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brenski

ATR images 65k

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I was copying some ATR images to send to Nir earlier and came across a whole bunch of 65k files (one attached)

 

Problem is, the "write ATR to real disk" option in APE/Prosystem (obviously) doesn't recognise these

■ attempts to format - first pass completes, second pass stalls "Drive 1 aborted. [drive failed format]

Prosystem is reading the 65k ATR as 40 TPS / 18 SPT / 128 BPS

 

Alpha-Load Menu Maker A.atr

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I havent used prosystem, but ive used regualr SIO2PC with a sector copier on the Atari, and it will just error reading sectors past 65K, but you can still write the rest to the destination floppy, which will format to the normal size. With a copier like MycopyR it will automatically skip through all the 'unreadable' sectors.

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Posted (edited)

am starting to think this is completely unrelated.

 

both my 1050s - IS Plate and Irata Verlag are refusing to play ball - even with 90k/130k disks.

 

i did a mega imaging session for someone about three days ago - 48 disks.

now the IS Plate won't format anything - even from Dos 2.5

and the Irata powers on, but no disk activity. if i take the board out and re-seat it, it spins up, but the process of turning it over to screw the case back must unseat something - as it reverts to no spinning up

 

am thinking the formatting issues may be heads out of alignment or the head is clogged with sh*t off the 48 disks?

 

guess what I'll be doing Sunday?

Edited by brenski
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Alignment wont affect formatting success, just the ability for other drives to read the disks.

 

Powering up with no activity indicates something else out of whack, maybe bad connection, flakey ROM or RAM in the upgrade board, etc.

 

I would definitely check if the head is dirty. If I'm doing an imaging session ill usually have the top of the drive open so I can re-clean the head after every few disks...

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Posted (edited)

Prosystem is correct with sectors and tracks, but data beyond 64k is missing, so you get errors. SIO2PC has this option to create 64k ATR images, think it was done to "emulate" a 64k ramdisk on the PC, when the A8 does not have one. Other than that, these 64k ATR images are stupid and use a non-standard size (even back then in the 90s it would not have made sense to save approx. 26k versus a full 90k ATR image), therefore most sector copy programs will report an error when they encounter the missing data part.

 

So, simply use a sector copy that can copy such non-standard images by ignoring all errors and writing empty sectors instead, like e.g. Mycopyr! 1.c and 2.0, Diskcopy from TurboDOS XL/XE and some others and then copy these images onto a standard 90k disk or ATR image. Besides, old versions of SIO2PC also had a bug and always created medium/enhanced/1050/dual density with 140kbytes instead of the correct 130kbytes. Here and there you can find some images with such a(nother) non-standard length and most sector copy programs will think this is a 90k disk, which is not true. Simply use Mycopyr! 1.c and manually set the option "Enhanced Density" to on, it will then test if sector 1040 is available and if it is, it will write out a standard 130k disk or disk image...

 

Mycopyr! 1.c

 

Funny that you stumbled over this yet, since I have just released an article in the current Abbuc Magazine about non-standard ATR images and how to copy them back (on)to standard diskettes or ATR images with several sector copy programs on the A8... (of course there also exist several PC programs which can do this).

 

Attached you will find the (d)english Word (*.DOC) version of the text, originally written for PAM more than a year ago and never released, while the Abbuc version was translated back into german language a few weeks ago and released two or three days ago...

 

 

ATR_Images_Repair_Backup_incl_Pics.doc

Edited by CharlieChaplin
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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, CharlieChaplin said:

old versions of SIO2PC also had a bug and always created medium/enhanced/1050/dual density with 140kbytes instead of the correct 130kbytes.

Is this "SIO2PC" you are referring too a software program? Or are you talking about the hardware device 'SIO2PC?' I either don't recall or never heard of software named SIO2PC. ???

 

unrelated: @Albert Is there a way to get the old yellow Emoji's? These new ones in the post editor SUCK, SUCK and SUCK! 😠 There isn't even one that looks confused...

Edited by Gunstar

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Posted (edited)

Yes, the SIO2PC I am talking about is SIO2PC.exe by Nick Kennedy, which is software for old PC's running under DOS... the version I am using since approx. 20+ years is SIO2PC V4.21 with MS-DOS 6.22... 🙂  And some guys always tell me, that my Win XP is too old... I can give them Win3.11 and MS-DOS as an alternative... but I am unsure if my 16Bit Netscape (running under Win 3.x) would still be able to browse the internet today...  ;-)

 

 

 

Edited by CharlieChaplin
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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Nezgar said:

Powering up with no activity indicates something else out of whack, maybe bad connection, flakey ROM or RAM in the upgrade board, etc.

 

I would definitely check if the head is dirty. If I'm doing an imaging session ill usually have the top of the drive open so I can re-clean the head after every few disks...

