Just got my SDrive Max...A thing of beauty..

[+mytek]

5 minutes ago, Fred_M said:

Well sorry Mytek and toddtmw  but I run an Atari business besides my dayjob too. I know how to deal with customers and I know how much time it costs  To be honest...... not so much

Back in the 90's when I was producing and selling the original TransKey, my experience was not so easy as you describe. Customer service for one really ate into my time, but that was probably more due to my poor documentation and/or some early design issues. Happy to hear your experience sounds much better ?.

 

[Mr Robot]

There's a lot of talk about licences starting to happen. I don't state a licence on my stuff because I wish it to be fully Public Domain, anyone can do anything they want with it, with my blessing. 

 

What I'd expect is a credit for my thing and a link to my website wherever you show off your thing, a sort of "Don't be a douche" licence. It saddens me that I even have to state that; that some people are so shitty you have to tell them to behave like a normal human.  It makes me reconsider the way I share.

 

For the last couple of days I've been pondering changing my stance and going CC-BY-NC-SA 

[Mr Robot]

12 hours ago, toddtmw said:

The cost of printing something is easy to figure out (barring electricity costs and wear and tear on the printer).

 

A 1 kg roll of Filament costs about $20.

 

That roll can print a KG worth of "anything".

 

My slicer says the XE case that was shared earlier will weigh about 40 grams. So, the $20 roll of filament would print about 25 cases, so they cost about 80 cents in materials to print.

Thanks for that Todd!

 

I priced this up today, everything is Aliexpress except the UNO2SIO which is OSHPark and the 3D prints. I'm sure I could make it even cheaper if I scaled up the quantities to start making them for sale. 

 

This is the cost of making an SDM yourself.

 

[Mr Robot]

11 hours ago, darwinmac said:

I completely agree. It’s capitalism at work. I only replied because there appeared to be some thought that the pricing from one vendor was out of line. 

 

It's capitalism, but it's not very community spirited. I think that's what most people who have a problem are having a problem with. In a community this small, it seems greedy to try and profit off the people you share the community with. A few dollarpounds here or there is ok to cover your effort but selling a device that costs $25 + labour, for $100 takes you out of enjoying your hobby in the community and puts you squarely into the selling a product for a profit. When the product is developed by the community you are selling it to, it doesn't sit well with many folks. 

[+DrVenkman]

5 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

Thanks for that Todd!

 

I priced this up today, everything is Aliexpress except the UNO2SIO which is OSHPark and the 3D prints. I'm sure I could make it even cheaper if I scaled up the quantities to start making them for sale. 

 

This is the cost of making an SDM yourself.

 

Again, the key points are missing though:  WHAT IS YOUR TIME WORTH? Are you running a business trying to make it self-sufficient? Do you have overhead? What is your opportunity cost if your printer is busy churning out cases an hour or four per case, when you *could* be printing SIO cables? A customer goes to your page and wants to buy 5 of those but you have none available so they go to a competitor instead? You’ve lost that sale, brother.

 

So do you spend a bunch of time and money to scale up production, put in a real inventory system including a POS web presence to handle orders and stuff? How do you handle packaging, shipping and package pickup and drop off?

 

“Price” does not and cannot equal “cost” for a retail business. For a hobbyist farting around in his garage, it’s fine. For a reliable supplier to the community, it cannot.

 

 

There are a lot of very smart people in this community but the refusal to understand the basics of retail economics is kind of depressing. Clearly you all have never tried to run a business. 

 

[toddtmw]

When I worked in retail, we consistenly wanted a 40% markup. The owner of the store had special calculator, because Markup is not the same as margin.

 

From https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/102714/whats-difference-between-profit-margin-and-markup.asp:

Quote

The difference between profit margin and markup is that profit margin is sales minus the cost of goods sold; meanwhile, markup is the amount by which the cost is increased on a product to arrive at the selling price.

40% markup for a brick and mortar store. (Admittedly. this was in the late 80's but still....)

 

A $24.03 cost and a $99 revenue yields a markup of 311.985%

 

Nice gig if you can get it...

 

Now, a 40% markup of $24.03 is $33.64 or a $9 profit.

 

I cannot speak for everyone here, but I would not be willing to make one of these for $9.

 

We're back to capitalism. If someone here thinks $99 is too high, start making and selling them for less.

[+mytek]

13 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

There's a lot of talk about licences starting to happen. I don't state a licence on my stuff because I wish it to be fully Public Domain, anyone can do anything they want with it, with my blessing. 

