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What's Your Pipe Dream Games On The Jag.

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8 hours ago, swapd0 said:

Who cares, it's an awesome game.

It is and that's exactly the kind of thing i have been trying to get across. 

 

I loved Bubble Bobble on the Rainbow Islands Collection, i didn't care it was based on the ST code as Taito couldn't supply the Coin-Op code, it was just another chance to play Bubble Bobble on my home system.

 

If people want to play Beast Busters on the Jaguar and the ST version was a respectable enough conversion,  then better a proven conversion in the hand, than a built from scratch clone, in the bush.

 

From what I know, one of the hardest aspects of making a game, is solid game design and that's been done in the case of titles like :Switchblade, Defender of The Crown,  Head Over Heels, Xenon II or any other title that gets described as a lame ST port on social media.

 

CyranoJ has taken time out to explain the process of just bringing ST code to the Jaguar and it's not straightforward. 

 

Another World developers explain whilst the Jaguar hardware is utilised to enhance Another World, it's still the ST game.

 

Who cares what the codes origin is, if it means the community gets yet another new Jaguar title to enjoy,  it's a good thing.

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Can I make a future request to Cyrano J for Double Dragon 2 from the atari ST? It's a very close to arcade port and if arcade music could be added like in "Joust" it would be a great beat'em up,  TMNT is OK, but was not as good a port from the arcade as Double Dragon 2.  My "pipedream"  on the Jaguar, with a "hint" of possible.  

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A cute Tower Defense game.

Not a port of course, but inspired by this. It's not really a pipe dream, as something similar could be done.

 

 

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On 1/17/2020 at 9:21 AM, Lost Dragon said:

It is and that's exactly the kind of thing i have been trying to get across. 

 

I loved Bubble Bobble on the Rainbow Islands Collection, i didn't care it was based on the ST code as Taito couldn't supply the Coin-Op code, it was just another chance to play Bubble Bobble on my home system.

 

If people want to play Beast Busters on the Jaguar and the ST version was a respectable enough conversion,  then better a proven conversion in the hand, than a built from scratch clone, in the bush.

 

From what I know, one of the hardest aspects of making a game, is solid game design and that's been done in the case of titles like :Switchblade, Defender of The Crown,  Head Over Heels, Xenon II or any other title that gets described as a lame ST port on social media.

 

CyranoJ has taken time out to explain the process of just bringing ST code to the Jaguar and it's not straightforward. 

 

Another World developers explain whilst the Jaguar hardware is utilised to enhance Another World, it's still the ST game.

 

Who cares what the codes origin is, if it means the community gets yet another new Jaguar title to enjoy,  it's a good thing.

Another World is not exactly a ST game, as the graphics are from the 15th anniversary PC edition and are wonderfully modernized, also the devs obtained the source code and optimized it for the Jaguar, so that it runs perfectly fluid opposed to the more sluggish SNES and ST versions.

I have nothing against ST ports though: they are Atari games and its a not easy to get them running on orginal hardware. A lot of people are requesting them for nostalgic reasons and they want more Atari games on the Jaguar. Its a win win situation.  Don't forget about the original homebrew projects of Reboot, Sporadic and others though, e.g., "The Last Strike", bringing something new and fresh to the table. They require a lot of hard work, those devs are willing to spend hours of their freetime into crafting original projects without expecting people throwing money at them.  

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On 1/17/2020 at 3:53 AM, WAVE 1 GAMES said:

My point is you don't make your own boxes. You don't make your own manuals. You don't solder your own boards (except for those release candidate carts I ASSUME) You dont invest YOUR own money. You just program the games and hand it off to others to handle. You can't really be preaching about something you don't really do. I CAN speak from experience on expenses out of pocket to do a release. Because I pay for it all. And I CAN speak about marketing and advertising. Its all very hard especially when you have groups of people launching their own ANTI-advertising campaign against your products.

