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Atari : A Visual History Book is now LIVE on Kickstarter

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Posted (edited)

What's is it with you and commercial gain. An changed picture, which is not fair use, is a violating the copyright of the rights holder. It does not matter. whether you do it, I do it or Mister Commercial does it.

The grey area is whether it's fair use or not. Again, this does not depend on commercial or private use. But that seems to be your only argument.

 

i've never disputed the "fair use" question, but the reality is that the commercial gain angle is what it's all about. isn't it?

how many examples do YOU know of where someone posted a picture of something for no gain at all yet still got prosecuted? - they may get asked to remove said content, but it's highly unlikely they'll get prosecuted - unless it's libelous too!

companies chase people actively making money out of reproducing their intellectual property.

 

do you know how many mock-up photos there are on the internet of The Beatles : Abbey Road LP cover? thousands! - how many of those "artists" do you think were prosecuted/forced to take them down? well as they're still there - and growing in number, I suggest not many, at all. However, artists or other bands that have used Abbey Road's cover in any way (for monetary gain) - ie their own LPs - are bound to pay to use the content. Hopefully now, that you have an actual example - you may finally understand the point. although i suspect you'll come back arguing the toss with me again - because, in all likelihood you'll keep telling people they're wrong to disagree with you.

 

as for "only argument" why don't you re-read what I posted - it's nowhere near the only argument i've presented - unlike you and your "fair use" .

Edited by brenski
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Posted (edited)

In germany, we had a recipe web site sueing the hell out of non-commercial people for either linking/copying recipe pictures on other sites or using similar pictures, they made themselves. The sued for licensing fees and not for simple removal.

Now, you.

Edited by JoSch

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The claims about the car park and US Gold have been a myth BUT the notion that software companies are favourable to some people re reviews isn't a myth, there's a huge range of little treats been proffered in the past and I dare say still. I know it happened but can't say names as I don't need the hassle but it was a well known practice. If you were open to a treat as some were then nice things happened..

 

I was never high enough in the line to be offered bar an offer of a large bottle of Champers AFTER a set of reviews were seen after publication by a well known company...I thanked them but said no as I didn't drink way back then..

Apologies. ..missed this post earlier.

 

The US Gold and dodgy envelopes claim might well of been meant as a humourous claim, but if it was it fell flat and was buried in so many other facial claims, it was hard to know what was intended as truth and what was meant as fiction.

 

The boring truth of the matter was US Gold placed a lot of magazine adverts for game in question, so would of had the power of advertising revenue in their favour and in one magazine, put a blatant Joke review in, giving game a 99.9% score from reviewer Danielle that's Danielle as in Danielle "Woody" Woodyatt. ..US GOLD P.R lady.

 

If that review was taken seriously by the guest writer for Ashens book, there really is no hope

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It seems Darren either got a bit carried away, ran out of steam or didn't realize the monumental task it is to put such material together. With all the money involved and the book being presented as "high end", I think it's pretty natural that we should expect something really polished. I guess it's also a normal thing to see authors and critics disagree on what obvious flaws might be. Still...

 

I won't comment on some of the artistic choices or the cover but I do have reservations when one of your selling points is supposed to be the faithful reproduction of game covers. As Farb noted, your option of using European covers of games from the US is a bit strange. It actually gets quite problematic when you get a mix of an original Synapse Software box and US Gold / SynSoft art. Horrible but also inaccurate. I also have to question myself when I see the Zaxxon page. Why did you take the cover of the Commodore 64 version? For your information, there is no such thing as a SynSoft release of the game for the Atari so I'm not sure what you tried to do.

 

However, the real deal-breaker for me is the general writing style, together with the numerous inconsistencies, typos, grammar and spelling mistakes. Ultrasteve already addressed this and it's quite disappointing you gave no response. I mean, it starts with details with which we can deal but still give the feeling of a rushed or unprofessional product right away. Maybe I'm in the minority but incoherent capitalization, not knowing whether you should write "8bit" or "8-bit" strike me as odd and leave more than a mixed impression.

 

Where it gets really nasty is when you read more carefully. Look, I don't think I'm a grammar nazi, English isn't even my mother tongue but I find the spelling / grammar unacceptable in such a book. I don't know whether it is to be published "as is" but, in my opinion, this would make for terrible publicity for the Atari community and tarnish your reputation in the process. No matter how long it took to produce the book, lack of spellchecking screams amateurish (sorry Darren). Monstrosities such as "would of" instead "would have", "it's" and not "its", "your" in place of "you're", not counting "been" for "being" - in a headline, no less! - in a commercial publication make me want to scream.

 

All this being said, I absolutely still would love to see this book come out… with all the errors and such weeded out. I hope you see what you perceive as negative reactions as an opportunity to take more time and make something better. I think the foundations are there.

