Force Command : kinda like command.com from 1985 (no TIPI required!)

[+OLD CS1]

3 hours ago, atrax27407 said:

Gremlins

 

3 hours ago, mizapf said:

Heisenberg

You sure about that?

[Omega-TI]

My reply to @jedimatt42 is << HERE >> it was the last message on the previous page that got rolled over.

Gremlins suck, at least the Javelin had some style...

[+jedimatt42]

3 hours ago, Omega-TI said:

I'm running RXB since it's supposedly 100% compatible with TI Extended BASIC but has other things that I may use someday.

As you can see from my AUTOCMD file the XBADDR seems to be correct...

 

This is the script file residing in my TIPI root directory that I'm using...

 

It appears to only do this...

... on the initial try after turning on the TI...

 

I'm not opposed to trying a different version of Extended BASIC if someone wants to fire me off a copy of the .BIN's, tell me the correct name to use and supply me with the correct XBADDR to type into my AUTOCMD file.

I just wanted to be able to reproduce your scenario exactly... RXB 2015E, is that correct?  RXB challenges me in that I don't understand how to determine the latest available release.

[Omega-TI]

22 minutes ago, jedimatt42 said:

I just wanted to be able to reproduce your scenario exactly... RXB 2015E, is that correct?  RXB challenges me in that I don't understand how to determine the latest available release.

Attached below is the copy of RXB I'm using, taken straight off of my FG99.

 

Since it consistently happens at initial startup, and not a reset, it's almost like a piece of data or a memory register is not set/tripped properly or something.  Just a guess on my part, you know I'm no expert.

My Copy of RXB.zip

[Omega-TI]

Now it's taken to blue screening me on exit back to Force Command, while nothing has changed.  I'm beginning to wonder if the power it's getting from the TI is stable or at borderline levels.  When I get back from vacation I might have to contact J-Data where he ordered the angle adapter from.  Then I suppose I'll have to get the Dremel out.

[+jedimatt42]

4 minutes ago, Omega-TI said:

Now it's taken to blue screening me on exit back to Force Command, while nothing has changed.  I'm beginning to wonder if the power it's getting from the TI is stable or at borderline levels.  When I get back from vacation I might have to contact J-Data where he ordered the angle adapter from.  Then I suppose I'll have to get the Dremel out.

I'm going a bit off topic, but, I measured the PI Zero W USB power consumption today... It sits idle at 180mah. I saw it peek at 230mah... during boot up. I don't know the quality of this device, or the sample rate... etc... but that + about 100mah (depending on the version of my 32K, don't know about J-Data's, should be less) of TIPI+32k on the sideport... == 330mah...    Texas Instruments rated the +5V there for just 50mah. 

 

There are configuration things you are supposed to be able to do to save power, but I don't measure any power savings...

 

If it doesn't prove to be a reproducible software thing, you'll be asked to unplug your mouse, test, plug it back in, use external power, test... etc...  But that would really be a topic for the TIPI-in-speech thread. 

[Omega-TI]

I have multiple parasitic devices sucking power from the TI.  I have a Tursi designed keyboard adapter, and an F18A in addition to the TIPI, RPi and wireless mouse.

[+jedimatt42]

So I've discovered 2 things. 

 

1. I increased my own copy of Force Command to 128k, and now I need to extend the delay between telling the FG99 to load it, and actually starting the cartridge.  The FG99 wasn't meant to be used this way.. 

2. I'm not reproducing the problem... My PI is always on...

 

I'll return this bug to sender... you can compare on your TIPIPEB system.. or independently powered PI Zero W. 

[Omega-TI]

54 minutes ago, jedimatt42 said:

I'll return this bug to sender... you can compare on your TIPIPEB system.. or independently powered PI Zero W. 

Fair enough.  I'll mess with the P-Box TIPI after I get back from vacation next week.  I dunno when I'll get around to hacking the case and purchasing another power supply, let alone figuring out where I'm going to plug it in as I currently have three power strips maxed out.

