MIST vs MISTER?

[+gnusto]

39 minutes ago, Sid1968 said:

Since you seem to be experienced i aks you to describe us what components are needed for the MISTer and where to get them.

 

DE10 FPGA (also available at various electronics specialty shops).

SDRAM - The MISTer uses a GPIO header for this, you won't find it many places. I just resorted to Ebay, no specific recommendations on where to get it. I would get 128MB as that is required for several cores. Look for boards that are tested with MiSTer as the timing on the RAM is important to get right. Here is an example Ebay listing (but I don't know this guy, just seems to be right).

USB board as the DE10 only has a single micro USB. Note there isn't much voltage out of the port here, many people use custom boards bridged to the DE10

You can get a little offset daughter I/O board but it's completely optional, unless you really need VGA (you already have HDMI)

 

Heat tolerances on the FPGA and the RAM are very close, many people report instability without heatsinks/fans. The I/O board supplies a fan mount (just use a Noctua 40mm) or you can custom rig one.

 

There are custom cases out there, I find most of them pretty iffy on value. I just used an acrylic shell.

[ijor]

6 hours ago, TheMontezuma said:

Because MIST is a commercial product and MISTer is a kind of hobby project based on the FPGA development board.

Unless you are a 200% nerd ? you should rather be very happy with the MIST from @lotharek

With MISTer you will end up with spending much more money, having plenty addon boards and a lot of problems to make it all work.

 

I think this is an overstatement. Yes, MIST is sold as a full product including even, optionally, a case. MiSTer officially is a DIY project. But, some dealers will sell you everything for a reasonable cost. Some seller even provide the Terasic board and the custom add-on boards already installed. At the end the cost is about the same than a MiST. You don't spend much more money.

[ijor]

5 hours ago, eightbit said:

The MiST has an Altera Cyclone III FPGA, MiSTer a Altera Cyclone V FPGA. Big difference there.

 

That's not the big difference, if at all. The difference is, among other thing, because of the specific model and variant, not because of the FPGA family. There are small, and cheap, Cyclone III FPGA models; and there are big and expensive Cyclone III  models.

[eightbit]

1 hour ago, ijor said:

 

That's not the big difference, if at all. The difference is, among other thing, because of the specific model and variant, not because of the FPGA family. There are small, and cheap, Cyclone III FPGA models; and there are big and expensive Cyclone III  models.

 

Actually, quite a big difference for the FPGA models these particular devices (MiST and DE10 Nano) are using.

 

The Amiga Vampire 500V2+ for example has the same Cyclone III and the developers have reached a point where they have run out of gates for the firmware. It is the reason they have problems adding new things (like everything being displayed out of HDMI, etc) as they would have to remove features in order to implement new ones at this point. The Cyclone V obviously has much more programmable gates and is the reason why it is now being used in the Vampire V4.

 

Less gates means less robust cores. Eventually core developers will not be able to "fit" their emulator core into an Altera Cyclone III...and that means no more core updates for said emulator on the legacy MiST. I am referring to advanced emulator cores of course. 

 

So, yeah, big big difference. If you buy a MiST over a MiSTer you are going to limit yourself if not now definitely in the future. But, if the current set of cores for the MiST are "fine with you" it is definitely a nice device. I owned one in the past and I can say it is truly a solid product. If it were updated with a Cyclone V, HDMI out and priced the same as a build your own solution I would jump at it. But, Lotharek is no longer making these (but still has stock to sell) because he unfortunately could not get V's as cheaply as the mass producers of these DE10 boards and even the III's cost him much more than those guys.

 

Really sad actually as it was his baby first

 

 

As for building a MiSTer, just read the wiki. I haven't done it yet but it appears stupidly simple. Its just a matter of buying the stuff and plugging it all together. Parts like the additional RAM you need for certain cores are all over ebay and elsewhere online.

Edited February 11, 2020 by eightbit

[ijor]

14 minutes ago, eightbit said:

Actually, quite a big difference for the FPGA models these particular devices (MiST and DE10 Nano) are using.

Yes, precisely what I said. The difference is not because of the family, but because of the specific FPGA model.

 

Quote

The Amiga Vampire 500V2+ for example has the same Cyclone III and the developers have reached a point where they have run out of gates for the firmware. It is the reason they have problems adding new things (like everything being displayed out of HDMI, etc) as they would have to remove features in order to implement new ones at this point. The Cyclone V obviously has much more programmable gates and is the reason why it is now being used in the Vampire V4.