 

But none of that matters. I wasn't arguing with you, I agreed with your statement

Good Writers write good books people like to read, its about quality of content and and the skills to do intellectual work, nobody expects them to cut paper and do shiny packaging.  Same with writing games, it's not about doing shiny boxes in the first place. Make a worthy game that justifies a shiny box. There is a guy on ebay selling "Alone in the Dark" Jaguar boxes without an actual game. I hope you get the irony in that.

Edited by agradeneu
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48 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Another World is not exactly a ST game, as the graphics are from the 15th anniversary PC edition and are wonderfully modernized, also the devs obtained the source code and optimized it for the Jaguar, so that it runs perfectly fluid opposed to the more sluggish SNES and ST versions.

I have nothing against ST ports though: they are Atari games and its a not easy to get them running on orginal hardware. A lot of people are requesting them for nostalgic reasons and they want more Atari games on the Jaguar. Its a win win situation.  Don't forget about the original homebrew projects of Reboot, Sporadic and others though, e.g., "The Last Strike", bringing something new and fresh to the table. They require a lot of hard work, those devs are willing to spend hours of their freetime into crafting original projects without expecting people throwing money at them.  

I tend to class titles like Another World on Jaguar, as Steve Austin projects, they are built using modern technology, but it's  new flesh on the basic structure (bones,nervous system etc)  of the original.

 

A perfect melding of the old and the new.

 

It's a Bionic version if you like, but it's still Steve Austin :-) 

 

A lot of the ST to Jaguar ports are European titles and many Jaguar owners probably never got to experience them the first time around or no longer have an ST, so it's exactly that, a Win-win situation to have them appear now, but you try making that case on YT Comments sections.

 

I do anything but forget the graft that goes into something like Rebootoids,  it's when you see snide remarks online and in reviews claiming it's nothing special and they'd of been better off porting existing ST games to Jaguar instead that highlights the ignorance still present within certain quarters of the Atari community. 

 

That and false claims that Piko and Atari Age had no rights to convert titles to start with.

 

Education goes someway to address these blights, but it's a long road to travel.

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36 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Good Writers write good books people like to read, its about quality of content and and the skills to do intellectual work, nobody expects them to cut paper and do shiny packaging.  Same with writing games, it's not about doing shiny boxes in the first place. Make a worthy game that justifies a shiny box. There is a guy on ebay selling "Alone in the Dark" Jaguar boxes without an actual game. I hope you get the irony in that.

What, hold up.. 

 

There's an individual selling a box for a title that was merely talked about in the likes of ST Format Magazine and a few others, a title we have yet to have officially confirmed was even ear marked for Jaguar (unless Jenovi has some Interplay sources yet to share)..

 

Just wow :-)) 

 

Good writers do good research, use multiple sources, have good proof readers and editors and take constructive criticism of previous works on-board to improve future volumes and take time to write good material. 

 

I'm talking purely Gaming Books here, having spent a lot of time and money buying them and assisting with others.

 

It's when people cut corners and substitute imagery as original images cannot be obtained, copy and paste text from existing sources, have little understanding of the subject material etc that kills a book in my mind.

 

Boasting of high page counts, C-list social media guest reviewers etc are no substitute for good old fashioned research and writing.

 

Seems there's a book out from someone on YT almost every month these days.

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2 hours ago, Lost Dragon said:

What, hold up.. 

 

There's an individual selling a box for a title that was merely talked about in the likes of ST Format Magazine and a few others, a title we have yet to have officially confirmed was even ear marked for Jaguar (unless Jenovi has some Interplay sources yet to share)..

 

Just wow :-)) 

 

Good writers do good research, use multiple sources, have good proof readers and editors and take constructive criticism of previous works on-board to improve future volumes and take time to write good material. 

 

I'm talking purely Gaming Books here, having spent a lot of time and money buying them and assisting with others.

 

It's when people cut corners and substitute imagery as original images cannot be obtained, copy and paste text from existing sources, have little understanding of the subject material etc that kills a book in my mind.

 

Boasting of high page counts, C-list social media guest reviewers etc are no substitute for good old fashioned research and writing.

 

Seems there's a book out from someone on YT almost every month these days.

Isn't "Alone in the Dark" from Infogrames?

