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An Atari 8-bit Infocom mystery...


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Actually, I asked about the four z4 titles. I knew for certain that the z5 and z6 games had never been released for the 8-bits. Still, if we could get an updated Z-Interpreter the will allow us to run the z4 and possibly the z5 titles, assuming your machine has enough extended memory, that would be awesome!

 

It shouldn't even require that much extended memory. The full PitchDark project above runs on an emulated 128K Apple IIe. I've got 3 Atari 8-bits in the room with me as I type with 1,088K each. :)

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Interesting info here as one of my concerns was the 'resident' portion requirements may not actually be a inhibitor when using a different different medium that eliminate the need for the 'change disk side', so for me that means either a custom ATR or cartridge, so a 128K should be fine but even 64K machine might be able to run those titles.

 

I've dug out my disassemblies of V4 (Bureaucracy) and V5 (Sherlock) interpreters and so do have a basis for decoupling the Commodore dependencies and plugging in the A8 equivalents. An alternative could be to hook up with Ozmoo project and provide an A8 port but would go with the former first as its a good learning exercise :)

 

post-1822-0-13662400-1559000379.png post-1822-0-68964700-1559000239.png

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In addition to being a big Atari computer fan, 8-bit and 16-bit alike, I'm also a big fan of text adventures in general, since that's what got me into computers in the first place, and Infocom specifically. I have images of all of the Atari 8-bit versions of the Infocom games. I've located images of all 24 of the original version 3 Z-code games that were released for the 8-bit. As far as I knew, none of the version 4 Z-code games, A Mind Forever Voyaging, Bureaucracy, Nord and Bert Couldn't Make Head or Tail of It, and Trinity were ever released for the Atari 8-bits, and definitely nothing beyond that.

 

So, imagine my surprise when I was looking through Analog Issue #58, October 1987, when I saw that Steve Panak reviewed Bureaucracy. The Atari 8-bits are never specifically mentioned, but it does say 48K disk, which rules out the ST, and Analog wasn't in that habit of reviewing non-Atari related hardware or software. This leads me to wonder, if he was able to review a copy, why was it never released commercially? Has anyone ever ran into a copy? What about any of the other four version 4 games?

 

Does anyone know anything about these?

 

My memory was these where a new generation of Infocom games and required 128K minimum- magazines at the time made a big deal about that. I think they came to the ST, but not the 8-bit. This was probably a misprint.

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  • 1 month later...
On 5/28/2019 at 4:51 PM, zzip said:

 

My memory was these where a new generation of Infocom games and required 128K minimum- magazines at the time made a big deal about that. I think they came to the ST, but not the 8-bit. This was probably a misprint.


I believe Infocom tried their best to get information out in a format that could be easily understood. This sometimes meant simplifying information to a point where it wasn't enitrely true. I.e. they may have said that these titles required 128 KB or RAM, even if it was theoretically possible to play them on a machine with 64 KB of RAM and a large capacity disk drive. When considering which games to sell for which platforms, they may have decided that the games would be too slow on platforms with less than 128 KB, or that they would require disk drives that were so rare that it didn't make sense to market the games for these platforms. Perhaps that magazine got some early information that the game would be released for some Atari 8-bit, but then Infocom changed their minds.

 

All of these games can be played on a Commodore 64 now. If the Commodore 64 had been blessed with a fast, cheap, large capacity disk drive, I'm sure more of these games would have been released for the C64 (Nord and Bert was indeed released for the C64).

 

 

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6 hours ago, fredrik said:

All of these games can be played on a Commodore 64 now. If the Commodore 64 had been blessed with a fast, cheap, large capacity disk drive, I'm sure more of these games would have been released for the C64 (Nord and Bert was indeed released for the C64).

 

Cheap and large capacity yes, but to get it fast you needed some kind of mod. In the meantime we Atarians can keep up size-wise as well.

Thanks for your work on Ozmoo!

