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Atari : A Visual History Book is now LIVE on Kickstarter

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Sadly the focus of the thread became me, one of the people asked to contribute....I was hurled on to the keel haul him platform for speaking out yet I'd got treated like poo by Darren..

Personally, i think the thread has evolved rather well and has covered issues such as:

 

-Just how rampant Plagiarism has been in the games industry..

 

 

-The pitfalls facing both mainstream publishers (RetroGamer magazine) and indie publishers (Bitmap Books) and Y.T celbs (Ashens and Nostaliga Nerd) when it comes to drawing attention from Nintendo and using imagery that paints hardware in poor light (Bitmap Books:certain visual compedium books), school boy error typo's (RetroGamer magazine and Nostaliga Nerd), lacklustre research (RG, Ashens and Nostaliga Nerd).

 

-What these causal style of books offer, in terms of how little depth game text offers next to the imagery (Bitmap Books Visual Compendiums and Nostaliga Nerd).

 

 

It's morphed from a thread focusing on a single, yet to be seem project, to 1 that offers a lot of constructive feedback for anyone planning projects of their own.

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I think it evolved and now has sort of become side tracked, its supposed to be about the KS for Darrens book but now its talking about anything but...

 

The comparison and pokes about the failings of other mags etc seems the need for a separate thread as long as its Atari formulated..

 

Personally, this horse has been flogged, stripped and sold to the local takeaway...Lets give it some dignity..

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Well...

 

There have been no updates since the Kickstarter funded have there?

 

And once it had been successful there were still digs going on about Greyfoxes personal grammar issues, even though it had been established he has a proof reader for the book itself..and even if typos etc still creep in, his will be far from the only publication to suffer from it..

 

The issue of plagiarism over the cover still continued, so it was only fair to point out just how often those still highly respected to this day within the industry, have been even more guilty of plagiarism when it came to imagery and audio...

 

 

Sorry, but if the forum is going to act in judgement on one project, it has to be willing to accept other projects have suffered from every issue facing this one.

 

The difference here is, we have yet to see the final product and until such time there's no harm in having a general publication discussion.

 

People were happy to compare Greyfoxes project to the Atari bookzines RetroGamer put out and the Art Of Atari book, whilst the kickstarter was running.

 

The thread is to remain open, so why should we now not compare other people's crowdfunded books to the one Greyfox is about to bring us?.

 

I've just used the thread of late to establish the format these crowd funded books take, as some seem to hold hope Greyfox will drastically rewrite the game description texts..

 

Based on what i have seen, that seems unlikely as that's not how these work.

 

You admit yourself Mclaneinc your not a huge reader of these type of books, but want Greyfoxes to be of high quality so he might do a second run so you and others can purchase one, i am just trying to explain what type of book you should expect, format wise.

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Like anyone else, I don't know what the outcome of the book will be, I can only go by the words, pictures and way Darren sounded on the podcast, I wasn't overly stunned BUT could be pleasantly surprised which is what we all want.

 

For me the thread served its purpose at that and its basically just dwindling away....I really wish Darren all the best for him and his customers, its a big project and it needs to be as good as possible...

 

As they say on Dragon's Den, I'm out..(meaning this thread)

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Like anyone else, I don't know what the outcome of the book will be, I can only go by the words, pictures and way Darren sounded on the podcast, I wasn't overly stunned BUT could be pleasantly surprised which is what we all want.

 

For me the thread served its purpose at that and its basically just dwindling away....I really wish Darren all the best for him and his customers, its a big project and it needs to be as good as possible...

 

As they say on Dragon's Den, I'm out..(meaning this thread)

No offence meant to anyone on here but... this thread continued going time and time again after people said they had said all they wanted to say on the matter.

 

Even after many of us made our personal choices not to back the book and the kickstarter ran it's course with book being funded, there were various attempts to cast doubt on the project/attack Greyfoxes personal grammar and remind people how he seemed to treat individuals.

 

Now his interview on a podcast us being put under close scrutiny as well as his personal Atari experience.

 

You add all that to questions being raised early on in the thread about his Graphic Design skills and it comes across in a poor light.

 

I have to say, my personal feelings towards Greyfox aside, it has become clear people lack perhaps a greater understanding of the approach books by people like Greyfox, Nostaliga Nerd, Sam Dyer etc take ...which is fine, but the continual questioning of what backers will be getting is serving no purpose at this time.

