emkay Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 (edited) Imagine a game that does 3D movement in character mode resolution. Then you stop and the appearing PMg allow the details, let's imagine a cannon where you have to find the degree for hitting the enemy ship, which is also drawn by PMg. The Background is still changing a little (full Screen), while the gameplay is going. Let's assume something like "voxel space" . Making the "3D scene" shaking after the bomb hits the enemy.... whatever. The Atari is fast enough to handle two independent screens "overlaid" , but it can't if you put all CPU in some small PM shaping on a full DMA Cycle stealing mode. Edited July 1, 2019 by emkay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 Now we are again on PM overlays/details? as I said you jump around on topics and details are not relevant for you and so above the line and then again so vague that you never get somebody to follow... good or bad coder doesn’t matter I am afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 In the end you want PM overlays over 3d since your first debates 15 years ago when you first discussed that “Gtia is our blitter”... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 Actually, Sheddy's Space Harrier does 3 if not 4 "programs" at the same time. 1) The 3D projection 2) The DLI handling (animation) 3) The Protagonist movement 4) The digital speech All with just the small 1.79MHz 6502. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, Heaven/TQA said: Now we are again on PM overlays/details? I never dropped that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 2 minutes ago, Heaven/TQA said: In the end you want PM overlays over 3d since your first debates 15 years ago when you first discussed that “Gtia is our blitter”... Where did I write that? I wrote that ANTIC has that line "Blitter" , as is fills the second scanline from it's own memory, while the CPU isn't stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 2 minutes ago, emkay said: Actually, Sheddy's Space Harrier does 3 if not 4 "programs" at the same time. 1) The 3D projection 2) The DLI handling (animation) 3) The Protagonist movement 4) The digital speech All with just the small 1.79MHz 6502. True but be careful with the word 3d projection as space harrier is a 2d game and there is no 3d-2d projection in terms of 3d engine envolved. all movements and patterns and zoom levels are precalculated. I am nearly 100% sure there is not 1 byte of code doing what coders call “3d projection”. there is a simple movemt table playing the animation. What you call 3d is what I call a big fake as I mentioned already. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 2 minutes ago, emkay said: Where did I write that? I wrote that ANTIC has that line "Blitter" , as is fills the second scanline from it's own memory, while the CPU isn't stopped. Since 2600 TIA there is a “blitter” repeating data over screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 Just now, Heaven/TQA said: True but be careful with the word 3d projection as space harrier is a 2d game and there is no 3d-2d projection in terms of 3d engine envolved. all movements and patterns and zoom levels are precalculated. I am nearly 100% sure there is not 1 byte of code doing what coders call “3d projection”. there is a simple movemt table playing the animation. What you call 3d is what I call a big fake as I mentioned already. Not this again... This is just nitpicking. The gameplay works on 3 axis . What exactly defines 3D ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 1 minute ago, Heaven/TQA said: Since 2600 TIA there is a “blitter” repeating data over screen. And it is used very well in a lot productions there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 6 minutes ago, emkay said: Actually, Sheddy's Space Harrier does 3 if not 4 "programs" at the same time. 1) The 3D projection 2) The DLI handling (animation) 3) The Protagonist movement 4) The digital speech All with just the small 1.79MHz 6502. Now it gets esoteric.... now every subroutine is called “program”? every IRQ/NMI a program itself? nonsense... so RoF has physics, 3d calculations, sound, enemies, bunkers, ... and all on a small CPU? Man... let’s run linux on it... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 2 minutes ago, emkay said: Not this again... This is just nitpicking. The gameplay works on 3 axis . What exactly defines 3D ? It’s not nitpicking grab any 3d maths book, Wikipedia whatever you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, emkay said: Not this again... This is just nitpicking. The gameplay works on 3 axis . What exactly defines 3D ? And as I wrote 10 years ago... in your terms Qbert and Crystal Castle is 3d, in many others coders and academic world it is not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 Just now, Heaven/TQA said: Now it gets esoteric.... now every subroutine is called “program”? every IRQ/NMI a program itself? nonsense... so RoF has physics, 3d calculations, sound, enemies, bunkers, ... and all on a small CPU? Man... let’s run linux on it... You get esoteric Not to say that separated programs on such a small computer need IRQ handling. And, please don't mix up things again. I know, you don't understand the difference between a program that handles things, and a program that handles different things. That's why your Demos suffer in transitions. They simply have none Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 4 minutes ago, Heaven/TQA said: It’s not nitpicking grab any 3d maths book, Wikipedia whatever you like. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-dimensional_space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R0ger Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 I'd say Qbert isn't 3d, but Crystal Castle is. The collision are clearly computed based on true 3D coordinates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 2 minutes ago, emkay said: You get esoteric Not to say that separated programs on such a small computer need IRQ handling. And, please don't mix up things again. I know, you don't understand the difference between a program that handles things, and a program that handles different things. That's why your Demos suffer in transitions. They simply have none How many transitions did you ever coded? 0? I am sure I coded more than you ever will... and i don’t need to justify. I have not many what you call transitions because I simply did not code and don’t like to code those? Nothing more no “lack of knowledge etc”. Simply my personal decision. VBXE demos of mine have transitions, VIC20 Gnork has, Elements on Lynx have etc. again? Show me how many you have done? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 4 minutes ago, R0ger said: I'd say Qbert isn't 3d, but Crystal Castle is. The collision are clearly computed based on true 3D coordinates. If so... then we might start to call that 3d... but I am sure that’s not what Master thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 9 minutes ago, emkay said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-dimensional_space https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_computer_graphics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 2 minutes ago, Heaven/TQA said: If so... then we might start to call that 3d... but I am sure that’s not what Master thinks. Q-Bert is just an Iso 3D Projection. The handling is 2D. The gameplay is 2D , so you could name it 2.5D (if such really exists ) . Crystal Castle checks 3 dimensions for the gameplay. So it is isometric 3D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, Heaven/TQA said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_computer_graphics A quote from your link... 3D computer graphics or three-dimensional computer graphics (in contrast to 2D computer graphics), are graphics that use a three-dimensional representation of geometric data (often Cartesian) that is stored in the computer for the purposes of performing calculations and rendering 2D images. Such images may be stored for viewing later or displayed in real-time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 What's the hard part to see the point? 3D is 3 Dimensions. Games that handle 3D by value for the Gameplay , ARE 3D. How to reach that, is on an other paper. You can reach that with just an interactive Movie You can reach that by pre stored Data You can reach that by calculation of the Content. You can also mix them for a perfect impression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 8 hours ago, emkay said: What's the hard part to see the point? 3D is 3 Dimensions. Games that handle 3D by value for the Gameplay , ARE 3D. How to reach that, is on an other paper. You can reach that with just an interactive Movie You can reach that by pre stored Data You can reach that by calculation of the Content. You can also mix them for a perfect impression. And to discuss it with coders that’s too vague as you lack experience in implementing such tech. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Call me old fashioned but I'd rather listen to a proven coder than someone who tells people how to code.. Of course, I don't code but then again I don't tell people how to do it.. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 This has gone on for 7 pages now? WOW! While Play testers tell coders what's wrong all the time, sometimes they even have a clue about the code involved or have suggestions. That's not exactly the entire case here. I haven't seen emkay share how to make such code, suggest to re-organize the code/re-order individual sections, or show any code to do whatever it is being conversed about. Maybe some example to prove the point so to speak, It's kind of a tough round a bout. Understanding how costly certain modes can be and choosing the lightest ones going into a project that looks like it will need every available cycle isn't such a bad idea, except those modes sometimes leave a lot to be desired in practical use for the given goal. I always hope the heart is in the right place, but telling the coders they suck in so many words does not help one bit. Trying my best to balance both sides here. I've probably failed miserably. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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