 

Also found some info for the Jaguar version of AW on Wiki, seems like you can count it as a remaster:

 

"An Atari Jaguar port of Another World was originally in development and planned to be published by Interplay in September 1994 but it was never released.[24][25][26][27][28][29] In 2012, the Jaguar port of the game was confirmed and approved by Chahi. It was released as a limited collector's item in cartridge form, complete with a box and manual published by the association Retro-Gaming Connexion (RGC) in 2013. The game engine was rewritten especially for the Atari Jaguar to make use of the console's several processors: the GPU and blitter perform polygon rendering; the GPU performs on-the-fly data decompression; the DSP plays stereo music and sound effects; and the 68000 CPU performs JIT compilation and execution of the scripts. The Jaguar version is playable in the original graphics 16-color mode and Deluxe 15th Anniversary graphics 256-color mode. It can be played in normal and speed-run modes. It supports five languages: English, German, French, Italian, and Spanish.[30][31]"

Edited by agradeneu
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1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

Isn't "Alone in the Dark" from Infogrames?

 

Also found some info for the Jaguar version of AW on Wiki, seems like you can count it as a remaster:

 

"An Atari Jaguar port of Another World was originally in development and planned to be published by Interplay in September 1994 but it was never released.[24][25][26][27][28][29] In 2012, the Jaguar port of the game was confirmed and approved by Chahi. It was released as a limited collector's item in cartridge form, complete with a box and manual published by the association Retro-Gaming Connexion (RGC) in 2013. The game engine was rewritten especially for the Atari Jaguar to make use of the console's several processors: the GPU and blitter perform polygon rendering; the GPU performs on-the-fly data decompression; the DSP plays stereo music and sound effects; and the 68000 CPU performs JIT compilation and execution of the scripts. The Jaguar version is playable in the original graphics 16-color mode and Deluxe 15th Anniversary graphics 256-color mode. It can be played in normal and speed-run modes. It supports five languages: English, German, French, Italian, and Spanish.[30][31]"

Interplay published the 3DO version of Alone In The Dark (Krisalis did the conversion)  and were supposed to be publishing the 32X and Jaguar versions or so press claimed.

 

32X version one magazine later claimed they had been given false information on.

 

Another World does indeed sound like a remaster,  but one that still uses the 68000 for key tasks.

 

My gripe with the comments  regarding certain aspects of the Jaguar community on social media sites like YT:

 

You see the same number of thumbs down votes popping up on videos by Atari Age, Piko Interactive,  CyranoJ for both ST ports and Original titles like Last Strike etc...funny that, almost as if it's the same minority downvoting out of something other than thoughts on games themselves.

 

 

Then there's the more genuine types, who at least post a comment as to why they feel displeasure...games are priced higher than they expected, they wanted ambitious 3D games, had hoped the conversion would use graphics from the GBA/PC or CD32 versions.. those at least take time to explain themselves.

 

It's the claims by commentators and indeed reviewers a game is a lazy port to the Jaguar or there's no excuse for the graphics not being updated (that's been aimed at Theme Park and Syndicate). 

 

Or worse yet..Looks like a 16-bit game (yeah...that is because it is) or expecting every puzzle game to be along the lines of Phear in terms of pushing the hardware.

 

Rather than even put the title into a search engine to see where it started life, it's straight into comments section with that sense of self entitlement. 

 

It's on Jaguar,  ergo i demand...

 

It just makes me wonder how much longer people who put time and effort into making new titles for the Jaguar will continue. 

 

I wouldn't blame em for thinking right, make this the last one, someone else's turn now.

 

Development fatigue has to set it sooner or later.

 

I looked at a Songbird video for the Jaguar early years cartridge.

 

Limited 250 copy run..

 

Seems like the most sensible number to aim for.

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On 1/16/2020 at 6:12 PM, JagChris said:

 

Is that what happened with OOTW? Trickle sales? 

 

Or the SD card? Saint couldn't handle the near 700 in trickle sales? 