No, there are Cyclone III models that have as much gates as the Cyclone V on the DE10 Nano (MiSTer). They decided to migrate to the Cyclone V for some other reason (that I don't know)

[eightbit]

2 minutes ago, ijor said:

No, there are Cyclone III models that have as much gates as the Cyclone V on the DE10 Nano (MiSTer). They decided to migrate to the Cyclone V for some other reason (that I don't know)

 

Interesting. I wonder why. I recall watching one youtube video with one of the Apollo members discussing how the Cyclone III was at the "limit" with the gates it provided. I will have to try to find that video. I was under the assumption this was why those new features were slow coming (or not coming). The video thing (swapping from HDMI to RGB for OCS/ECS software) is the reason I let the thing go. Quite annoying

[TheMontezuma]

6 hours ago, ijor said:

 

I think this is an overstatement. Yes, MIST is sold as a full product including even, optionally, a case. MiSTer officially is a DIY project. But, some dealers will sell you everything for a reasonable cost. Some seller even provide the Terasic board and the custom add-on boards already installed. At the end the cost is about the same than a MiST. You don't spend much more money.

https://lotharek.pl/productdetail.php?id=45

https://ultimatemister.com/product/ultimate-mister-pro/

 

210€ vs. 350€ ?

[Sid1968]

The Amiga Core is on both Systems nearly the same. That core benefits in absolutely NO way of the better performance of the MISTer.... what a shame! It seems that only more performance hungry cores like Dreamcast are being realized on the MISTer and not on the MIST. If you want to use Cores that needs not more performance like  Amiga / Atari ST the MIST is the choise...

[Sid1968]

I found the TerasIC DE10-nano (Cyclone® V SoC) here for 131,74 EUR:

https://www.amazon.de/EP4CE22F17C6N-DE0-NANO-P0082-TERASIC-TECHNOLOGIES/dp/B018CR1MFY/ref=pd_rhf_se_p_img_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=ZG21NEFTVKK2F6GN0DQ3

 

Where do we get the other parts for a MISTer? Will we realise one for the Price of a MIST? Lets try... and please bring productlinks in the EU too.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Sid1968

[ijor]

2 hours ago, TheMontezuma said:

https://lotharek.pl/productdetail.php?id=45

https://ultimatemister.com/product/ultimate-mister-pro/

 

210€ vs. 350€ ?

 

That UltimateMisterPro is an absolute luxury. You don't (necessarily) need that. It includes all the optional boards and the bigger dual chip 128 MB DRAM board. That is four times the RAM capacity that the MiST has (32 MB) and is only needed for a couple of cores that you can't run on the MiST anyway.

[ijor]

2 hours ago, Sid1968 said:

The Amiga Core is on both Systems nearly the same. That core benefits in absolutely NO way of the better performance of the MISTer.... what a shame! It seems that only more performance hungry cores like Dreamcast are being realized on the MISTer and not on the MIST. If you want to use Cores that needs not more performance like  Amiga / Atari ST the MIST is the choise...

 

This is not software, it doesn't work like that. If a given core fits in a specific FPGA, you won't get any advantage by running it on a bigger FPGA. You might benefit from "secondary" features such as a very powerful scaler, or the builtin HDMI interface, but the core would be essentially the same. The main difference is that "bigger" cores can't fit on the MiST's smaller FPGA. It is not about performance but about capacity.

 

So again, as I said in my first reply, it depends on which cores are you interested.

[Laner]

6 hours ago, Sid1968 said:

The Amiga Core is on both Systems nearly the same. That core benefits in absolutely NO way of the better performance of the MISTer.... what a shame! It seems that only more performance hungry cores like Dreamcast are being realized on the MISTer and not on the MIST. 

 

I doubt the MiSTer as it currently exists will ever be able to properly mimic a Dreamcast. Most likely it'll top out at Playstation 1 levels. Anything beyond that will require a beefier FPGA.

[Sid1968]

Sorry, i meant NEOGEO. That core only exists on MISTer.

[tuf]

If you're primarily interested in emulating an ST, I'd go with the MIST.  The ST core on the MiSTer isn't as mature, and as someone mentioned above MIDI isn't an option on MiSTer yet unless you use a USB based interface and I haven't seen anyone do any real testing with a sequencer.

 

The Amiga core seems very mature and stable on MiSTer.  Beyond that the MiSTer has dozens of other cores in varying states of maturity that you can have fun playing with.

 

You only need the DE-10 board and a RAM board (get the 128 meg).  It'll cost you about ~$200 for the DE-10, RAM, and a $5 USB hub. 

