Atari : A Visual History Book is now LIVE on Kickstarter

[JoSch]

Yeah, you are correct: The bullies are above criticism and call out the victim for the back lash.

[Mclaneinc]

Josch, if you don't think better should have came from a man who makes publications for a living then more fool you..

 

This isn't bullying, its getting a product better than the fake thing advertised....

 

You really are just arguing for the sake of it as per normal...I doubt Darren feels bullied....Anyone would think you were getting the printing contract?

 

Never seen such devotion to a product proved to be so flawed...

 

Here, I have a 2 page history of Atari on a napkin, yours for 30 quid...CASH of course...And yes its jest and Darren's would not be like that but you just keep on running with this hard done by guy routine...Its pretty sad,,,

[Guest]

Yeah, you are correct: The bullies are above criticism and call out the victim for the back lash.

 

 

there is no bullying - except in your mind. people disagree with you - they disagree because there are some very evident quality issues with the book.

 

if you want to go ahead and buy the book, no one will try to stop you...but if the "complete" book (as advertised) ever arrives, be prepared for disappointment upon excitedly opening your package. at least you won't be able to say "no one told me".

 

what i find confounding is this: you've read/seen and heard of the self same issues other have, yet you continue to support the book unconditionally - almost to the point of promotion.

 

i bear you no ill-will at all, but sometimes Jochen, taking a step back will help you to see the (pulped) wood for the trees.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Guest

[jaybird3rd]

I agree with the sentiment of this post. However, it is always a possible substandard product before it is released.

Fair enough. I changed it to "(potentially) substandard" in my post.

[jaybird3rd]

Yeah, you are correct: The bullies are above criticism and call out the victim for the back lash.

We do not tolerate bullying here. I haven't read every post in detail, but as far as I can tell, nothing that has happened in this thread can reasonably be considered "bullying." If there is a specific example of a specific post in which anyone is being "bullied," by all means post a link to it, or click the "Report" button under the post to report it to the moderating team, and it will be dealt with appropriately.

[Mclaneinc]

To be honest I think considering how late in the day it is for the Kickstarter that the thread be locked, people can still see and back but no more utter dribble from JoSch. I don't see a single bit pf traction from what he claims yet never deals with what the issues are apart from saying "Darren might have hard a hard days work" or the like..Its utterly silly.

 

Having a conversation with someone who listens and responds as per the theme is one thing, having a conversation with a person that just does not listen, ignores the facts and then claims 'bully' just isn't sensible.

[JoSch]

 

 

there is no bullying - except in your mind. people disagree with you - they disagree because there are some very evident quality issues with the book.

 

if you want to go ahead and buy the book, no one will try to stop you...but if the "complete" book (as advertised) ever arrives, be prepared for disappointment upon excitedly opening your package. at least you won't be able to say "no one told me".

 

what i find confounding is this: you've read/seen and heard of the self same issues other have, yet you continue to support the book unconditionally - almost to the point of promotion.

 

i bear you no ill-will at all, but sometimes Jochen, taking a step back will help you to see the (pulped) wood for the trees.

You don't get it. I know, that people disagree with me. That is not my point. I object to the way, many issues were raised against the book and not against the raising issue in the first.

And what I also object to, is that people are sacrosanct of criticism if only they raise an issue. If one has the right to criticise, then I also have the right to criticise that person for their criticism.

It also cuts both ways.

The bullying - in my opinion anyway - is threefold:

1.) Unfair, overbearing and "This is the way it can play out" criticism against the book and Greyfox.

2.) Raising issues, that were already discussed at nausea, again and again.

3.) All against me, because I had the audacity to criticise the criticiser. Accusation and insunations against my person. Again and again backtracking to stating that it's legitimate to raise issue, while ignoring my repeated statement, what my objections are.

 

I'm listen to you all, Mclaneinc. I don't see any of you listening to me.

Not wanting "no more utter dribble from JoSch" is exactly an example for bullying. Wikipedia has the following to say about relational bullying:

"This is any bullying that is done with the intent to hurt somebody's reputation or social standing which can also link in with the techniques included in physical and verbal bullying."

I never (at least that I remember) accused anyone of "utter dribble" or calling them names. I always tried to argue.

[Guest]

You don't get it. I know, that people disagree with me. That is not my point. I object to the way, many issues were raised against the book and not against the raising issue in the first.

And what I also object to, is that people are sacrosanct of criticism if only they raise an issue. If one has the right to criticise, then I also have the right to criticise that person for their criticism.

It also cuts both ways.

The bullying - in my opinion anyway - is threefold:

1.) Unfair, overbearing and "This is the way it can play out" criticism against the book and Greyfox.

2.) Raising issues, that were already discussed at nausea, again and again.

3.) All against me, because I had the audacity to criticise the criticiser. Accusation and insunations against my person. Again and again backtracking to stating that it's legitimate to raise issue, while ignoring my repeated statement, what my objections are.

 

I'm listen to you all, Mclaneinc. I don't see any of you listening to me.

Not wanting "no more utter dribble from JoSch" is exactly an example for bullying. Wikipedia has the following to say about relational bullying:

"This is any bullying that is done with the intent to hurt somebody's reputation or social standing which can also link in with the techniques included in physical and verbal bullying."

