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Back to Atari world - some questions...


polbit

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I have sold all my 8-bit Ataris a number of years ago - new twins and job will do that to you sometimes... Fortunately I've been lucky enough to get back into my passion, and have real space this time to set up few systems. I'm working on an 800XL set up now, and have few questions. Forgive me if I'm asking something obvious, but I'm trying here!

 

I got a mint 800XL with chroma/luma, and 1084 monitor. I want to build it out fully, so here we go:

 

1. Does anyone make modern PSUs? I have an ingot that I'm using as a decoration and a donor for cables if I have to, and the old, case-matching big PS that should be safe, but I would love to get something new, like the Commodore guys seem to have in abundance...

 

2. Planning on getting Ultimate 1mb from Lotharek, anything non-obvious that I should know about?

 

3. Is VBXL worth it? I'm decent with a soldering iron (as long as it's not SMD stuff) so installation is not a problem...

 

Thanks, hopefully this will help not only me but others just getting into this as well, all in one place...

Edited by polbit
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You can use a strong USB PSU and either hack/solder a cable yourself or buy it on EBay.

 

If you like to tinker an SDrive Max can be made from an Arduino Uno, an Arduino touchscreen and a SIO cable for little money (especially using Chinese parts). With Ultimate/SIDE you shouldnt need it.

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I'm using an official Raspberry Pi PSU with a new connector for my 800XL (also using a 1084 monitor and Y/C video - excellent picture!), which is available for a few pounds and is specced for the same load as the original PSU. If you wanted to keep the ingot-style PSU however, there are lots of small industrial PSU modules used for all sorts of equipment that could be fitted inside the case. One example is the Mean Well RS-15-5, which gives 3A output.

Edited by Daedalus2097
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Welcome back to your passion..

 

Ultimate1MB a must (must get one for me at some point), a SIDE add on seems a good extra, an AVG cart for cheap really handy mass storage with a really easy to use system..

 

VBXE /XL, hmmmm.....I really hoped this had taken off, its so damn capable BUT its under supported so would not be top of my list...

 

PSU, as per the suggestions..A person handy with a soldering iron could knock one up dead cheap and the din ends are still common place..

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Thanks everyone, didn't realize SIDE card was a good match with Ultimate, since their functions overlap a lot. Too bad with VBXE/XL not taking off, the specs are pretty impressive...

 

Any opinions on the RAPIDUS? Haven't seen much coverage. Not really my thing, but it's interesting nonetheless.

 

I like the idea of a PSU inside the Ingot case, so I'll work on that.

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Rapidus is nice but its in the "do I need it" section, if you like things like Mercenary then its a must, what it can do is great but its a selection of titles....

 

If you do ray tracing or stuff like that then its dead handy, don't know if would speed up assembling code but maybe.....But you can see that its a niche thing for me, what it does it does well but will it be what you use?

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Thanks everyone, didn't realize SIDE card was a good match with Ultimate, since their functions overlap a lot.

U1MB and SIDE are tightly integrated when both devices are present, but each is entirely usable on its own:

 

Ultimate 1MB on its own:

  • Three different extended RAM upgrades, up to 1MB
  • 4 x OS switcher (user flashable)
  • 4 x BASIC ROM switcher (user flashable)
  • OS agnostic high-speed SIO driver (providing up to 127Kb/s)
  • SIO2BT support for wireless connection to disk servers
  • SpartaDOS X disk operating system
  • Real-time clock (used by SpartaDOS X for date/time stamps)
  • Setup menu with settings stored in battery-backed NVRAM

SIDE on its own:

  • SpartaDOS X
  • Real-time clock
  • XEX loader (also supports BASIC files and certain 8K ROM files) which supports multiple FAT16/FAT32 partitions and read-only CIO access to FAT-hosted files
  • Hard disk partitions accessible from SpartaDOS X

U1MB and SIDE together:

  • All of the above
  • DOS agnostic bootable, CF-based PBI hard disk
  • Loader providing support for bootable FAT-hosted ATR disk images, dynamic HDD partition mounting, multi-disk titles (with disk rotation button)

Although the original firmware provides much of the functionality described above, the exhaustive list assumes use of the aftermarket firmware described in this manual:

 

https://atari8.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Ultimate-1MB-Incognito-and-1088XEL-U1MB-Firmware-Manual.pdf

 

The AVG cart already mentioned has a SIDE emulation mode which provides much of the functionality of the SIDE cartridge (both stand-alone and in conjunction with U1MB), although the emulation mode must be explicitly enabled at the start of each session. AVG also lacks the RTC which in any case becomes redundant when the device is used with U1MB. Of course AVG has the advantage of being able to mount banked cartridge ROMs, a feature SIDE lacks (although a forthcoming firmware update includes all four OSS programming carts on the SIDE ROM).