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4 hours ago, slx said:

Cheap and large capacity yes, but to get it fast you needed some kind of mod. In the meantime we Atarians can keep up size-wise as well.

Thanks for your work on Ozmoo!

Games like Trinity and AMFV need a disk drive with about 240 KB accessible without switching or flipping disks. The C64 had the C1541, which only had about 170 KB per side, and could only access one side at a time. The C128 had the C1571 which could access both sides and thus had about 340 KB accessible.

 

Ozmoo has build modes for dual C1541 disk drives (340 KB) or a C1581 disk drive (3.5", 800 KB), to play these bigger games.

 

Adding fastload code is on our todo-list. Currently, Ozmoo is faster than Infocom's interpreters for z3-games, but about 30% slower for z5 games, when using a real disk drive and no memory expansion.

 

You're welcome! :)

 

 

 

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On the A8 most people would be going for an SIO2SD or SIO2PC (serial or USB) type device and so can play larger sized disk (ATR) images meaning an 'all-in-one' Z file can be used rather than splitting this across disks.

Also most of the newer cartridges that support mounting ATR images from an SD or CF card. On all of these sector access times are good and so would make playing a game acceptable.

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Our goal with Ozmoo was to create a terp that can be used with a vanilla Commodore 64 + 1541 disk drive, because that's how some people want to enjoy their text adventures. Also, it will run fine (and faster!) if you replace the 1541 drive with an SD2IEC, a 1541 Ultimate or a Pi1541. And it will benefit from a RAM expansion cart if you have one. And of course, it will run fine in an emulator.

 

If you want to write a Z-code terp that benefits from modern large capacity drives, it's essential that these drives support either raw block access (read sector 5 on track 3) or fast file seeks (start reading from byte 65536 in file story.z5). We opted for the lowest common denominator - using raw block access on a 1541 disk (or disk image). This works on all hardware, and gets really fast on the modern devices.

 

There are some other terps for the C64 which one may want to consider, if one would be looking for something to port to Atari:

 

There is an interpreter which requires a RAM expansion, called Zeugma. It's a lot faster than Ozmoo, it has no limit on dynamic memory size like Ozmoo, it can fit 53 characters per line through the use of a highres screen and a 6 pixel wide font. Zeugma doesn't support z3 stories, it can't save or restore the game state, and the code is heavily based on the assumption that there's a RAM expansion holding the story data.

 

Also, there is Infocom64, a revised version of Infocom's z3, z4 and z5 interpreters which skips the raw block access and loads story data from a regular file instead. To do this, the story data has to be on an uIEC (SD2IEC) drive or the C64 must have a RAM expansion cart installed. Also, since this terp is based on Infocom's code, the legal situation is messy.

 

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  • 3 years later...

Today i was sorting several old Text adventures to use on my Atari 130XE and AVG card, and remembered that our Atari 8bit misses some Infocom games. 

Then I read this old topic.

 

So, are there any 2022 updates concerning a working Infocom Z4/5 -interpreter for the Atari 8bit computers ?

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  • 3 weeks later...

I've been thinking over the years of trying to port Frotz like I did Moria, and did some hacking around tonight.  I quickly commented out the picture and sound code just to see how large the executable would end up being, and it's going to be much larger than can fit into the Atari memory, so I think if I continue this I will target a cartridge instead. I think that it's the only way to port Frotz with most of the features (excluding sound and pictures).

 

So the idea is:

  • port the Frotz code to run out of cartridge with banking where necessary
  • allow a DOS boot so disk access is possible
  • load the story file into extended memory (V3 files can be 128k, V5 can be 256k, and V6+ can be 512k)

Still need to "cc65-ize" the code fully and write the os_* functions to write to the screen and other hardware to even see if it will run at an acceptable speed and how much optimization is needed.

 

Hopefully someone will port Ozmoo, as it sounds like a more elegant and optimized program for the 8-bit computers.