[Sid1968]

Here is described what components are needed for the MISTer an where to buy them:

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/wiki/How-to-start-with-MiSTer

 

Here you can compare the cores of MIST and MISTer:

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel

https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-binaries/tree/master/cores

Edited February 11, 2020 by Sid1968

[Sid1968]

Beyond the Arcade Cores, from which MIST do have packages too, i ask if NEOGEO is the only core MIST do not have, but MISTer do?

These missing cores would be the only advantage MISTer would have against MIST in the decission which one to buy.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Sid1968

[ijor]

5 hours ago, Sid1968 said:

Beyond the Arcade Cores, from which MIST do have packages too, i ask if NEOGEO is the only core MIST do not have, but MISTer do?

These missing cores would be the only advantage MISTer would have against MIST in the decission which one to buy.

It is not the only core, there are several. Ao486, SNES, Megadrive come to mind. I don't have a comprehensive list and I don't know if somebody maintains such a list.

 

The decision about which one to buy involves several aspects, some are just personal preferences that only you can judge.

[Sid1968]

Before i buy or do something i need a fully overview to uge about it and make a decission. I guess the most of us act like that. I learned it from the past...

E.G. do i miss the enthusiasm in what i read till now. Are in the end both solutions, MIST and MISTer, stopgaps and we better wait another 1 to 20 years for a better FPGA solution?

Edited February 12, 2020 by Sid1968

[Total Eclipse]

18 hours ago, ijor said:

It is not the only core, there are several. Ao486, SNES, Megadrive come to mind. I don't have a comprehensive list and I don't know if somebody maintains such a list.

The MiST has a mature Megadrive core, including a separate core that imements the SVP of Virtua Racing. 

 

It also has a pretty good SNES core. IIRC it doesn't implement all of the various Super-FX functions, so some games won't work, but the majority do. 

[jamm]

Can't believe no one has mentioned this important fact:

 

[ijor]

2 hours ago, Total Eclipse said:

The MiST has a mature Megadrive core, including a separate core that imements the SVP of Virtua Racing.

It also has a pretty good SNES core. IIRC it doesn't implement all of the various Super-FX functions, so some games won't work, but the majority do. 

 

You are right. I replied too quickly. Sorry. I meant MegaCD, not Megadrive. And SNES, I understand as you are saying, it doesn't support all the enhancement chips.

 

There are also some Arcade cores that could fit on the MiST but they aren't being ported because they have bad synchronous design. The problem here is not the FPGA itself, not directly, but the tools. The Cyclone III is a rather old family and is not supported by modern versions of the tools that are more tolerant to these issues. Of course, if somebody would rewrite those cores "properly", they would probably fit without problems

 

I think we are (we probably were, long ago) getting quite off topic for this subforum ...

[marauder666]

I bought a DE-10 Nano, 128MB SDRAM, noctua fan, cheap USB hub, a few cables, and used an old Lacie hard drive enclosure to build a Mister around 6 months ago, running into a Samsung HDTV.

 

This is the best new/retro device I've ever bought, in the last few months it's had Neogeo, Sega CD, Gameboy Advance cores added, all of which are fantastic.  

Recently, due to the fact that lots of arcade machines run the same hardware, loads of new arcade cores have turned up.

 

Only thing thats a bit disappointing is that the Atari cores aren't as accurate as the real thing and some things don't work, especially the 2600.  

 

I'm considering selling my NeoGeo CD, and have decided not to bother buying a Sega CD, I think that says it all really.

 

[Keatah]

Thing with VCS core is that any small errors that show up are game breakers. There's just not a lot of "stuff" in the VCS design and every byte and transistor do something important. Something critical.
Totally opposite of like a USB port failing on a modern PC, the PC keeps running.

 

And so that is why accuracy is paramount here. Emulator Stella gets a ton of things right when it comes to core accuracy, dare I say all of it? It even has routines plucked and polished from other FPGA designs.

 

Currently Emulator Stella is the benchmark, aside from original hardware of course, as it should be.

[ijor]

2 hours ago, Keatah said:

Thing with VCS core is that any small errors that show up are game breakers.

I am very surprised that TIA is not implemented 100% accurately. After all the original schematics were available years ago.

 

According to the last fixes the problems were that some mappers were not implemented and one (or two) bugs in the RIOT implementation. I understand this fixes were performed on the MiST version and were not ported to the MiSTer one.

[Keatah]

Nobody is really duplicating the TIA on a transistor/capacitor/resistor/diode level. So we're stuck with approximations.