That was a pent up demand for SD. Pretty much every one with a Jag that's actively in use wanted one. So that means at best 700 in sales. If you don't get pirated. Then there's the disconnected collects that pay scalpers bootleggers like the Laird on eBay that feeds on lack of supply and naity of the casual collector. He might make more since he sales his games for 120 a pop. Gatzee and piko sell for 50. Atari age song bird around 30- 80. But you might sell 20 at 50 that's just 1000 - pay and materials that's paltry even selling 200 at 50 is only 10k agian minus material shipping manufacturing the time out of some ones life. You should be greatful any games are released. The Jaguar is never going to live up to the what you think in your head maybe maybe quake prototype for Jag will be released maybe  dactyl joust or zone Hunter. Then you can see what the Jag was cappable of. 

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58 minutes ago, Lost Dragon said:

Interplay published the 3DO version of Alone In The Dark (Krisalis did the conversion)  and were supposed to be publishing the 32X and Jaguar versions or so press claimed.

 

32X version one magazine later claimed they had been given false information on.

 

Another World does indeed sound like a remaster,  but one that still uses the 68000 for key tasks.

 

My gripe with the comments  regarding certain aspects of the Jaguar community on social media sites like YT:

 

You see the same number of thumbs down votes popping up on videos by Atari Age, Piko Interactive,  CyranoJ for both ST ports and Original titles like Last Strike etc...funny that, almost as if it's the same minority downvoting out of something other than thoughts on games themselves.

 

 

Then there's the more genuine types, who at least post a comment as to why they feel displeasure...games are priced higher than they expected, they wanted ambitious 3D games, had hoped the conversion would use graphics from the GBA/PC or CD32 versions.. those at least take time to explain themselves.

 

It's the claims by commentators and indeed reviewers a game is a lazy port to the Jaguar or there's no excuse for the graphics not being updated (that's been aimed at Theme Park and Syndicate). 

 

Or worse yet..Looks like a 16-bit game (yeah...that is because it is) or expecting every puzzle game to be along the lines of Phear in terms of pushing the hardware.

 

Rather than even put the title into a search engine to see where it started life, it's straight into comments section with that sense of self entitlement. 

 

It's on Jaguar,  ergo i demand...

 

It just makes me wonder how much longer people who put time and effort into making new titles for the Jaguar will continue. 

 

I wouldn't blame em for thinking right, make this the last one, someone else's turn now.

 

Development fatigue has to set it sooner or later.

 

I looked at a Songbird video for the Jaguar early years cartridge.

 

Limited 250 copy run..

 

Seems like the most sensible number to aim for.

The main reason for all the downvotes on yt is that there are two groups having a feud. I just ignore them (the downvotes). For what really matters,  I think it's important to listen to reasonable complaints and wishes of your audience/fans. It's mostly much more nuanced. I myself contribute to Jaguar gaming but there are certain things about it I don't like. Sugarcoating things is more convenient and most people naturally don't like to hear the truth if it does not serve them. Honestly, Theme Park and Syndicate were disappointing offerings, they could have been better and its not reasonable to tell your consumers to lower their standards. I play a lot of systems and I don't lower or deny my standards about how games IMO should be, to be enjoyable for me. Its not wise to be dishonest, just to show off your unconditional commitment to something you think you love.  I had a nice talk with a Lynx dev at EJagfest 2 years ago. He saw "Super Burn Out" for the first time, his reaction was honest and genuine: Well, it's an impressive engine he said, but lots of the graphics, like the fonts look really lacklustre, like they did not even bother. Give that thing to any capable homebrew artist today and he would have come with something more pleasant than this, with a little effort. I agreed saying: Well its another wasted opportinity, but that is true for the Jaguar itself, it was a wasted opportunity, right from the start. So the lesson for me was simple: Don't waste another opportunity. From time to time I play some sessions of Rayman, just to remind me what the benchmark is and really should be.

Edited by agradeneu
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I would like to wrap this up, as it's going off tangent,  but it does annoy when Switchblade gets critiscm for it's visuals.

 

Simon Phipps has gone on record explaining it was done in his spare time, even he doesn't consider it a true 16 bit title..