I never (at least that I remember) accused anyone of "utter dribble" or calling them names. I always tried to argue.

 

you quote me, then cite someone else as attacking you. there is so much wrong with your statement above.

 

i'll address three points:

■ if you're going to "criticise the criticiser" then it's not about just disagreeing for the sake of it (is this the right room for an argument?") - it's about backing up your counter-claims with actual facts. so far, ALL of the comments levelled against the quality/legality and written word contained in the book appear completely justified. you wish to criticise back? then produce actual facts (you can't) to counter these statements.

■ re: your relational bullying comment: regardless of what Mclaneinc may/may not have said - you can never actually know his intent. therefore, your claim is (by default) unfounded.

■ no one is "against you". i think as i said above - take a step back and look at things. people are "against what you're saying" - it's not personal, it's about the substance of the opinion stated. it's wrong (in this case)

 

take a step back and look at things objectively, rather than subjectively - you may be surprised at what you actually find there.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Guest

[JoSch]

Yes, I did quote you. It was an entry point in my argument. Then I gave the example, jaybird wanted.

That my argument is wrong is purely your point of view, which you can't be bothered to OBJECTIVELY point out.

 

To address your points:

1.) I did. But I was ridiculed.

2.) Oh you mean, because I don't know this intent, I have to let slide his attacks on me? What can be misunderstood with "no more utter dribble from JoSch"?

3.) In this thread almost nobody was arguing WITH me. Everybody else argued against me.

 

You always fall back on "objectivity". Objectively, nobody of us is a copyright lawyer. Everybody here argues their subjective point of view of copyright laws with all our (mis-)understandings of it.

What you call objectivity is just the little window each of us has in such a complex matter as copyright laws.

But I guess, you also won't get my argument.

[Mclaneinc]

The way it is with you Josch is that if someone dares do what you have decided is Ok and that is to criticize the critisizer then you call bully....FACT.

 

Talking dribble applies because of statements like the one I highlight and sadly your posts re this are full of them..You through a huge wobbly when asked if you had any involvement even though I explained that I almost had and people like Last Dragon who DOES HAVE were not being lambasted for it. I also privately PM'ed you so to not make it part of a thread explaining my issues and you chose to ignore it and then say I was a bully yet the PM proved who in fact was really getting the poor end of the stick.

 

As always you choose like a politician to only comment on the bits you like and ignore the rest.

 

The book has been proved to be less that n satisfactory...FACT....Its been proved to contain unfinished content despite being called ready to print...FACT...Its got spelling mistake, wrong references and just cut and paste from Wikipedia...Fact...And a lump of other stuff but yet you see it as a barrage against Darren. Darren would be the first to say business is business and this was not a labour of love, its a business proposition.

 

You keep bringing my name in to it, are you trying to say I am trying to destroy the kickstarter, that's YOUR implication it seems...Is that what you are saying JoSch?

 

And as a personal note, talking dribble is a pretty decent thing to say as a point of critique compared to some real life comebacks....Stop making things seem personal and attacking while you seem to be trying to fit me up as something I'm not just to please this rather odd argument you have.

 

Unbelievable...I have privately explained stuff, ignored, tried to be kind and apologetic if you took things wrongly early on, ignored...ANd now, look its Mclaneinc Mr Jaybird, he's a really bad man..

 

Seriously...

 

I hate putting people on the ignore button but if you don't get a grip you will be added...Its not a threat,, its a bit of relief for me...

[jaybird3rd]

Yes, I did quote you. It was an entry point in my argument. Then I gave the example, jaybird wanted.

You made an insinuation of bullying in this thread, yet the only specific example that you cited (the post by Mclaneinc) was written after the insinuation was made. In that post, your arguments were described as "utter dribble" (which in this context is synonymous with "nonsense"), and you were described as being "unwilling to listen" and "ignoring facts." I don't see this as bullying: nobody was making threats, nobody was spreading rumors, and because these comments were characterizations of your arguments and of your mode of arguing and not remarks about you personally, I don't think they can reasonably be considered name-calling or making fun, either. You may disagree with or dislike the opinions and counterarguments that you have received in this thread, but that does not make them bullying.

[JoSch]

I dont care anymore. Just go on objectively asserting your point of view on bullying as the truth. I dont want to deal with this moving the goalposts all the time.

See you not so soon.

Edited May 29, 2019 by JoSch

[Mclaneinc]

This is the Mayor in Robocop who has taken hostages, he says "I don't care what the count was, I want to win"...

 

I thank Jaybird for reading the situation for one and all but I have no joy from this....Sad day in the forums..

[8Bitjunkie]

Do I smell a whiff of squirrels? `

[6BQ5]

There’s a bit less than two hours left. North, Central, and South America are going to sleep now. The rest of the world will be waking up soon and it will be to them to ultimately decide the fate of this campaign. About 40 - 42 pledges need to trickle in at $32/each for this endeavor to be successfully funded

 

Good, bad, or indifferent, this campaign is definitely one for the Atari history books.