 

It very well could be the FG99, I dunno.  I'll make do with the old Control F12 button combo until then, besides it's the only thing I'm having an issue with, everything else works fine.

[Omega-TI]

@jedimatt42 since you are the expert on Force Command and @RXB seems to know a lot about the SAMS, I have a question...

Is it theoretically possible to use Force Command to load a small program that could be placed into a specific spot in the SAMS card that could be accessed as an overlay while Force Command is running in main memory?  Then using a combination of keys as a 'hook' bring the program into active use when needed, and toggled back when not?

[+jedimatt42]

redacted... 

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by jedimatt42
Redacted

[+jedimatt42]

12 hours ago, Omega-TI said:

@jedimatt42 since you are the expert on Force Command and @RXB seems to know a lot about the SAMS, I have a question...

Is it theoretically possible to use Force Command to load a small program that could be placed into a specific spot in the SAMS card that could be accessed as an overlay while Force Command is running in main memory?  Then using a combination of keys as a 'hook' bring the program into active use when needed, and toggled back when not?

 

You don't need SAMS unless you are talking about a large program. and you haven't talked about any program at all... so it is really impossible to answer this non-question, except to say 'no'. you can't do that with Force Command as it is, because it owns the machine and doesn't allow anything to hook in anywhere to do anything. 

 

My posterior has a lot of opinions about the form of your question. Maybe if you tried again with an actual stated goal... instead of a mechanism. 

 

[Omega-TI]

1 hour ago, jedimatt42 said:

 

You don't need SAMS unless you are talking about a large program. and you haven't talked about any program at all... so it is really impossible to answer this non-question, except to say 'no'. you can't do that with Force Command as it is, because it owns the machine and doesn't allow anything to hook in anywhere to do anything. 

 

My posterior has a lot of opinions about the form of your question. Maybe if you tried again with an actual stated goal... instead of a mechanism. 

 

The SAMS is an underused card, and I had a germination of an idea that I thought might give some a use, and was potentially thinking of a suite of possible applications, mostly of a small size.  Lately though I've gotten a little reticent to mention specific programs or goals, because I sometimes get jumped by some individuals who take issue with me questioning anything.  

 

I'll take your "No" as my answer, because the tone of your last sentence leads me to think it's no longer worth the effort.

[+jedimatt42]

It is the lack of mentioning the actual goal that makes this approach to 'questioning' read like an agressive manipulation. 

 

More than likely the goals you have in mind can be accomplished with far simpler mechanisms. 

[RXB]

I see no reason why we can not make huge 256K or larger programs for Finalgrom or other cart designs 

that use that extra memory to load huge programs. 

Sticking to 32K only is kind of dead in water as 32K is a whisper of what can be done with 1meg.

[+jedimatt42]

7 hours ago, RXB said:

I see no reason why we can not make huge 256K or larger programs for Finalgrom or other cart designs 

that use that extra memory to load huge programs. 

Sticking to 32K only is kind of dead in water as 32K is a whisper of what can be done with 1meg.

Of course there is no reason why a Future version of Force Command can't... It just doesn't at this time. And there are hundreds of hours of development planned ahead of such things.

 

You could write a full multitasking windowed operating system on the 4A architecture given even just the added code storage of today's cartridges. 

 

The Geneve was full of tech demos that showed how possible it was. 

 

There really isn't anything special about the 8086 architecture except speed and popularity. 

 

All theoretical questions about vaporware are answered with 'yes, sure it is possible'. Until you qualify the goal with specifics about performance and/or engineering time constraints.

 

Speculating without intent to write the code yourself is just hot air.

 

I have already shared a roadmap that includes SAMS. 

[+retroclouds]

My 2 cents on feature requests...

 

There’s only so much that a developer can tackle in an acceptable amount of time.

Also Force Command has already seen many nice features in a very short time. jedimatt has done an incredible job on that.

Surely it being written in C doesn’t harm and implementation time is shorter as when coding in assembly language.