 

Same for Jeff Minters works now on Jaguar, Jeff was hardly competing with Thalion or The Bitmap Bros for the graphics crown anymore than Sensible Software were.

 

Syndicate i bought at day 1 release on Jaguar, overpriced for what was an Amiga conversion,  clunky controls on the Joypad and the bloody pointless zoom function were my biggest gripes at the time.

 

But it was still Syndicate. 

 

Had i stayed with the Mega Drive until the PlayStation arrived and had to endure that conversion.. I would not of been a happy bunny.

 

Theme Park it's a management sim and yes some versions got rendered footage of the rides as window dressing, but it was never a graphics tart style game on any system at it's heart.

 

 

Rayman was gorgeous and introduced me to the series and I went onto love Rayman 2 and Rayman Origins and it's exactly the type of title Atari needed on the Jaguar.

 

But my memories of it are soured somewhat by all the nonsense about Sony holding the Jaguar release back (all been discussed to death on the specific thread and best left there).

 

As an outsider looking in on the Jaguar scene just via the mediums of YT and discussion threads on here, i do wonder where the scene will be in a few years time.

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4 minutes ago, Lost Dragon said:

I would like to wrap this up, as it's going off tangent,  but it does annoy when Switchblade gets critiscm for it's visuals.

 

Simon Phipps has gone on record explaining it was done in his spare time, even he doesn't consider it a true 16 bit title..

 

Same for Jeff Minters works now on Jaguar, Jeff was hardly competing with Thalion or The Bitmap Bros for the graphics crown anymore than Sensible Software were.

 

Syndicate i bought at day 1 release on Jaguar, overpriced for what was an Amiga conversion,  clunky controls on the Joypad and the bloody pointless zoom function were my biggest gripes at the time.

 

But it was still Syndicate. 

 

Had i stayed with the Mega Drive until the PlayStation arrived and had to endure that conversion.. I would not of been a happy bunny.

 

Theme Park it's a management sim and yes some versions got rendered footage of the rides as window dressing, but it was never a graphics tart style game on any system at it's heart.

 

 

Rayman was gorgeous and introduced me to the series and I went onto love Rayman 2 and Rayman Origins and it's exactly the type of title Atari needed on the Jaguar.

 

But my memories of it are soured somewhat by all the nonsense about Sony holding the Jaguar release back (all been discussed to death on the specific thread and best left there).

 

As an outsider looking in on the Jaguar scene just via the mediums of YT and discussion threads on here, i do wonder where the scene will be in a few years time.

Theme Park looks adorable and I really love the content. I also like the use of the keypads as hotkeys, it is really clever. However the game is buggy and broken, a soon as some of your customers get stuck somewhere in your park the games falls apart. Slowdown is all over the place anyway, most of the time.  

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5 hours ago, Kalani said:

That was a pent up demand for SD. Pretty much every one with a Jag that's actively in use wanted one. So that means at best 700 in sales...

No that means that just those who had $200 immediate disposable cash to spend at that time. 

 

And there are still more popping up looking for it. 

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6 hours ago, Kalani said:

That was a pent up demand for SD. Pretty much every one with a Jag that's actively in use wanted one. So that means at best 700 in sales. If you don't get pirated. Then there's the disconnected collects that pay scalpers bootleggers like the Laird on eBay that feeds on lack of supply and naity of the casual collector. He might make more since he sales his games for 120 a pop. Gatzee and piko sell for 50. Atari age song bird around 30- 80. But you might sell 20 at 50 that's just 1000 - pay and materials that's paltry even selling 200 at 50 is only 10k agian minus material shipping manufacturing the time out of some ones life. You should be greatful any games are released. The Jaguar is never going to live up to the what you think in your head maybe maybe quake prototype for Jag will be released maybe  dactyl joust or zone Hunter. Then you can see what the Jag was cappable of. 

I just read the rest of this unnecessarily snarky post. It's apparent you're just out to troll. As long as guys like you are polluting the community it will never live up to its potential. So you're right about that.