 

What I'd expect is a credit for my thing and a link to my website wherever you show off your thing, a sort of "Don't be a douche" licence. It saddens me that I even have to state that; that some people are so shitty you have to tell them to behave like a normal human.  It makes me reconsider the way I share.

 

For the last couple of days I've been pondering changing my stance and going CC-BY-NC-SA 

Most of my stuff I have released under Creative Commons, but in reality I could care less if someone gives me credit. What really tickles me in a good way, is when I stumble across something like this on a Polish forum...

 

 

Half way around the world from me, someone ran off a bunch of boards based on my design. I don't know how to describe the feeling of joy it brings me when I see someone make this kind of commitment because they believe in what I've created having enough value. If they can make a profit off of doing so, more power to them.

 

[toddtmw]

But, man, the SDM REALLy IS a thing of beauty!

[Mr Robot]

2 hours ago, DrVenkman said:

Mr Robot’s board (which while convenient, doesn’t “fit” the header pins on all UNO boards equally)

It does now. VCC is selling V3 which was slightly out because I didn't have the most popular UNO board to measure against. I did ask but no one would send me one to prototype against. V4 should be a perfect fit.

[Fred_M]

13 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

It's capitalism, but it's not very community spirited. I think that's what most people who have a problem are having a problem with. In a community this small, it seems greedy to try and profit off the people you share the community with. A few dollarpounds here or there is ok to cover your effort but selling a device that costs $25 + labour, for $100 takes you out of enjoying your hobby in the community and puts you squarely into the selling a product for a profit. When the product is developed by the community you are selling it to, it doesn't sit well with many folks. 

 

I totally agree ?

 

[Fred_M]

24 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

There are a lot of very smart people in this community but the refusal to understand the basics of retail economics is kind of depressing. Clearly you all have never tried to run a business. 

 

 

I think this is quite offending. Why are you making this personal? I have run several succesful businesses, you don't know me at all. I expect here is a cultural difference between Americans and Europeans? But to state again: The seller I am talking about does NOT own a legal company, take a look at his website. There are no names, addresses, registration numbers and so on stated on the website!

 

We just have a different opinion here, why should that depress you???

Edited July 7, 2019 by Fred_M

[+DrVenkman]

1 minute ago, Fred_M said:

 

I think this is quite offending. I have run several succesful businesses, you don't know me at all. I expect here is a cultural difference between Americans and Europeans? But to state again: The seller I am talking about does NOT own a legal company, take a look at his website. There are no names, addresses, registration numbers and so on stated on the website!

I’m offended at your limited understanding of business economics.  

 

Also, you have zero understanding of what constitutes a “legal company” (also known as a “business entity”) - that can and does vary from country to country, let alone one U.S. state to another. Economic conditions - taxes, overhead and cost of living - vary GREATLY across the United States, let alone the world.

 

Your continued refusal to accept that, combined with your failure to even address my prior points regarding your claimed 5 minute time to assemble an SDrive-MAX, makes it clear it’s not worth discussing this further. 

[+mytek]

Unfortunately i think this is yet another topic that's starting to go sideways.

 

The SDM's creators have done a great thing for the community, and as a fellow developer i applaud your efforts. And it's great to see others pick up the design and add their own finishing touches, such as what has been going into the cases. Which BTW are fantastic in themselves. But the whole issue of how much profit one is perceived and/or allowed to make, or that everyone needs to release their improvements also for free, is not up to any of us to dictate . If you don't like it, then don't buy it, simple as that. But I really don't see how complaining is going to end up with a productive result in this aspect. If anything speaking with or without your wallet will likely have the greatest effect.

 

[Fred_M]

2 minutes ago, mytek said:

Unfortunately i think this is yet another topic that's starting to go sideways.

 

 

I agree. I am out  I will not tolerate someone who is claiming to know my level of business knowledge.

[Mr Robot]

33 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

Again, the key points are missing though:  WHAT IS YOUR TIME WORTH? Are you running a business trying to make it self-sufficient? Do you have overhead? What is your opportunity cost if your printer is busy churning out cases an hour or four per case, when you *could* be printing SIO cables? A customer goes to your page and wants to buy 5 of those but you have none available so they go to a competitor instead? You’ve lost that sale, brother.

 

So do you spend a bunch of time and money to scale up production, put in a real inventory system including a POS web presence to handle orders and stuff? How do you handle packaging, shipping and package pickup and drop off?