 

Speaking for myself doing dev work for the TI-99/4a is all about having fun, trying new things, learning, etc.

However, when it’s starts to feel like work, I am out. For that I have a day job (where others get to decide what needs coding).

 

As far as feature requests go, perhaps it’s time to further concentrate and finalize the API? 

That way others could kick-in and help add features to Force Command.

 

But sometimes it’s good to let time pass so that things get stabilized first and move from there.

I am already very happy with where we’re now with Force Command.

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by retroclouds

[+jedimatt42]

Found a nice bug in command line parsing last night... 

 

for now, keep you arguments down to 40 characters and you shouldn't have any trouble. That includes in scripts. 

 

Of course I'm neck deep in refactorings that touched every source file, so no ETA on when I'll publish that fix.  I've changed the screen output routines to remain in ROM. A step towards getting my memory map under control so that API can have room to be used. 

 

The refactoring helped me shake this out of the tree. 

 

Found while trying to get a script like this, which should already work, to behave correctly:

 

TIPIMAP URI1. HTTP://big-log-uri-to-weather.gov/with/some/long/path/to/plain/text/files
TYPE URI1.KPDX.TXT

or 

 

TYPE PI.HTTP://the-really-long-url.com/directly/I_m_too_lazy_to_find_the_real_example/hahaha/LOL.TXT

 

[Omega-TI]

On 7/15/2020 at 9:19 AM, jedimatt42 said:

It is the lack of mentioning the actual goal that makes this approach to 'questioning' read like an agressive manipulation. 

 

More than likely the goals you have in mind can be accomplished with far simpler mechanisms. 

 

By my reckoning, the SAMS card seems to be under utilized for how many of them are out in the wild.  My idea, (which apparently is not possible) would have been to see if a method could be used for the SAMS card to support a suite of third party APPS over the next few years, written and developed by various individuals, utilizing Force Command as the operating environment.  The purpose was to not interfere with memory locations normally used by either Force Command or regular programs.  Sorry, I could not specify 'a specific goal', I simply wanted to see if it was even possible before mentioning my idea, (which is now out there, but apparently useless.)

 

The motivation behind the original question was for the SAMS card to be more useful to the people who own them, with the additional benefit of creating further interest in Force Command in a manner you would not have to personally support, while at the same time potentially having an avenue for new items for the TI.

[+9640News]

40 minutes ago, Omega-TI said:

 

By my reckoning, the SAMS card seems to be under utilized for how many of them are out in the wild.  My idea, (which apparently is not possible) would have been to see if a method could be used for the SAMS card to support a suite of third party APPS over the next few years, written and developed by various individuals, utilizing Force Command as the operating environment.  The purpose was to not interfere with memory locations normally used by either Force Command or regular programs.  Sorry, I could not specify 'a specific goal', I simply wanted to see if it was even possible before mentioning my idea, (which is now out there, but apparently useless.)

 

The motivation behind the original question was for the SAMS card to be more useful to the people who own them, with the additional benefit of creating further interest in Force Command in a manner you would not have to personally support, while at the same time potentially having an avenue for new items for the TI.

Just throwing this out there as I have only scratched the surface of looking at the FinalGrom, SAMS, and Force Command, but rather than determining the egg came before the chicken, how about the chicken came before the egg?

 

In other words, develop the system you have in mind for the SAMS with perhaps a FinalGrom Loader, then it have a toggle to load Force Command, and then maybe either a secondary loader in FinalGrom to switch back to your App, or another program that toggles back to your App???

 

What you end up is FinalGrom memory swapping in/out, and your program having access to Force Command and your other utilities?

 

Or, perhaps a controlling program run from Force Command that handles the bouncing between your SAMS program(s) and Force Command that is smart enough to remap back in your SAMS program from paged out memory?

 

Not knowing how complex or what you may be trying to accomplish with your program, I am sure something would work.  Just really depends upon whether you scramble the egg, feed the chicken, or a cook the rooster.