 

--

Atari Frog

http://www.atarimania.com

From the start Greyfox was approached by various people, including RetroGamer Magazine article writers who offered services as professional proof readers and in the other thread which he launched last year and everyone has forgotten about he did state he had a professional proof reader on board for the project.

 

As to who that maybe..absolutely no idea, my early involvement was researcher, interviewer and ideas.

 

Everything i submitted, be it my own work or material passed on directly from various industry sources would of needed a professional make over as it was as it's always been..raw.

 

For a paid for product, it required a professional to read through and make the many, many necessary corrections .

 

 

In hindsight, Greyfox would also of been wise to employ the services of a professional P.R person for promotion, leaving him free to focus on the book itself and present it in a more worthy manner when it came to the write ups.

 

I very much enjoyed his actual Y.T videos.

 

 

This is not putting the knife in, it's just a modern day reality.

 

When your marketing something of this nature with the sums of other people's money your looking to aquire, you get the folk with the right skill sets onboard and let them handle the marketing.

 

Chalk it up as another lesson learnt along the way.

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Just going to add 1 comment regarding choice of game covers ...

 

 

We were promised ( i say we as at that point both Greyfox and myself were in contact with same individual) use of the original game covers for all that companies A8 releases, which our source assured us, were safely stored in a bank vault.

 

Fantastic right?

 

Original art preserved in the highest condition, we could not believe our luck.

 

Things soured as once Greyfox asked for specific covers, turns out or source had none of them.

 

And let's just say that situation went south real quickly and being caught in the middle of 2 angry individuals, regarding a project i had only a passing interest in, changed my outlook on this project or getting involved in any one else's ever again.

 

Anywho. ..

 

My point is, like the interviews which had Q's sent out, but no answers ever came back...sometimes events were beyond 'our' control and subsitute art and features had to be used instead.

 

It was far from ideal, but that's simply what happened.

 

I have zero qualms being totally transparent about the instances i was privy to at the time.

 

Everyone seems keen to focus on the cover and games side of the book..

 

Was it a waste of time conducting interviews and people submitting various features for the book?.

 

 

They are just as much a part of it as the 2 page game spreads.

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If the book is finished and just needs funding for production, why are almost all the example pages only using two blocks of text?

 

There's the "Action Biker" text

post-62759-0-35983400-1558351702.jpg

 

And the "Lorem Ipsum" text

post-62759-0-35780000-1558351752.jpg

 

There are only a couple of game pages that don't use these texts!

 

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I have seen that too. These are the images on the kickstarter page. If you zoom in on the pictures you can see that a lot of pages have the standard "Lorem Ipsum" text, other pages show the text of the Action Biker game (a.o. the Ghostbusters and Darts pages). The Broderbund page features the Synapse text, and the 800XL page states the "CITA" chip ;)

 

But hey, you can see that the estimated delivery date is August 2019, so Darren has more than enough time to complete the book.

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From what i remember of the inital concept for the book, the game pages were never meant to have huge amounts of text..This is a coffee table book...a Visual Compendium, the in depth coverage would come from the interviews and publisher features..hardware guides etc, you know, the parts of the book nobody is talking about

 

 

I have a slight degree of sympathy building for Greyfox, whilst i fully acknowledge and make clear the critical mistakes he's made so far and i stand by my original feelings, he should of joined forces with someone with far greater resources and experience than himself when it came to a project of this nature, there's a gulf between a PDF magazine and a high priced book!!!.

 

 

However. .

 

He did create a thread back in 2018 where everyone had chance to put the critiscm of the game pages that's constantly appearing on here the past few days.

 

He did state for the book he was using a professional proof reader..he should of gone further and had a professional marketing person involved as well, that much is now evident.

 

 

Had it been done months ago..i suspect this Kickstarter campaign would not be currently running as Greyfox would of taken the entire project back to the drawing board.

 

I am very taken aback about what's come to light about the cover, but enough has been said about that without me chiming in too much, but it was bloody foolish of him.

 

 

But some of the critiscm appearing now is a little unjust.

 

Unless you had the experiences Greyfox and myself had trying to get replies from industry folk and original artwork, just so the book could offer something worthy of the greater Atari community and those with only a passing interest in the Atari, try and understand what an impossible task it can be to to contact everyone involved on a game or get the most appropriate art.

 

I only had experience with 1 UK games publisher and that alone put me off the entire bloody project.

 

It really was a F##K this for a game of soliders moment and yet Greyfox is trying to cover how many games?.

 

 

If your reading Greyfox and you still want to push on with the project, for gods sake, see sense here.

 

Kill the current kickstarter. .

 

Approach some professional book producers with your ideas and exclusive content and have the entire thing produced by them with their resources and skill sets .