 

Welcome to my ignore list

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It seems you guys are trying to gauge what a new release can sell in terms of units. Hopefully the following data can help you guys grasp the market.

 

Wave 1 Games Sales  (2017-2020)

 

Fast Food 64 - 300+ (and still selling)

JagZombies - 300+ (and still selling)

Frogz 64 - 141 (no longer moving)

Fast Food 64 Holiday Snacks - 78

Ants - 56 (still selling slowly)

Frogz 64 Xmas - 21 CD/25 cart

Saucer Wars - 27

 

 

So over the course of 3 years and 7 game releases I have 948+ units sold. I'm not sure if that data helps you guys come to terms with the market or not. If something like Phear or Dactyl Joust were released in their prototype form I would be willing to guess that those games would move 250-300 units. I'm not sure a Quake prototype would even be possible on the Jag. Yes I have seen Doom, AVP, Wolfenstein and the Heretic demo, but I'm still not convinced it can do Quake. But that's a whole other can of worms I don't want to open.

There are other factors that go into a Jaguar games release that people seem to be overlooking. Limited runs such as Battle Sphere and Another World are good examples. Nearly everyone agrees that although very nice looking in the graphics department, BSG is a pretty much average game that some people even find boring. The fact that it was shiny and new and produced in a limited quantity may have been what fueld all of the units to be moved. Another World can be purchased right now for PS4 or Nintendo Switch for $10 and it's a BETTER version than the Jaguar version. Again these same factors apply.

 

 

Anyway the more that time goes on the less people will be interested in Jaguar. The interest isn't going to GROW. Right now there are some FANTASTIC 7800 games available in the AtariAge store and elsewhere. AAA TITLES! But I can guarantee those games aren't producing the same kind of sales as stuff from other consoles just because the interest level in 7800 has to be dwindling down after all of these years. You also have to take into consideration the consoles natural decline in interest.

 

Look at the Jaguar Game Drive from SainT. This is the final stop in the road for some people. They want this just to archive the Jaguar and run the original library of games amd possibly a few homebrews that have been made freely available over the years and thats it! They're done. I even had one user ADMIT this to me in another forum, that he didn't intend on EVER buying anything new for the Jaguar once he got his hands on the Game Drive that it would remain in the console forever.

 

Thats no disrespect at all to SainT or his product. I actually like that dude, (he's a nice guy) and if HE didn't make an SD cart somebody else would have eventually anyway, that was inevitable. Just like the decline of an already niche market.

 

Anyway I'm saying all of this because if you are trying to predict sales numbers of a hypothetical killer game, there are way more factors involved than what some of you seem to think.

 

As to what CJ said earlier when we were going back and forth and I agreed with him, like he confirmed, releasing a game (on cart anyway) can really get expensive as shit! That's no joke. Not just for the raw cartridge materials. The printed materials can be expensive as well. At least when you are doing small runs like a Jaguar release they can. Also add to the fact that the Jaguar user base is WORLDWIDE and spread out among its minority of fans and then you get into what I call shipping HELL. Tarrifs and newly enforced import fees can add to the cost of production.

 

Im not sure how Piko keeps up to be honest. Props to him, I would imagine most of the production funds for his new Jag releases come from his new releases on OTHER consoles.

 

 

This turned into a ramble. Sorry. Wasn't my intention....

 

EDIT--- 700 units sold on any new game for the Jaguar is an unrealistic goal/expectation. It doesn't matter what game it is. That's just not going to happen

Edited by WAVE 1 GAMES
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It happened. Jesus Christ. A 200 Dollar unit sold 700 instantly. Made seller curl up into a fetal position.

 

Two 200 runs of Another World sold out instantly. 

 

400+ 

 

Look I'm not going to keep repeating myself. You guys are denying reality that's right in front of your eyes. This is the potential salesof an AA title. Some maybe seem to be negative just for it's own sake.

Some are making false equivalencies. 

 

I'm done repeat it. You guys can go whatever and hopefully readers can make their informed decision. 