[Alatari the Steadfast]

I was a backer of this project, but then decided to withdraw for reasons similar to jaybird3rd.

 

The problem is I have never bought anything from Darren before, and therefore had to decide based on what was presented on Kickstarter. Now maybe I was wrong, and all the problems will be fixed and it will be wonderful. In that case I might regret backing out. However, if I am unhappy then I am out of luck - there are no refunds.

 

This didn't pass the smell test for me. Some of the crowd funded projects I have backed have turned out great, while others were a total disaster. The product either didn't ship or was substandard. I have learned the hard way to be cautious.

 

I thank those here on this forum who have pointed out these issues. If the Kickstarter doesn't succeed but the problems are fixed I might reconsider it again in the future...

[jaybird3rd]

Looks like it just squeaked past the goal! A few large pledges, totaling over €800, came in at about 20 minutes before the deadline.

[ultrasteve]

I think that will probably be someone who has a certain level of involvement in the campaign getting it over. I hope all of the backers get the book they think they should, now.

[Mclaneinc]

Yes, wholeheartedly agree...I do HOPE this gets Darren to delay the book and give the people who pledged exactly what they deserve...No one wants anyone getting sub standard which is exactly the whole point of the thread if people think about it rather than think it was a Darren bash.

 

The people in general who made comments were asked to be part of the book but were not happy, that HAS to tell you something if nothing else..

 

I hand on heart hope that the book gets the extra love it needs and people love it, I still hope if Darren does that, that he makes something for his time..I'm not bitter..

 

My only BUT is if the book does go out to the printers as is, I hope people express their dislike, not to us but to Darren...

 

PS, I wonder if JoSch was one of the big final donations just to make a point?

 

Personally I say good luck to him if it was, if you truly believe in something that much then put your money where your mouth is and may he genuinely get the book he wanted if it was him..I may not like his style or arguing / not listening but he sure loved the project.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Mclaneinc

[Mclaneinc]

Do I smell a whiff of squirrels? `

 

?

 

Sorry 8bitJ, I don't get it?

 

Just keen to understand...

 

Don't care if its a little dig

Edited May 30, 2019 by Mclaneinc

[Greyfox]

Hi everybody,

 

Just wanted to drop by and say thank you all, for those of you that believed in the project and supported it. With over 665 backers strong and incredible support from a great many factions within the retro gaming communities and focused digital marketing and social activities have allowed this project to be realized and be extremely successful

 

Even though it's received a lot of negativity it was nice to see most of you have pledged for the book and thank you all again and for those you that have shown glowing concerns from day one. All concerns raised or observations although most of them without foundation, will be getting addressed, rechecked and redone accordingly, I set out to produce a nice book and that is what is going to happen and everyone that has supported the book will get it and will strive to make it a roaring success after the book has been released.

 

I've asked for this thread to be closed as it is no longer relevant to the project now. I won't be returning to Atari Age like a great many that themselves have left recently and after this project is completed there will be no further Atari related products from myself or Greyfox Books

 

Kind regards

Darren.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Greyfox

[Fred_M]

Hi everybody,

 

Just wanted to drop by and say thank you all, for those of you that believed in the project and supported it. With over 665 backers strong and incredible support from a great many factions within the retro gaming communities and focused digital marketing and social activities have allowed this project to be realized and be extremely successful

 

Even though it's received a lot of negativity it was nice to see most of you have pledged for the book and thank you all again and for those you that have shown glowing concerns from day one. All concerns raised or observations although most of them without foundation, will be getting addressed, rechecked and redone accordingly, I set out to produce a nice book and that is what is going to happen and everyone that has supported the book will get it and will strive to make it a roaring success after the book has been released.

 

I've asked for this thread to be closed as it is no longer relevant to the project now. I won't be returning to Atari Age like a great many that themselves have left recently and after this project is completed there will be no further Atari related products from myself or Greyfox Books

 

Kind regards

Darren.

 

Congratulations Darren,

 

I really hope you have listened to our concerns "although most of them without foundation" . I think the a8 community deserves the best.

 

I hope this topic will NOT be closed, because I would like to hear from other AtariAge members what they think of the book when they have received it. It is relevant for me/us.

 

All the best!

Edited May 30, 2019 by Fred_M

[ultrasteve]

If Darren won't be coming back to AtariAge, then I see no reason why this thread should be locked. It will be a useful place for backers to come to show examples of how Darren fixed the issues raised, within the context of the criticisms.

[flashjazzcat]

Excellent. Hopefully every detail was indeed taken.

[Guest]

I've asked for this thread to be closed as it is no longer relevant to the project now. I won't be returning to Atari Age like a great many that themselves have left recently and after this project is completed there will be no further Atari related products from myself or Greyfox Books

 

Kind regards

Darren.

 

wow! for any investors that should be a little unnerving.

i think it'd be wrong to close the thread when there may (as ultrasteve) said, be people coming back to say how things were/weren't fixed in the final publication.

 

Your last sentence really sounds a little Steve Miller - if you don't mind me saying so:

 

"oo-ooh take the money and run"

 

good sellers, would at least hang around a public forum (post sale) to deal with any concerns in an open manner.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Guest