 

Any opinions on the RAPIDUS? Haven't seen much coverage. Not really my thing, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Rapidus initially proved rather temperamental on machines already equipped with upgrades - U1MB in particular. Problems ranged from system instability to random unwanted cold reboots on RESET. Many problems were alleviated by Rapidus firmware updates and Lotharek even documents a modification to the EXTSEL signal on the Atari motherboard, intended to address Rapidus stability issues.

 

You can see the denouement of a four-part build of a 130XE with VBXE, U1MB and Rapidus here:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lfrrOTnJwM

 

The owner was satisfied with the machine's functionality, as I recall.

 

Rapidus may be used as a hard disk accelerator via the 'RAPIDISK' driver supplied with the U1MB firmware. The driver roughly doubles HDD bandwidth by running code from fast linear RAM.

 

Other interesting uses of the Rapidus include ZX Spectrum emulation. :)

 

Regarding VBXE: although VBXE is not overwhelmed by software specifically targeting the device, SpartaDOS X includes a screen driver which allows a VBXE machine to run with a very nice 80 column hardware display. VBXE is also designed to be controlled by U1MB where present; one may enable or disable the 'FX Core' via the U1MB setup menu and change the address at which the hardware is decoded.

Edited by flashjazzcat
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Rapidus is nice but its in the "do I need it" section, if you like things like Mercenary then its a must, what it can do is great but its a selection of titles....

 

If you do ray tracing or stuff like that then its dead handy, don't know if would speed up assembling code but maybe.....But you can see that its a niche thing for me, what it does it does well but will it be what you use?

That's the $1 question, what would I actually use it for ;) When I had the SuperCPU for Commodore 64, I used it very sporadically.

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My Rapidus lives in the spares box for most of the year until it's time to test another U1MB firmware update. I have not yet tried out the ZX Spectrum emulation I mentioned earlier, and find that I can live without the HDD speed boost offered by my 'RAPIDISK' driver. While I was honoured to receive (apparently) the 'SN/001' Rapidus as a gift from the vendor some three years ago, I did not have any particular desire to own one prior to that, nor any intention of purchasing one. As it turns out, I do need it for development work once in a while, so it's rather fortunate that Lotharek sent one.

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I was an early adopter of VBXE and converted/produced some stuff for it. These days I don't really have the time and haven't done any serious Atari stuff for over 5 years.

 

Sophia seems to be a more simple and affordable way to get similar decent video quality (I'm not sure on cost/availability there, can someone fill that in?) - another downside to VBXE is that it requires a 16 KHz old style RGB monitor, or modern day device that can handle that type of signal.

 

The ideal system - well, I think I'm near that. 800XL with VBXE and Ultimate 1 Meg built in. Externally, the choice of IDE +2 and a SIDE cartridge, as well as a bare board SIO2SD.

VBXE appears to be somewhat more affordable vs when I got mine around 10 years ago - about 50 to 70 bucks less.

 

If I was to add/change at the moment I'd consider a faster CPU (Rapidus?) and stereo Pokey.

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There are a couple of different Sophia board revisions; the earlier boards output 15KHz RGB or Component video, and more recently a DVI version became available. I'm not sure if there's any means of delivering audio across the DVI connector (I know DVI is able to support audio), so that's something to bear in mind. I've installed numerous VBXEs and a few RGB Sophias (although I don't own an example of the latter) with Atari ST-style DIN13 connectors which are able to carry the RGB video plus two channels of audio to a SCART or DB9/dual RCA connector at the other end of the cable. This minimises the amount of ugly modifications required on the back of the machine for those to whom aesthetics are a concern.

 

When I was testing a couple of Sophia boards last year, I found the component signal to be a bit patchy. It failed to work on a Samsung Plasma TV but worked OK on a Samsung 1080p LCD. RGB was solid across all displays I tried, meanwhile. I have not yet laid hands on a DVI version.

Edited by flashjazzcat
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This may be an unpopular opinion, but I really feel there's a line that you can cross in terms of upgrades. Stuff like U1MB and SIDE really expand the machines in-built capabilities. But if you're looking to replace the machines in-built capabilities by installing VBXE, Rapidus, etc. I feel you're better off looking at an ST or an Amiga. Those platforms have a lot more software available to take advantage of very similar CPU/graphics capability.