 

Your pride might take a hit but you will be saving yourself an awful lot of stress, your reputation will be in a better standing and your backers and we naysayers will get the book you really wanted to put out.

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I have seen that too. These are the images on the kickstarter page. If you zoom in on the pictures you can see that a lot of pages have the standard "Lorem Ipsum" text, other pages show the text of the Action Biker game (a.o. the Ghostbusters and Darts pages). The Broderbund page features the Synapse text, and the 800XL page states the "CITA" chip ;)

 

But hey, you can see that the estimated delivery date is August 2019, so Darren has more than enough time to complete the book.

And how old are the kickstarter images?

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And how old are the kickstarter images?

 

It makes no odds how old they are, they were used to preview a "ready to print" book, where image is everything they were a bad choice or the book itself was not finished.

 

Either way using them was not a good idea...

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And how old are the kickstarter images?

 

Why are you asking me? You should ask this question to Darren. I was just stating that there is enough time for Darren to complete the book.

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One would hope the images are as recent as possible if the objective is to attract investment in the project. Are am I missing something here? Is it the fault of the potential customer that they believe their eyes instead of what they are told?

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And how old are the kickstarter images?

@JoSch: I don't know why you are continuing to argue against people just for the sake of arguing. I'd already pointed this out in my earlier post, but Darren explicitly stated in this thread:

 

...as the book is completed and its simply needs the funding to go straight to the printing and shipping process...

 

If that were the case, why wouldn't he use completed layouts in the Kickstarter campaign, as Mr Robot already said? Ignoring facts and blindly defending the campaign, whilst simultaneously lambasting others for having an alternative viewpoint and expressing doubts, is making you look a little like a shill.

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Posted (edited)

@JoSch: I don't know why you are continuing to argue against people just for the sake of arguing. I'd already pointed this out in my earlier post, but Darren explicitly stated in this thread:

 

 

If that were the case, why wouldn't he use completed layouts in the Kickstarter campaign, as Mr Robot already said? Ignoring facts and blindly defending the campaign, whilst simultaneously lambasting others for having an alternative viewpoint and expressing doubts, is making you look a little like a shill.

Why does he have to?

Also, I'm not arguing for the sake of opposition. I take no pleasure in this.

I'm arguing, because I see this as unfair attempts to find any hair in the soup, just to show how bad the project is.

I have nothing against criticism, as I said already. But as Darren has to take your criticism, you have to take mine.

Edited by JoSch
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Why does he have to?

Maybe to prove the book stated as "done and ready to print" actually is?

 

If I was selling a car I restored for example, do you think I would list it with pictures of it half way done and in primer, or show the finished item that the buyer would be getting?

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Posted (edited)

Maybe to prove the book stated as "done and ready to print" actually is?

 

If I was selling a car I restored for example, do you think I would list it with pictures of it half way done and in primer, or show the finished item that the buyer would be getting?

Well, perhaps Darren is knee deep in work to meet the dead line.

Perhaps, just perhaps, even it would probably be better to present the most recent images, that's the least of his concerns?

What does the old images prove? Exactly nothing.

Or, would be the fact, that my print emulation is, as it stands now, is mostly two years old, prove that I only will deliver some crappy, half-assed emulation?

Edited by JoSch

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Posted (edited)

Why does he have to?

 

 

well, i think it's fairly normal practice for a buyer to have (at least) an idea of what they're buying. or is that a completely unreasonable expectation?

 

i feel i know what's coming next - but I've got my fireproof suit on, so to paraphrase Dennis DeYoung:

 

They said come flame away, come flame away
Come flame away at me :)
Edited by brenski
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Posted (edited)

Going back to the very first page of this thread, Greyfox did make clear again he was using a proof reader for the book:

 

"..and a great deal of care for the grammar of the book by a professional technical proofreader as this was a great concern for me that this is paramount to its production values of the reader"

 

So whilst it's fair to debate the grammar etc used in the marketing Campain, he does at least seemed to of dedicated resources to ensure the book at least is covered.

 

He also states:

 

Features of the book include:

 

 162 third-party Atari 8-bit games covered

 Premastered box art only found in this book

 Exclusive and new interviews

 Atari 800 – Atari 800xl and Atari 130xe systems profiled

 A visual compendium presentational coffee book

 Full hardback publication.

And much more…

 

With the Atari: A Visual History book, the visuals are the main focus, with roughly 210-220 word sound bites of text accompanying each game spread. The review of each game has especially been given a lot of research and thought during the writing process from myself and all contributors involved. Within the book, you'll also find a series of larger features and interviews with developers and software house profiles and much more ensuring a great mix of visuals and words. Overall, the book will contain around 50,000 words ..

 

 

So concerns about the book being light on text might be a little premature.