Edited by Shawn Jefferson
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2 hours ago, Shawn Jefferson said:

I've been thinking over the years of trying to port Frotz like I did Moria, and did some hacking around tonight.  I quickly commented out the picture and sound code just to see how large the executable would end up being, and it's going to be much larger than can fit into the Atari memory, so I think if I continue this I will target a cartridge instead. I think that it's the only way to port Frotz with most of the features (excluding sound and pictures).

 

So the idea is:

  • port the Frotz code to run out of cartridge with banking where necessary
  • allow a DOS boot so disk access is possible
  • load the story file into extended memory (V3 files can be 128k, V5 can be 256k, and V6+ can be 512k)

Still need to "cc65-ize" the code fully and write the os_* functions to write to the screen and other hardware to even see if it will run at an acceptable speed and how much optimization is needed.

 

Hopefully someone will port Ozmoo, as it sounds like a more elegant and optimized program for the 8-bit computers.

 

For the screen-write code are you going to check for VBXE and use 64/80 characters if VBXE is installed, rather than just the standard Atari 40?

 

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8 hours ago, Shawn Jefferson said:

I've been thinking over the years of trying to port Frotz like I did Moria, and did some hacking around tonight.  I quickly commented out the picture and sound code just to see how large the executable would end up being, and it's going to be much larger than can fit into the Atari memory, so I think if I continue this I will target a cartridge instead. I think that it's the only way to port Frotz with most of the features (excluding sound and pictures).

 

So the idea is:

  • port the Frotz code to run out of cartridge with banking where necessary
  • allow a DOS boot so disk access is possible
  • load the story file into extended memory (V3 files can be 128k, V5 can be 256k, and V6+ can be 512k)

Still need to "cc65-ize" the code fully and write the os_* functions to write to the screen and other hardware to even see if it will run at an acceptable speed and how much optimization is needed.

 

Hopefully someone will port Ozmoo, as it sounds like a more elegant and optimized program for the 8-bit computers.

Have you had a look at PitchDark?

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8 hours ago, bfollowell said:

 

For the screen-write code are you going to check for VBXE and use 64/80 characters if VBXE is installed, rather than just the standard Atari 40?

 

I did think of writing a VBXE version as well, but that would be a way off... let's just see if the thing will even work at all. :)

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Naive question/suggestion:

Does the updated parser alone (no data) really not fit into 48K?

If it's about data size, what about assuming a larger format disk and loading and unloading data off that?   (Did Infocom even use DD format?).   I always thought Infocom games basically swapped data all the time.

 

Everyone has a DD disk (or loads virtual images, be it a hard disk image in an emulator, or on FujiNet..)

 

 

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Maybe if it's all written in assembly, but Frotz is in C, and yea, it compiles to well over the 64k range just out of the box with no OS interaction routines.

 

The other "problems" are:

  • The Z-machine is actually a virtualized hardware machine with it's own opcodes and memory space.  As I mentioned this can be 128k, 256k, or 512k depending on version.  Some of this memory is "dynamic" so really must be in RAM somewhere, this can be up to 64k if I am reading the standard correctly, although in practice is probably much smaller.  The rest is static and code, so can be loaded off disk (making of course, the virtual z-machine memory access more complicated and your main code larger).  The z-machine also has it's own stack for routine call addresses and local variables, this is in addition to the z-machine memory and must be somewhere in RAM as well.
  • On the Atari the extra ram banking area is very large, 16k, and that is right in the middle of the memory map ($4000-7FFF), so you have to be very careful with code placement when trying to use banked memory.  Your main code cannot be in this space if you plan on accessing that extra memory from that code, or once you bank out, your program crashes.

The Ozmoo team solved most of these problems on the C-64, so it's possible for sure.  I don't have the expertise, or interest to port that, but hopefully someone else does and will do it.  The C-64 has more usable main RAM typically, so any Atari port is likely to need to start very low in RAM ($400 or lower, which means probably no DOS), and use the RAM under the OS as well.  I suppose you could juggle around the extra RAM banking area, but it's complicated (16k hole in main memory), where-as the REU on the C65 only uses a 256 byte bank window (I believe).