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It's a valid point of view. I don't so much feel that way towards VBXE (since I just use it for improved video quality 90 per cent of the time), but something about running the Atari 8-bit at 20MHz with with 14MHz of linear RAM still doesn't sit quite right for me. I completely get the argument that accelerators have been around forever and I have no ethical objection to others capitalising on accelerators, but I think the limitations of the machine in terms of computing power form part of its charm and its fascination. And regardless of the fact that coding for the 65C816 still presents some interesting challenges, I would prefer to target something like the Apple IIGS were I to focus on developing for that CPU.

 

That said, I also object to the indiscriminate use of illegal 6502C opcodes and I take pains wherever possible to ensure that my software does not depend on CPU speed for timing purposes. Where 65C816 support can be optionally provided, I'm happy to make provision for it (e.g. RAPIDISK for the U1MB).

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I know I'm late to this conversation, but I made 2 power supplies by buying this Midi cable:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01CQR5L1C/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Cutting it in half and then wiring each half to one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ERJIA42/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Seems to be working well for me and not too costly. ($25.50 for two chargers....)

 

-Todd

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  • 3 weeks later...

Ok, got my package from Lotharek today (U1MB, SIDE2, Stereo Pokey 2.0, and a really nice PS) and Sophia DVI and UAV already delivered last week. Originally my plan was to install everything into my fully-socketed 800XL, however I ran into an issue with Sophia - it won't fit with the chips above it in sockets. Myy other 800XL has the custom ICs and RAM socketed but nothing else, so I was able to see what all the fuss was about - wow, almost too good... Unfortunately that means that I have to get sockets in for ROM and MMU for U1MB. Two questions:

 

- If I lift the Sophia board with another GTIA socket, will it be too tall for the keyboard? It looks that way, but I don't have any correct sockets right now to test

- Any issues with mounting both Sophia and UAV in the same machine?

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On 6/13/2019 at 7:18 AM, polbit said:

That's the $1 question, what would I actually use it for ;) When I had the SuperCPU for Commodore 64, I used it very sporadically.

My line in the sand with upgrades to a computer has two fronts, but I thing minor compared to many people; it must be able to still operate as originally intended stock mode, and the vast majority of original main Atari IC's still on-board, even if it's a new board. Add on, but don't subtract. I see no difference in this with Atari machines as with machines that have had card-slot upgrade capabilities forever, including the Atari 800. Being closed architecture to me just means it's extremely difficult for the end-user, it's the realm of hardware hackers. I never heard of a PC running Windows ever being declared too far customized with new graphic, audio, and other cards, and suddenly not a "PC" anymore. Just because upgrades have to be hard-wired and/or installed in sockets on the motherboard makes no difference to me. The Atari is still in there too.

 

When it comes to Rapidus and VBXE upgrades, these machines are still true Atari's, they just got the equivalent of a new CPU/GPU board installed in an 800, like has already been done with Incognito and Super-Color CPU board, as well as legacy boards of all types for the 800's slots. But, currently, I only want one of them, and I'm in no hurry. The VBXE I'd like to like, but so little support more than a decade later, gives me little interest in it. I may end up installing it in one of my Atari's, just because my Atari hobby is also about repair/rebuild.upgrade. I enjoy working on Atari's with a multimeter and a soldering iron just as much as a keyboard and joystick. But there's not much to use on the VBXE and so I wouldn't use it much except as a glorified A/V upgrade. The Rapidus I am very keen to get, eventually, but only for the 3D games and simulators that where 1 or 2 frames per second on the Atari, like Flight Simulator, but all vector and fractal type games to speed them up to a silky-smooth frame rate. I wouldn't use it for much outside of that, except maybe as and HDD booster as mentioned, but just to play Mercenary, F15-Strike Eagle, Flight Simulator, Tomahawk and others, and even the Lucasfilm games is enough for me to want the Rapidus.

 

Whether I do an upgrade or modification or not depends solely on the support the upgrades get. I would never have bothered with the dual POKEY stereo upgrade if there were only a hand-full of songs and demos that take advantage, but it was generally and spectacularly accepted and supported by the development community. VBXE doesn't have but the hand-full of stuff. Rapidus has built-in compatibility to just make slow legacy programs a lot faster and more enjoyable. That's support enough for me right there.

Edited by Gunstar
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2 hours ago, polbit said:

- If I lift the Sophia board with another GTIA socket, will it be too tall for the keyboard? It looks that way, but I don't have any correct sockets right now to test

I had to do this in order to fit the SOPHIA into my 600XL, like you some of the other chips were blocking it.  It was tight under the keyboard but I managed to get everything back together fine.  