 

 

I'm having to take stabs at all of this here, based on what's been presented by him, it should be he himself explaining this and responding to critiscm.

 

At this stage i am literally just trying to grasp what a visual compedium book entails as whilst i have purchased a few of these hardware formats in pixels, Greyfoxes book i was under the impression was to expand apon these concepts where possible.

 

But now revelations about the cover have appeared, i honestly have no idea what to think other than whilst i appaulde anyone's ambition to produce something similar for the Atari community, execution is everything.

 

There's clearly a demand. .over 360 backers. .

 

Big question now is..are they willing to wait for this to be taken back to the drawing board and hopefully turned from a solo project, into a professional collaboration with a major book publisher?.

 

The potential here is fantastic, it just needs a major rethinK.

 

That's a fair comment i hope..

 

As it stands the thread is running in circles over what?

 

A book that clearly is not going to be funded.

 

Blunt..but honest appraisal.

 

People worried about kickstarter images and quality of book with only a few days remaining on the funding.

 

Had it been funded and what we had seen was going to press...different story.

Edited by Lost Dragon
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Big question now is..are they willing to wait for this to be taken back to the drawing board and hopefully turned from a solo project, into a professional collaboration with a major book publisher?.

I would.

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I would.

 

I would too. Based on the marketing images and all, I think the books looks gorgeous. There is nothing "lazy" about the inside based on those images to me. The cover is a major slip-up but I think we can get past that now after all these discussions. I didn't have any involvement like others on the content so I don't have an opinion one way or another.

 

Darren received 360+ backers. That's his market entitlement. Resetting the project with a new cover and a better network of advertising/distribution/marketing will easily push this book into a success. I don't think the price would change but Darren can make the book worth the price.

 

As an author, Darren faced a lot of fire here and I applaud him for putting himself front and forward. I wouldn't have the guts to do this. Looking from the outside, I think Darren and all involved have experienced great stress that can lead to great personal and professional growth.

 

I'd be all over this in a heartbeat without any prejudice after a hearty reset.

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This looks less and less like a passion project and more and more like an Ataribox by the day.

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Posted (edited)

Well, perhaps Darren is knee deep in work to meet the dead line.

Perhaps, just perhaps, even it would probably be better to present the most recent images, that's the least of his concerns?

What does the old images prove? Exactly nothing.

Or, would be the fact, that my print emulation is, as it stands now, is mostly two years old, prove that I only will deliver some crappy, half-assed emulation?

 

Make your mind up, you wanted to know how old the images were in the first place which in itself was a pointless question.

 

You also seem to be failing to grasp the very points that Darren himself said re the book and then try to disprove he said them when talking to anyone who isn't so happy with the end result. Darren said the book was FINISHED, so why in the hell would you use such images in a Kickstarter campaign to attempt to get funding, the utter importance of making the best impression on people can't be more highly said yet you think, oh well he might have been busy?

 

Seriously, too busy to pick the post important bits of info to push the campaign...Come on....These are not simply spelling mistakes, they show wrong info, wrong content, badly written and just basic page filler text...But yet apparently from a FINISHED BOOK...

 

Why would you use such images if you could transfer real pages from the finished book...

 

What gets me is that you are not taking in the facts or have some vested interest in the book other than backing it. Darren said this was a showpiece book, Darren said it was finished, Darren used a previously published book cover as a 99% template, Darren also said it was a work of love and not for monetary gain and you found out he wasn't treating the people asked to be involved very nicely and yet you ignore all that....How much of that sounds good to you?

 

Have you more interest in this than just backing it?

 

You say he's being singled out deliberately and another person might get an easy ride, well looking at all the known FACTS I think Darren brought this on himself because something isn't sitting right here...

 

The book in whatever state its in needs to be rejigged and then see if anyone wants to publish it....We want good books...We like good books and we will BUY good books...In the form presented its not good enough..

 

Or try this, if the book was sold to you and its like this in some parts or even more parts, would you feel good about it?

Edited by Mclaneinc
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Posted (edited)

I give up. A discussion with you all is futile. You made up your mind and cant hear any arguments, instead you just are insinuating things, like there is only one way this has to go. Also insinuating that I have a personal interest in this project

Have you more interest in this than just backing it?

is nothing more than a diversion from my argument and a personal attack.

I have rethink, whether I can contribute anything to this kind of community.

Edited by JoSch

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I give up. A discussion with you all is futile. You made up your mind and can hear any arguments, instead you just are insinuating things, like there is only one way this has to go. Also insinuating that I have a personal interest in this project

 

is nothing more than a diversion from my argument and a personal attack.

I have rethink, whether I can contribute anything to this kind of community.

 

Don't give up. There are some really good people here. And then there are a few that seem to love to debate anything, and everything to death :grin: . You know it's just like real life, made up of all kinds of personalities :) .

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