 

“Price” does not and cannot equal “cost” for a retail business. For a hobbyist farting around in his garage, it’s fine. For a reliable supplier to the community, it cannot.

 

 

There are a lot of very smart people in this community but the refusal to understand the basics of retail economics is kind of depressing. Clearly you all have never tried to run a business. 

 

I can make an SDM (once the 3d printer is finished) in about 30 minutes including all the crimping (my least favourite part), and software. If I were to make 100 of these at a time I'd do it like a production line, each step 100 times before the next step, and I could get that 30 minutes down to probably 20-25 minutes each so I could make 2-3 of these an hour. If I make one of these for $25 and charge $100 I'm paying myself $75 per unit 

 

I wish my time was worth $150-$225 per hour! 

 

All the other stuff you talk about (scaling up, inventory systems etc.) are non-cost items on a business making 100 SDM's (maybe if you sold thousands) and a secure web presence that can handle credit card processing through paypal or google is simple to set up (a couple of hours for a simple woocommerce site) the domain reg costs and site hosting is ~$100 a year, you don't need any of that if you sell on eBay like 8-bit tronics. Packaging an SDM is a jiffy bag, and a printed postage paid label (doable online at USPS.com) in a one stop pay print, apply, stick in in the pile operation. Once a day, drive to the post office (after you are big enough they will come to you).

 

And the key point you are missing here is that this is for a business. Garath at VCC has claimed repeatedly (in public and in PM) that he does all of this to support the community, he is purely doing it to fund his retro hobby because he enjoys it and he likes to help people.

 

Marlin at TBA is running a business, I have no problem with that, he makes no bones about it, it's his living and his hobby. He sells and makes many products, he provides a service for a profit and that's fine. He's producing stuff many hobbyists couldn't make at home (like the Ultimate cart), he has to manage inventory (especially for the parts to make an XEL/XLD) he keeps European parts in stock for fast delivery to customers in the USA, he has to buy stock for that. All of this makes it OK that he's running a business, he's not just making a simple device and charging a 300% markup. 

 

 

[Mr Robot]

59 minutes ago, mytek said:

Most of my stuff I have released under Creative Commons, but in reality I could care less if someone gives me credit. What really tickles me in a good way, is when I stumble across something like this on a Polish forum...

 

 

Half way around the world from me, someone ran off a bunch of boards based on my design. I don't know how to describe the feeling of joy it brings me when I see someone make this kind of commitment because they believe in what I've created having enough value. If they can make a profit off of doing so, more power to them.

 

I wish I didn't have to stumble across it. I give it away for free, I'd like a little recognition and some kudos. Call me fame hungry or something!

[+mytek]

29 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

I wish I didn't have to stumble across it. I give it away for free, I'd like a little recognition and some kudos. Call me fame hungry or something!

It's always nice to get recognition for your hard work and creativity, especially when what you've created has been freely given to the community. This is the least someone should do that is selling it.

 

Oh believe me, if I was in the Atari upgrade business, and trying to do this as my main job I wouldn't be doing it for a few $$$ over my cost. Business is not the same as doing a personal favor to a friend or family member. In fact sometimes that can get to be a bit too much when they always expect you to do it for free, under the guise of friendship or family. This also reminds me of someone a few years back that although an AA member, I didn't know jack shit about, having never previously talked to them, asking me to send them one of the boards I developed. No where in that request did I hear the magic words "please" or "how much $$$ should I send you". Of course I instantly resented the implication that since they were in the same club so to speak that i should feel obligated to do something for them.

 

[Mr Robot]

8 minutes ago, mytek said:

Oh believe me, if I was in the Atari upgrade business, and trying to do this as my main job I wouldn't be doing it for a few $$$ over my cost. Business is not the same as doing a personal favor to a friend or family member. In fact sometimes that can get to be a bit too much when they expect you to do it for free, under the guise of friendship or family. This also reminds me of someone a few years back that although an AA member, I didn't know jack shit about, having never previously talked to them, asking me to send them one of the boards I developed. No where in that request did I hear the magic words "please" or "how much $$$ should I send you". Of course I instantly resented the implication that since they were in the same club so to speak that i should feel obligated to do something for them for free.

 

Fixing tech for cups of tea or a sixpack gets old quick! 