 

There were enough people that wanted the book to fund it.

 

There are people arriving now the kickstarter is over who want it.

 

Until the book arrives, it's not for us who did not back it, to start casting further doubts on what those who did, will be getting.

 

I played my megre part in trying to ensure the book had a level of industry first hand experience and used my own personal experience to shape interview Q's.

 

I will listen to the podcast, but that's it now.

 

When the book arrives the backers can tell us if it's avoided the errors that crept into other similar publications.

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If people didn't listen already, Darren spoke about the book on the Antic Podcast Episode 59 between 37m and 54m

I have the podcast playing as i write and here is my personal interpretation of how Greyfox came across.

 

 

Yes he sounds quite nervous, possibly uncomfortable at times, but i assume this was a SKYPE conversation he knew was going to be used for a podcast and he was out of his comfort zone.

 

He openly admits there has been so much activity going on in the Atari community that it's been difficult keeping track of everything. .could not agree more, it's fantastic to see so much being done, created, discovered within the Atari 8 bit community, but it is difficult to track everything.

 

He explains the book is more than just the visual compedium/Game Art etc..9 interviews and what the aim of the interviews were..

 

#I found Justin online and passed his details onto Greyfox as i loved Lone Raider and had only seen Justin interviewed by 1 commercial magazine at the time, so this was an ideal opportunity to have him spoken with in depth.

 

Reviews:Possible the confusion creeps in here as he says he wrote the majority, then goes onto explain a lot were done by other contributors..so which is it?

 

 

As for his reviews..i read it as him saying he had not played certain titles in years and this was an ideal chance to rediscover them.

 

I'm glad he did play them and on real hardware..that should be the bare minimum for a book like this.

 

 

He is also at pains to point out coders have been used to give the full run down on the games they created, outside of the interview section?

 

Montezuma's Revenge coder possibly done something for the book regarding that title?

 

He made clear the book is simply following on from his previous PDF magazines..A natural evolution as it were.

 

So far there's nothing to suggest any inexperience regarding the Atari 8 bit in any way.

 

It's just someone not used to doing live interviews being put on the spot.

Edited by Lost Dragon

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Even after many of us made our personal choices not to back the book and the Kickstarter ran it's course with book being funded, there were various attempts to cast doubt on the project/attack Greyfoxes personal grammar and remind people how he seemed to treat individuals.

How does one 'attack' someone's personal grammar? What if I said to someone 'You have no discernible talent for writing'? Is that an attack, or an opinion? The words 'bullying' and 'attack' now seem to be substitutes for 'criticise' and 'disagree with'. No attempts to 'cast doubt' on the quality of writing already amply evidenced by everything on offer was necessary. What I saw - for the most part - were observers commenting on what was in front of their eyes.

 

Until the book arrives, it's not for us who did not back it, to start casting further doubts on what those who did, will be getting.

Who says what is and isn't for us? Backers-only discussions are available on the Kickstarter site itself. I'm sure those who backed the book are sufficiently sentient to sift discerningly through the available information and commentary. Anyone who wants to publicise themselves and their project heavily across forums and social media should surely a) understand what forums are like, b) know what the Internet is like, and c) be capable of delivering robust and comprehensive rebuttals of any criticism considered unjust or misleading.

 

This whole thing is gradually degenerating into a pompous treatise on the morals and etiquette of the forum. Nothing will be clear until the book is in the hands of the backers, and even a splendid product (which surely everyone hopes to see) will not retroactively invalidate criticisms regarding the quality of promotional material, etc.

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As you yourself said:Backers-only discussions are available on the Kickstarter site itself. I'm sure those who backed the book are sufficiently sentient to sift discerningly through the available information and commentary.

 

So why was there a need for a non-backer to post a copy of the last? Update on here, with a comment about what a treat backers would be getting, due to yet another typo by the books creator?.

 

It came across as a little petty..

 

 

There were ample accusations of the person behind this project being guilty of plagiarism, poor work ethics etc and i totally agree the marketing campain was very poorly handled and it's been made equally clear who should of handled it and why.

 

It's just that even when having explained himself and the project again on the Antic Podcast, the books creator and the project itself are further called into doubt.

