VinsCool Posted June 4, 2021 Author Share Posted June 4, 2021 There's just so much undocumented stuff that begs to be understood and used there Ended up playing around again lol At least I do have an idea about how to reliably calculate the bass, so we'll see. In other news I got the Poly9 noise tones figured out, and calculated in this sheet: Atari Frequencies And Ratio v10.ods 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 Thanks for the kind words ... To be honest, I am a sound synthesist at heart. I always try to get my synthesizers and musical equipment to put out sounds they weren't designed to ... and my Atari 1200XL is no different, it's another musical instrument, with so much untapped potential. And to be honest, real credit goes to those like Raster, Analmux, and others not here anymore to share their wisdom. I just enjoy discovering new sounds. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsCool Posted June 4, 2021 Author Share Posted June 4, 2021 (edited) another one lol extra harmonic is thick haha Edit: Okay! I figured out the 16-bit-without-1.79mhz-clock formula: It's literally the same one used for Distortion A 64khz! Once you need to go below FF (B-2), increment the high byte and enjoy the extra bass range for 6 cycles saved compared to using 16-bit with 1.79mhz If the high byte = 00, the output is identical to the normal 8-bit frequencies, except it's the low byte channel (either AUDF1 or AUDF3) that modulates it. The advantage with this is that you also have the full channel 1 (or 3) available to produce harmonics for free, and that part is technically what reverse 16-bit is. Having both at once is even better I think With that in mind, I have no idea how the stuff of channel 1 or 3 is generated from the 16-bit output itself, so that will be fun to experiment to find it out! Edit2: Look for the "Playground" sheet to see the formula in action. I tried the numbers too, and they are accurately doing what is expected. Atari Frequencies And Ratio v11.ods Edited June 4, 2021 by VinsCool Added more informations 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsCool Posted June 5, 2021 Author Share Posted June 5, 2021 Very incomplete but here's some ideas... Making some music again for once lol I'm just experimenting at this point really. The tuning is the same one I showed in the 3 hours test run btw, anything that sounds wrong here is either the bass or just me using a few notes that were questionable lol Exploring the Shoreline from Another World v1.obx 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 One caution: If you use the 3rd octave and up ... silence the 2nd channel, or it will intermittently not play. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsCool Posted June 12, 2021 Author Share Posted June 12, 2021 New test run of experimental tuning, and this time I think I got really good results compared to last time which had very obvious problems. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 22 hours ago, VinsCool said: New test run of experimental tuning, and this time I think I got really good results compared to last time which had very obvious problems. your test needs to be added to my jukebox of songs, where'd you hide the xex 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsCool Posted June 13, 2021 Author Share Posted June 13, 2021 Something I composed on the spot while I was hacking RMT with my tuning... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsCool Posted June 13, 2021 Author Share Posted June 13, 2021 2 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said: your test needs to be added to my jukebox of songs, where'd you hide the xex Here's the mismatch of files I think were all converted with that test, and probably some extra files I had tested as well. No guarantee all of them are actually sounding good conversions tuning test 14.zip 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivop Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 4 hours ago, VinsCool said: Something I composed on the spot while I was hacking RMT with my tuning... Why do you use Go to line commands to go to the next line? E.g. 2A: Go to line 2B. Do you use them as delimiters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsCool Posted June 13, 2021 Author Share Posted June 13, 2021 4 hours ago, ivop said: Why do you use Go to line commands to go to the next line? E.g. 2A: Go to line 2B. Do you use them as delimiters? Pretty much yeah. Having delimiter lines helps me a lot to organise song sections while I use music trackers. Then I can always set jumps to different places between sections without having to retype all pattern numbers if I intend to use a different order, it has saved me a lot of time in the past! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsCool Posted June 14, 2021 Author Share Posted June 14, 2021 Tested out some reverse 16-bit stuff original rmt module by PG This test confirms my maths for calculating the frequencies for this mode were correct This is also matching my Alternate Tuning, so the bass sounds pretty nice there. Metroid_-_Kraids_Lair_VinEDIT5.xex 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsCool Posted June 16, 2021 Author Share Posted June 16, 2021 (edited) Inspired by PG's cover of Kraid's Lair, I covered Brinstar just for fun I mostly went on the accurate transcription of the NES tune, while adding some of my own little touch into it, the filter worked really nicely for it I think! I think it's a good time so share the progress of my tuning adventure too. So I got the entire set of tables redone, might still need some improvements and there will be in a near future. I also finally decided it was good enough to patch RMT 1.30 with some of my changes. So now there's an acceptable output happening in real time for making music using it, without having to convert over and over with RMT2LZSS to hear how the tune sounds like. RMT Vin Tuning Patch V15: - Redone all 3 main 8-bit tables to match my newest "Alternate Tuning", that aims at being compatible with as many things as possible, while improving the tuning. - Replaced Distortion 6 16-bit Bass to Distortion A 16-bit tables, with matching tuning. - Changed a few text strings to match the changes above, mainly the 16-bit part. - Replaced H- to B- for the notes, this was something that sort of bothered me for a while and so I see no harm editing it. - Added an extra .exe which replaces Sharps to Flats for the notes. This is purely visual, otherwise both versions are virtually the same. CustomNotesTables V26: - Redone most of everything already in there, some things were moved around, and some notes were also moved between octaves, so modules will need to be adjusted if they make use of the extra tables. - Based on my most recent Alternate Tuning calculations, with hopefully better pitch accuracy for most things I was able to calculate mathematically. - Added a couple extra tables such as Distortion 2 64khz, or Reverse 16-bit 64khz, some more things like Poly9 Noise were