw someone get tired and teasy, sprang to mind.

 

Jumpers for goal posts and all that.

 

 

Edited by Lost Dragon
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If anyone wants a better-run Kickstarter based around vintage stuff (in this case, based on the 1979 pen & paper RPG Traveller) here you go: only 2-1/2 days left to go, sitting at $137K raised on a goal of only $15K, and at least $30 will get you a full PDF of the game rules. The creator of the project is the author of the original game and much of the supplementary material created in the last 40 years. :)

 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/traveller5/traveller-fifth-edition/

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