 

Beery

 

[Omega-TI]

53 minutes ago, BeeryMiller said:

Not knowing how complex or what you may be trying to accomplish with your program, I am sure something would work.  Just really depends upon whether you scramble the egg, feed the chicken, or a cook the rooster.

 

It's a moot point now I guess, but I imagined a use case something like...

 

You've loaded up an editor program with Force Command, but you need to do a quick HEX conversion, so you press a button, and up pops a smaller secondary DOS window, you type something like: "LS HEX" for "Load SAMS" HEX.  A specially written program is installed into higher SAMS memory and executed.  When you are finished, you press another button and the window closes, but you are exactly where you were in the editor program, except now you have the proper information from the HEX program to feed into your editor program.  Why?  Because, 1 - you would not have to save the file you are working on, 2 - you would not have to exit the program to, 3 - load a program, only to have to, 4 - quit the program, and then 5, reload the editor program all over again, and finally, 6 - reload the file you were working on.

 

I figured at the time, if it was possible, it could have opened up a whole new genre of programs and solidified Force Command as the preeminent environment of choice for years to come.  With the talk of SAMS memory management in another thread, I figured would only be matter of time before a block of code to do that was developed and shared.

[dgrissom]

The TI 99/4A is a wonderful vintage computer system!  I don't believe that most of us feel it is our primary computer!   It is our hobby and passion!

Anything we do with this machine is for the love of the system and to be shared with a community of like-minded hobbyists!

 

I've only been actively associated with this forum/group for a relatively short time.  As stated in previous posts, I consider myself a hobbyist user.  

 

I hope and suggest that we refrain from placing demands or excessive suggestions on the TI hobbyist developers.  It is perfectly acceptable, to report bugs and/or other program/hardware errors.  As a developer ( in a past life), I always appreciated my users giving me feedback, so that I could make appropriate corrections to my software. I did not appreciate ad hoc feature requests.

 

I personally believe that we have a unique forum for working directly with both the TI hardware and software hobbyist developers!  That is the Zoom-TI-99ers Pandemic 4A Club.  Let's use it!

 

Force Command is a GREAT piece of software!  It's development is the work of genius!  Let's let it move ahead on its own pace and continue to surprise us with its innovations.  I consider it a small Christmas present every time something new is added! 

 

Please, let's not take the FUN out of this hobby!

 

David (from Alabama!)

Edited July 17, 2020 by dgrissom
Need to correct some grammar. Probably missed more than I found!

[GDMike]

I edit constantly never explain out.

As a southern Arkansas ti-99 lover, I wholeheartedly agree.  Go see what's happening over on our assembler code example pages, it's fun to write in assembler, but its only because I've got great support here showing me what I'm doing wrong. Lol..uh lol still used rt?

 

[Omega-TI]

3 hours ago, dgrissom said:

I hope and suggest that we refrain from placing demands or excessive suggestions on the TI hobbyist developers.  It is perfectly acceptable, to report bugs and/or other program/hardware errors.  As a developer ( in a past life), I always appreciated my users giving me feedback, so that I could make appropriate corrections to my software. I did not appreciate ad hoc feature requests.

 

I don't believe any of us here think we are in any position to DEMAND anything from anyone here.   I will tell you though, I've never comprehended the closed mindedness, (yes I said it) to open ideas or suggestions, as they are always free from the sender, and the receiver is always free to take them, leave them, or ignore them at their discretion.  I may add that at the very least a person could get a feel for the needs or wants of others based on the aggregate input/feedback of the community as a whole, requested or not.  

 

As for what is, and is not perfectly acceptable, I would never presume to decide for others how they should behave or interact in a public forum with others, with the exception of the moderators.  Believe it or not, others (not you) have even given off the vibe that if one is not programmer, they should just STFU.  I find THAT totally arrogant and antisocial.

 

Sorry to vent like this, but when well intentioned inquiries are interpreted, as "aggressive manipulation", it's really disheartening.

[+Vorticon]

Could we please keep this thread on topic?