 

It was implied that he came across as if the entire project was a bit beyond him (in ability i assume) and that he lacks the experience to write a book about the Atari 8 bit machines, again this is a visual compedium, it's not meant as an in depth look at the hardware anymore than others Visual Compendium books have been intended to cover the ZX Spectrum, C64 or Amiga.

 

 

 

Nobody is trying to invalidate the constructive criticism anyone has made throughout this thread, lessons can be learned for anyone attempting future projects covering Atari and beyond.

 

But the sad fact is, thanks to this thread we have already lost a very valuable member of the Atari Age community (JoSch), we know Greyfox himself will not be returning to explain what has been changed since kickstarter finished.

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1 last fix and then nothing but the JoSch reference I take personally, a few people made out that I forced a grown man off AtariAge because I argued back, I got the old thing that I was alleging collusion which I did't I mere asked if he had more to do with the project and he never did answer despite all that, I explained VERY CLEARLY why I said that I even apologised if he took it the wrong way which was twice I tried to make the situation calm. But what isn't addressed is that JoSch was being just as negative as anyone, making random claims of bullying for him and Darren and yet even a MOD had to step in and say it wasn't so.

 

So I don't want JoSch's moving on dumped at my door because that is what was said by him and others,

 

Sorry but no, JoSch was simply not listening, arguing for the sake of it and making unfair claims despite the words being written by Darren..

 

Sorry but that is nothing to do with me, JoSch simply got the hump as we brits say and the toys were thrown out......Grown man, grown attitude needed..

 

DO I want him to have gone, no, I've nothing against him, I didn't even know he was a dev, he just joined the argument and shook it like a dog with a bone....I've been annoyed with things on here but I've never just given in, you get in to an argument, you settle it and move on..

 

As for Darren not returning...?? Would be a truly daft thing to do considering he got backers from here..

 

I said I was OUT before and so in the rather dodgy words of Mickey Flanagan, "I'm going out out"...No return, no surrender...(ends with a film joke)

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It's sad for any active and respected user to quit any forum, espically in this day and age where forums are a dying breed and it's even more disheartening when it's due to a discussion thread about a project that in principle should of been a fantastic thing for the greater Atari community.

 

But that's what happened...

 

I'm not singling anyone out Mclaneinc, i am merely stating the fact that this thread got very out of hand and there were consequences.

 

Look, i myself have very little time for Greyfox because of this bloody book and in particular the handling of the content, it's marketing, the hours involved trying to get content for it, you name it..it became the proverbial millstone.

 

The damn thing has cost more than 1 friendship already and if Greyfox did not forsee the issues that arose by going with that cover, using WIP pages to preview a finished product and not at very least having his proof reader check his marketing campain and updates..then he deserves every bit of critiscm that lands at his feet, sorry but he does..

 

He wanted this thread locked do not forget that please, does that sound like a man who plans to return? .

 

 

It's a big and harsh world out there and the moment you ask for others money, you have to ensure your work is worthy of it and it does not matter which publisher you work for or how big a deal you are on YT or whatever...your not doing this for free.

 

 

But it was unfair to imply he lacked enough Atari experience to take on something like this,just because of some podcast interview nerves.

 

When it comes to Atari, he and his sources used, know the system better than the YT celb turned writer types i have named in this thread and a lot of RG freelancers.

 

He is no expert i am sure, but then there seems a chronic lack of understanding on here about what a Visual Compendium actually is as people lack experience of them and that itself has caused perhaps unrealistic demmands?

 

 

I'm just rather surprised to see this project have the reaction it has..

 

Maybe it is an Atari thing?

 

Or would i find the issue of Bitmap Books plagiarising Nintendo Imagery and falling foul of Nintendo with the NES compendium before being resolved, on Nintendo forums in the manner the cover was on here?

 

 

If i venture to a C64 forum would the issue of Rob Hubbard conducting a live orchestra to play arrangements of music he took from others (Monty On The Run and International Karate) be treated the same as someone now using imagery from other sources?

 

I would hope not, though GTW told me the C64 community can be far worse than the Atari one and Nintendo fans can be rather intense.

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As for Darren not returning...?? Would be a truly daft thing to do considering he got backers from here..

 

Like a bad habit, Darren has returned and at least logged in. I consider that a good thing. :)

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