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I had quite a few stuff in my video game collection before selling it off to ebay, which was quite a lot of stuff... From the Vectrex, Atari Lynx, Fairchild console with about 11 games, Sega CD with a crap load of CD titles and cartridges, Dreamcast with 20+ games, just a whole slew of retro stuff that I sold on ebay shipping whole console lots out of the door myself. People were really buying these games collections, but that's because I had good little collection of stuff and it sold especially when the price was right. I had the good stuff and not a lot of sports games that you'll see in bulks on ebay at cheap prices that tends to sit for sale for a long time either. The lesson I got out of that little selling experience is that people will buy the games if it's good enough especially if you have exclusives like the portable "Turbo Graphics 16 console" that I was fortunate to have two of them from a thrift store find for $38. lol 

 

I think if the game is of a reasonable quality, people will buy depending how good the game is, but it would be a niche audience because of how old the game system is. The experience kind of showed me something about selling retro games and that's the fact the people will buy if the game is really good, everyone likes to buy a really good classic game that's really fun to play rather it pushes the game system or not. That's why I say if you consistently make really good titles over time, people will buy your stuff if it's good like they did with "Battlesphere" at $80 a cartridge in the beginning despite it taking a while to make; but I think it would always be a risk when considering how old the Jaguar is. There wasn't that many games released for the system so I think there some room for new titles... It depends on the developer.

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13 minutes ago, JagChris said:

It happened. Jesus Christ. A 200 Dollar unit sold 700 instantly. Made seller curl up into a fetal position.

 

Two 200 runs of Another World sold out instantly. 

 

400+ 

 

Look I'm not going to keep repeating myself. You guys are denying reality that's right in front of your eyes. This is the potential salesof an AA title. Some maybe seem to be negative just for it's own sake.

Some are making false equivalencies. 

 

I'm done repeat it. You guys can go whatever and hopefully readers can make their informed decision. 

 

 

But the Game Drive from SainT is something entirely different. It's not a stand alone game it falls into the category of Hardware. It is an extension of the Jaguar hardware and not a single title so you cant really use it as an example. I already knew Another World sold 400 copies, but are you SURE it sold out instantly or are was it more of sales over a 2-3 year course? Also how long ago was that? I'll tell you this much I have owned 3 OFFICIAL copies of Another World since it's release (I sold each one) so it wasn't too hard for me to get my hands on.

I'm not being negative at all. I'm just giving you input on where the market is.

 

 

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2 hours ago, WAVE 1 GAMES said:

 

 

But the Game Drive from SainT is something entirely different. It's not a stand alone game.

 

I'll touch on this. GD falls into the category of something people want to plug into their Jaguars cart slot really badly. Whether it's a game or something that plays a collection of games. And it was at $200 a pop. And apparently there were almost 700 customers out there with $200 disposable cash to spend at that time. This does not count the people who did not have that kind of disposable cash at that moment.

 

The numbers from other sales of things that people want to plug into their Jaguars cartridge slot really badly are comparable. 

So give the community something it wants to plug into their Jags really badly at a cheaper price more can afford sooner...

 

The two limited runs of Another World sold out quickly. They didn't sit around for two months let alone two years. And apparently demand is still high, hence the piracy. 

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6 hours ago, WAVE 1 GAMES said:

It seems you guys are trying to gauge what a new release can sell in terms of units. Hopefully the following data can help you guys grasp the market.

 

Wave 1 Games Sales  (2017-2020)

 

Fast Food 64 - 300+ (and still selling)

JagZombies - 300+ (and still selling)

Frogz 64 - 141 (no longer moving)

Fast Food 64 Holiday Snacks - 78

Ants - 56 (still selling slowly)

Frogz 64 Xmas - 21 CD/25 cart

Saucer Wars - 27

 

 

So over the course of 3 years and 7 game releases I have 948+ units sold. I'm not sure if that data helps you guys come to terms with the market or not. If something like Phear or Dactyl Joust were released in their prototype form I would be willing to guess that those games would move 250-300 units. I'm not sure a Quake prototype would even be possible on the Jag. Yes I have seen Doom, AVP, Wolfenstein and the Heretic demo, but I'm still not convinced it can do Quake. But that's a whole other can of worms I don't want to open.