 

I've had AA members ask me to send them left over prototype pcbs, I've had people on twitter asking for high res versions of my work, obviously so it is high enough to reproduce. I've had stuff I have tried to sell ripped off repeatedly. There is always someone looking to make a profit off of someone else's hard work. You get used to it, it's sad that you have to. 

 

Reading https://twitter.com/forexposure_txt is an eye opener

[chuckcaley]

Here's something im working on to fit my board better.

[+Stephen]

One thing to remember guys.  Just because I can say, for example, do a quick weld repair that takes me literally 5 minutes from start to finish including machine setup, does NOT mean I owe anyone a 5 minute bill.  My machine cost several thousand dollars, and you are paying me for my experience as well.

[Mclaneinc]

Indeed, that's how it works in the real world and certainly a thought re that should still apply in community circles....The use of mates rates should be fine but not to the point that its unrewarded..

[_The Doctor__]

I try not to take things out of context like a fundamentalist on either side of the issues involved, that means reading the whole of a post without taking each line as if it stands on it's own and doing the whole quote a line and beat the stuffing out of it without tempering it with the rest of the information to make a point.

 

I'll be voting with my dollars and will help people with all this in mind. I will be directing people the low cost fellow not in the USA doing it.

I understand there are all walks of life and I as well as others make things for those individuals without the means- at cost.

I direct folks who just don't want to make it or can't make it to the fellow doing right by us with the case and reasonable price.

Let's send the limo-taste caviar lifestyle people telling me how (and everyone else) to live and give of themselves according to the their view to the very same kind of folks they appear to be and are normally the people who charge through the nose... seems when it comes to money those folks producing a product really forget all that hub bub and extract every dollar they can... so it's a win win! I like the part when they all start carrying on about all that kind of stuff... but I see what they do in life. Then a bit of bluster from the purchaser who feels they could have done better a little down the road sometimes and the seller who basically raped them still goes on about the less fortunate souls and the cost of things.. ironic.

 

If you take the ridiculous stance a republic is a democracy, or that all capitalists are extreme capitalists without a sense of what fair trade is... you just might be mistaken      I find the dichotomy of how these supposed caring and social whatever types conduct business amazing.

 

With all of that being said, if something requires a skill or knack above the curve, if a person provides impeccable customer support, if they are spreading cost across a line selling some things nearer to cost while raising the price on others things to make the entire line affordable, well that is business and it works for people big and small. There are costs associated with legit business a hobbyist does not have to pay. There is endless red tape(paperwork), logistics, taxes, licenses, sometimes insurance or the costs involved with being bonded and on and on... the crazy stuff of endless regulation bureaucrats etc. These are hidden costs. Think on that a bit. Plenty of extremes to be had all around.

 

Let's have fun and ask that folks that can donate to the devices creators. Or even ask a portion from business folks be passed on the hobbyist that did it!

Edited July 7, 2019 by _The Doctor__

[+mytek]

When you are trying to conduct a real business, you have the freedom to charge whatever you want for your product or services. If that price is seen as too high by your typical customer, then they also have the right not to buy it. Not buying is the best feedback you can ever give that will probably actually make a difference in the price that's charged. If enough people did this, then the price would likely come down as a direct result.

 

This philosophy very much applies to stuff sold on AA same as anywhere else. The whole idea that you should or are expected to discount to AA members or any other group is BS in my book. This gets back to how much is your time worth in the real world. Because from what I've heard, it seems like in some cases people aren't even making minimum wage for their time (assuming you can believe their estimates), and that this also seems to be the expectation if you are wishing to sell stuff in this arena. Total lunacy if you ask me.

 

Now if you truly wish to do this out of the kindness of your heart, well I say good for you. But please do so because you want to, not because others are saying you should or have to.

 

BTW, think back to the last time you had your oil changed which is soooo much more technical then building something electronic (Oil Stop, et all). I'm sure they didn't give away their services for pennies. Need I say more?

 

[_The Doctor__]

lol, paying for an oil change? I'll be changing the oil with the drip going in one arm as my last breathe expires :)

Yep, your money is your way to make your thoughts truly known.

 

In any event what is this topic about?

 

Oh yeah... the SDRIVE MAX is a thing of beauty....     Yes I agree! I concur wholeheartedly!

 

[SS]

Could I just add that I have conducted business with a number of people involved in this thread (either contributing posters and/or the other individuals being talked about).  I do not feel that I have been monetarily taken advantage of by any of them and have gotten fantastic products and customer service from all of them.  I am thankful for the community service and community minded attitude that all have provided.