 

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For the cartridge ports I had the A8 Z3 interpreter running in 8K ROM. I'd stick with the approach of expanding upon this to incorporate the differences to make a separate Z4 and Z5 interpreter. Ultimately I'd love a single binary that hooks the different version functions in as needed from the version detected in the game file.

The issue with the Z4/5 interpreters is that the potential resident RAM portion of the game is larger than that of Z3 and hence the 128K minimum is introduced. However, I don't see that an issue with the $4000-$7FFF window being used. Code can then easily reside under this but can go above and permit a DOS to remain resident too. Screenwise, for 80-columns, the user can be given the option of using a software, VBXE or XEP80 and load the appropriate driver.

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On 5/24/2019 at 5:00 PM, bfollowell said:

"In addition to being a big Atari computer fan,"

"I'm also a big fan of text adventures in general"

"Infocom specifically."

 

"As far as I knew, none of the version 4 Z-code games, A Mind Forever Voyaging, Bureaucracy, Nord and Bert Couldn't Make Head or Tail of It, and Trinity were ever released for the Atari 8-bits, and definitely nothing beyond that."
"So, imagine my surprise when I was looking through Analog Issue #58, October 1987, when I saw that Steve Panak reviewed Bureaucracy." 

I edited down the quotes for the relevant portions... of the first three statements... YOU are my friend. :)

Of the latter two, my mind is officially blown. I had no idea there were ANY Infocom text adventures that were NOT released on the A8!! Nord and Bert MAYBE, but Bureaucracy?!?! Even Trinity surprises me. I looked up Bureaucracy and it even came out on the Apple II, so mind blown.  I know I SAW Bureaucracy back in the day in computer shops and considered buying it. I would not have if it was not for my 800xl because I learned early on about incompatibility between 2600 carts and xl ones, IBM vs Apple, and though many titles had both C64 and A8 on the same disk, many did not: Always wanted 'Skyfox' to not be a c64 game. Did a TEXT adventure really push our beloved 64k beyond its ceiling?? 

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7 minutes ago, seastalker said:

I edited down the quotes for the relevant portions... of the first three statements... YOU are my friend. :)

Of the latter two, my mind is officially blown. I had no idea there were ANY Infocom text adventures that were NOT released on the A8!! Nord and Bert MAYBE, but Bureaucracy?!?! Even Trinity surprises me. I looked up Bureaucracy and it even came out on the Apple II, so mind blown.  I know I SAW Bureaucracy back in the day in computer shops and considered buying it. I would not have if it was not for my 800xl because I learned early on about incompatibility between 2600 carts and xl ones, IBM vs Apple, and though many titles had both C64 and A8 on the same disk, many did not: Always wanted 'Skyfox' to not be a c64 game. Did a TEXT adventure really push our beloved 64k beyond its ceiling?? 

 

There were actually quite a few Infocom games that never came out for the 8-bit. The only games we got were the z3 titles, nothing higher. Off the top of my head, none of the games below were released for the 8-bits, though several of them made it to the ST line.

 

A Mind Forever Voyaging
Trinity
Beyond Zork
Bureaucracy
Nord and Bert Couldn't Make Head or Tail of It
Border Zone
Sherlock
Zork Zero
Journey
Shogun
Arthur

 

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I remember some of the twilight years of Infocom games didn't make it to our aging A8s, especially when they started adding graphics like they did with Battle Tech. I can 'believe' your list from Nord... through Arthur. Beyond Zork too. Trinity and 'A Mind Forever Voyaging' surprise me. I mean, I subscribed to their mailed magazines 'The Status Line' and whatever their newsletter was called. Even look at my screen name and thumbnail!  I like the idea of porting any missing titles to the A8 but lack the skills.  I'd love the SOUND version of Lurking Horror to get some love too.

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