calculated in the spreadsheet but not ported over yet. - May or may not be better than the last version! Use at your own risk. Reminder this is all experimental stuff and it's hard to test everything properly, I'm only 1 person and there's so much that could be done! Atari Frequencies and Ratio v13: - Added numerous calculations for several frequencies and modes I figured out with very precise resulting frequencies. More might come as I study how the POKEY works and understand how to calculate the frequencies! - Added offset columns for calculations, very useful for fine tuning (no pun intended) several tables, as well as picking up "valid" values for the several distortions being calculated. I haven't found a better way to do it currently... - Added a simple but efficient automation process for making up tables for RMT2LZSS, simply copy and paste and edit if necessary. Less risk of making a typo somewhere! - Added Calculations by Ratio, based on Ivop's previous set of spreadsheets, very useful for finding constant patterns! Will be useful someday for tables based on musical keys... - General improvements of the entire set of sheets for calculations, Playground and Known Values Dump sheets may still have useful rambles to look at... I hope you all have a good day! This is a lot of fun Metroid - Brinstar Final.rmt Metroid - Brinstar Final.xex CustomNoteTables v26.txt Atari Frequencies And Ratio v13.ods RMT Vin Tuning Patch V15.zip Edited June 16, 2021 by VinsCool 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 1. I hope your work will finally bring someone to the opinion that a fully working POKEY tracker is highly recommended (and the need to code one ). 2. Nicely done tune. Particular(fo my taste) the "SNES-Brass Instrument" . For one some "other day agenda" an Axelay soundtrack is in my mind for a long time 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsCool Posted June 17, 2021 Author Share Posted June 17, 2021 Finished the Title Theme Metroid - Title Final.rmt Metroid - Title Final.xex 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 5 hours ago, VinsCool said: Finished the Title Theme Metroid - Title Final.rmt 2.46 kB · 2 downloads Metroid - Title Final.xex 6.66 kB · 2 downloads Seems, all the fiddling with 8 bit resolution has the limits on higher octaves. There are parts in it (particular the beginning) when you search "where are we" . I changed some volume for a proposal, and to have the balance a little more to the original. Possibly changing the start to a 16 bit variation and 3 channels used, then transpose to 4 channels? Some parts are also well. Metroid - Title Final.rmt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsCool Posted June 17, 2021 Author Share Posted June 17, 2021 6 hours ago, emkay said: Seems, all the fiddling with 8 bit resolution has the limits on higher octaves. There are parts in it (particular the beginning) when you search "where are we" . I changed some volume for a proposal, and to have the balance a little more to the original. Possibly changing the start to a 16 bit variation and 3 channels used, then transpose to 4 channels? Some parts are also well. Nice volume edit, seems a little more balanced indeed I noticed my version was getting a little drown out when all parts were coming together, but thought it was okay since hardware seems to handle this a little better overall, I did not try it yet there. Also I think the detuning played in my favour this time, the notes fit really well together in this version. I don't personally think 16-bit would be any useful to improve it further. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, VinsCool said: Nice volume edit, seems a little more balanced indeed I noticed my version was getting a little drown out when all parts were coming together, but thought it was okay since hardware seems to handle this a little better overall, I did not try it yet there. Somehow RMT needs to be adjusted, to have the correct sounding, even if the musical part is restricted. Quote Also I think the detuning played in my favour this time, the notes fit really well together in this version. I don't personally think 16-bit would be any useful to improve it further. There is a difference. The original tune might sound detuned. But it is a related detune of all channels. It sounds "distant" but not off. Possibly, if the "tracker" resembles a stable POKEY "playback", everything can be adjusted to sound in tune. Particular this tune shows it. The reducing of the detuned voice, makes it mixing more into the rest of the voices. If there is a stable "intermixing" of all channels, there is no detuning, because every note takes a "bit" of the other channel. Edited June 17, 2021 by emkay 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsCool Posted June 17, 2021 Author Share Posted June 17, 2021 My Alternative Tuning was specifically made for that reason too. The same tune in the original RMT version will sound pretty bad in comparison. This is about as good as 8-bit allows it right now, it is "off" just enough to sound unsettling, but not entirely off, so it doesn't hurt my ears either 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsCool Posted June 19, 2021 Author Share Posted June 19, 2021 Work in progress. All that's missing is the percussions, but I'll try again tomorrow to come up with some decent patterns for them. Used Distortion 2 1.79mhz + Distortion 8 64khz Poly9 for the lead. I also redid my Distortion 2 1.79mhz table to be a lot more in-tune to Distortion A. Might fix some more notes for other modes later using a similar approach. This is so dumb I wonder why I did not think about it earlier lol The Poly9 notes were done manually, I only needed a handful so that did not warrant a table (yet...) Metroid 2 - Surface of SR388 v17.obx CustomNoteTables v26 edit1.txt 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted June 19, 2021 Share Posted June 19, 2021 Sounds better than the original. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 19, 2021 Share Posted June 19, 2021 1 hour ago, MrFish said: Sounds better than the original. Better is a matter of taste. But it sounds correct. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted June 19, 2021 Share Posted June 19, 2021 9 hours ago, emkay said: Better is a matter of taste. But it sounds correct. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsCool Posted June 19, 2021 Author Share Posted June 19, 2021 50 minutes ago, MrFish said: I mean, he's not wrong lol There's a lot of room for improvements in my arrangement anyway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 19, 2021 Share Posted June 19, 2021 22 minutes ago, VinsCool said: I mean, he's not wrong lol There's a lot of room for improvements in my arrangement anyway! MrFish is one of those people who don't realize the difference between musical taste and musical correctness, so he might still not be enlightened Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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