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1 hour ago, Gunstar said:

My line in the sand with upgrades to a computer has two fronts, but I thing minor compared to many people; it must be able to still operate as originally intended stock mode, and the vast majority of original main Atari IC's still on-board, even if it's a new board. Add on, but don't subtract. I see no difference in this with Atari machines as with machines that have had card-slot upgrade capabilities forever, including the Atari 800. Being closed architecture to me just means it's extremely difficult for the end-user, it's the realm of hardware hackers. I never heard of a PC running Windows ever being declared too far customized with new graphic, audio, and other cards, and suddenly not a "PC" anymore. Just because upgrades have to be hard-wired and/or installed in sockets on the motherboard makes no difference to me. The Atari is still in there too.

 

When it comes to Rapidus and VBXE upgrades, these machines are still true Atari's, they just got the equivalent of a new CPU/GPU board installed in an 800, like has already been done with Incognito and Super-Color CPU board, as well as legacy boards of all types for the 800's slots. But, currently, I only want one of them, and I'm in no hurry. The VBXE I'd like to like, but so little support more than a decade later, gives me little interest in it. I may end up installing it in one of my Atari's, just because my Atari hobby is also about repair/rebuild.upgrade. I enjoy working on Atari's with a multimeter and a soldering iron just as much as a keyboard and joystick. But there's not much to use on the VBXE and so I wouldn't use it much except as a glorified A/V upgrade. The Rapidus I am very keen to get, eventually, but only for the 3D games and simulators that where 1 or 2 frames per second on the Atari, like Flight Simulator, but all vector and fractal type games to speed them up to a silky-smooth frame rate. I wouldn't use it for much outside of that, except maybe as and HDD booster as mentioned, but just to play Mercenary, F15-Strike Eagle, Flight Simulator, Tomahawk and others, and even the Lucasfilm games is enough for me to want the Rapidus.

 

Whether I do an upgrade or modification or not depends solely on the support the upgrades get. I would never have bothered with the dual POKEY stereo upgrade if there were only a hand-full of songs and demos that take advantage, but it was generally and spectacularly accepted and supported by the development community. VBXE doesn't have but the hand-full of stuff. Rapidus has built-in compatibility to just make slow legacy programs a lot faster and more enjoyable. That's support enough for me right there.

 

I look at it a little differently - does it change the computer well beyond what's reasonable for that era. For example, I have a Tandy 1000TL/2, and I enjoy it for the Tandy graphics and sound - I would never put a VGA or Sound Blaster card in it. Same with the 800 - making it 2-3x faster than a base Atari ST/Amiga just doesn't feel right, although seeing Flight Simulator on it at fluid framerate would be interesting :)

 

I have a similar dilema with the Sophia DVI I just installed. I have it hooked up to a 17" Samsung LCD, and the screen is like an emulator perfect. It actually feels like an emulator when I'm using it. Not sure I like that as much as a solid chroma/luma into a 1084 monitor...

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3 hours ago, polbit said:

 

I look at it a little differently - does it change the computer well beyond what's reasonable for that era. 

This I can understand. Especially with the VBXE; yes, graphically it makes the 8-bit somewhere between an Amiga 1200 and a Falcon. But I find that fascinating. 

 

The Rapidus with it's 65816 is pretty much from that era, like if Atari had followed suit with Apple and the Atari XEGS wasn't a re-hash system, but a computer like the Apple IIGS. We just get it a few decades late...

 

For me LCD screens are a mixed bag. I didn't know what to expect from them with legacy systems before my 1084S-P's PSU board went belly-up, and I set it aside for a couple of years and have been using LCD. I like the lack of scan-lines, I like the clarity with my video upgrade, but that was great on the 1084S-P too. Eventually, of the three Atari's I intend to keep, one PAL Atari will have the 1084S-P CRT eventually and one will be upscaled to VGA CRT and one will be upscaled to HDMI LCD. So I'll have the best of both worlds. But I think I would prefer a good LCD over any CRT screens short of the 1084S-P, Sony Trinitron or upscaling to VGA CRT.

Edited by Gunstar
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scanlines actually improve game graphic definition, nothing replaces a CRT's no delay display. I suspect newer flat screens will catch up some day...

 

no issue as all with upgrades provided the core Atari is still in use and running, Atari used additive methods through out their line and planned on it in it's line... audio in on pbi or video/audio in on Jaguar, 5200, 7800, etc etc. So long as it overlaid on the core and the core had control it was all good.

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