There are other factors that go into a Jaguar games release that people seem to be overlooking. Limited runs such as Battle Sphere and Another World are good examples. Nearly everyone agrees that although very nice looking in the graphics department, BSG is a pretty much average game that some people even find boring. The fact that it was shiny and new and produced in a limited quantity may have been what fueld all of the units to be moved. Another World can be purchased right now for PS4 or Nintendo Switch for $10 and it's a BETTER version than the Jaguar version. Again these same factors apply.

 

 

Anyway the more that time goes on the less people will be interested in Jaguar. The interest isn't going to GROW. Right now there are some FANTASTIC 7800 games available in the AtariAge store and elsewhere. AAA TITLES! But I can guarantee those games aren't producing the same kind of sales as stuff from other consoles just because the interest level in 7800 has to be dwindling down after all of these years. You also have to take into consideration the consoles natural decline in interest.

 

Look at the Jaguar Game Drive from SainT. This is the final stop in the road for some people. They want this just to archive the Jaguar and run the original library of games amd possibly a few homebrews that have been made freely available over the years and thats it! They're done. I even had one user ADMIT this to me in another forum, that he didn't intend on EVER buying anything new for the Jaguar once he got his hands on the Game Drive that it would remain in the console forever.

 

Thats no disrespect at all to SainT or his product. I actually like that dude, (he's a nice guy) and if HE didn't make an SD cart somebody else would have eventually anyway, that was inevitable. Just like the decline of an already niche market.

 

Anyway I'm saying all of this because if you are trying to predict sales numbers of a hypothetical killer game, there are way more factors involved than what some of you seem to think.

 

As to what CJ said earlier when we were going back and forth and I agreed with him, like he confirmed, releasing a game (on cart anyway) can really get expensive as shit! That's no joke. Not just for the raw cartridge materials. The printed materials can be expensive as well. At least when you are doing small runs like a Jaguar release they can. Also add to the fact that the Jaguar user base is WORLDWIDE and spread out among its minority of fans and then you get into what I call shipping HELL. Tarrifs and newly enforced import fees can add to the cost of production.

 

Im not sure how Piko keeps up to be honest. Props to him, I would imagine most of the production funds for his new Jag releases come from his new releases on OTHER consoles.

 

 

This turned into a ramble. Sorry. Wasn't my intention....

 

EDIT--- 700 units sold on any new game for the Jaguar is an unrealistic goal/expectation. It doesn't matter what game it is. That's just not going to happen

Not bad cumulative sales if you consider other devs had worked 3 or more years on ONE AAA game and sold less copies. 

But really, developing for a niche platform like the Jaguar or Lynx is not motivated by sales numbers.  I'm sure genuine homebrew devs will keep doing their thing. 🙂 

For the 30th anniversary of the Lynx devs were doing more than a dozen demoes and even full games. Sales=0! Top quality game "Zaku" was developed over the course of 7 years and sold like 1000 copies since 2009 (!). That averages 100 per year. Looks like the Lynx is doomed. If you can't milk it anymore, let's panic and jump ship!

Edited by agradeneu

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Playing Devil's Advocate:

 

Maybe 300+ Fast Food/JagZombies explains 27 Saucer Wars...

 

 

Fool me once, etc...

 

 

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21 hours ago, agradeneu said:

Theme Park looks adorable and I really love the content. I also like the use of the keypads as hotkeys, it is really clever. However the game is buggy and broken, a soon as some of your customers get stuck somewhere in your park the games falls apart. Slowdown is all over the place anyway, most of the time.  

From that era, i found the BASE management side of Xcom far more to my liking, purely personal tastes mind.

 

But that was way too clunky on the Amiga and it wasn't until the PlayStation version arrived (running faster and with improved smoke effects and soundtrack)  the game really grabbed me.

 

Syndicate Wars was the perfect sequel in my eyes as well, but that's another story :-)) 

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