Hi Ryan

■ all main ICs swapped in and out - no real change

■ reverted to stock - no real change

■ new Irata Verlag eprom burned and installed - no real change

 

"no real change" = 

■ remove lid, re-seat everything (incl jumpers) - powers up fine and boots fine

■ gently turn over to re-screw lid - power LEd but refuses to spin up - no activity at all

 

this happens in every instance

 

 

 

Edited by brenski

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2 hours ago, brenski said:

Hi Ryan

■ all main ICs swapped in and out - no real change

■ reverted to stock - no real change

■ new Irata Verlag eprom burned and installed - no real change

 

"no real change" = 

■ remove lid, re-seat everything (incl jumpers) - powers up fine and boots fine

■ gently turn over to re-screw lid - power LEd but refuses to spin up - no activity at all

 

this happens in every instance

Sounds like you’ve got something affected by board-flex. Bad socket(s) maybe? Some socket wipes with marginal spring-tension in one or more wipes can lose contact when you shift stuff around. Might also be a similarly-bad connection in one or more of the electrical and data connectors between the drive mech and the board.

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Hi,

 

     Any bare wires on the connector leads between board and mech? Is this specific to the board, or mech (assuming you can swap parts between drives)?

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definitely something to do with the board.

swapped board to known good mech and known good ICs - same symptoms.

 

board going to be dumped. will scour ebay for a replacement.

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How religious are you when it comes to obtaining very slow, very good eproms for OS rom work?

 

I've found you can't be religious enough and they almost have to be still wet from the blessings of holy water.

 

All too often static shocked devices are for sale on eBay and they may appear to be burnt good and proper but are too fast to be used for an OS rom which prefers a very slow range of 200ns to 450ns in the worst of cases. In my experience.

 

I mention it because it sure sounds like this might be the real problem and nothing else.

And of course and as per usual, if you've taken care of this aspect, then simply ignore me.

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On 7/14/2019 at 5:14 AM, DrVenkman said:

reverted to stock - no real change

Well, if the issue persists even after reverting the drive to stock, something else is amiss.. But first think id look at replacing is the sockets for the ROM, CPU, and 6810 RAM. The original single wipe sockets are easily damaged or "squashed" by insertion/removal of upgrade boards with large pins that result in bad contact with chip pins afterwards. Replacing with machine sockets (aka round/turned) will rule out the intermittent connectivity possibility.

 

A quick test in the stock configuration is to place those 3 chips in machine sockets and then place those into the original sockets and see if it works any better.

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3 hours ago, 1050 said:

How religious are you when it comes to obtaining very slow, very good eproms for OS rom work?

 

All too often static shocked devices are for sale on eBay and they may appear to be burnt good and proper but are too fast to be used for an OS rom which prefers a very slow range of 200ns to 450ns in the worst of cases. In my experience.

I mention it because it sure sounds like this might be the real problem and nothing else.

 

it's sound advice. however, i've gone as far as re-burning new OS roms and this made no difference at all. even going as far as trying two different happy roms and a copy of the Irata Verlag rom - same fault/symptoms

2 hours ago, Nezgar said:

 

A quick test in the stock configuration is to place those 3 chips in machine sockets and then place those into the original sockets and see if it works any better.

thanks Ryan. yep, I have some precision sockets here and I have tried using these to achieve better contact..before hand i blew compressed air thru everything to remove any microbes of dust or disk debris that "may" have been lingering.

 

again, no luck. powers on, spins up. insert screws to re-assemble case and power LED works, but no activity. 

btw - i've even tried keeping the drive the right way up (just in case) and re-inserted the screws from below, making no iota of difference (which means it's not likely the flipping of the case to re-insert screws that's causing the fault).

 

best guess? something. somewhere is shorting out once the case is re-assembled - but (for the life of me) i can't see what it could be...certainly shoudln't be board underside as it's already in situ in the bottom half of the case before the case is re-assembled. But perhaps the "tightening of screws" is having a negative affect?

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1 hour ago, brenski said:

best guess? something. somewhere is shorting out once the case is re-assembled - but (for the life of me) i can't see what it could be...certainly shoudln't be board underside as it's already in situ in the bottom half of the case before the case is re-assembled. But perhaps the "tightening of screws" is having a negative affect?

Check for intermittent contacts, bad solder joints or broken traces - especially at the large, heavy components like the huge caps. A magnifying glass and wiggling the components may help identifying such issues.

 

I had a quite similar issue with one of my 1050ies here last year, and the culprit was a broken trace to one of the large caps just before the solder pad. Suspecting bad solder joints I had already resoldered the caps before, but it didn't help. And even with a magnifying glass and wiggling it was almost impossible to see that the cap had no contact - multimeter verified that though. That board almost drove me nuts, but finally I succeeded and the 1050 was alive again.

 

so long,

 

Hias

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Posted (edited)

If the big diodes (in the back, near the caps) look as if they have overheated, replace them. I have seen this quite a few times.

 

Edit: Make sure to use long legs to elevate them from the board for COOLING.

 

Edited by Kyle22
clarity

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yep, the legs sink some of the heat, the diodes can be slightly splayed away from each other allows for better air flow and less adjacent warming... works great.

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starting to feel like Groundhog Day

 

this is happening with BOTH of my IS Plate 1050s.

 

BOTH were working fine til tonight. Now - if I power them up as D1:

Drive WILL spin up, and inserting a disk results in initial drive movement - as expected, then on powering up the XL

■ without Option Key - fart noise and READY

■ with Option Key - fart noise and SELF TEST

 

If i revert BOTH 1050s to stock then BOTH 1050s boot without issue

 

 

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both were on separate PSUs and data cables.

am wondering if (at some point) some random mains spike has damaged both?

 

strange that BOTh drives work perfectly well once reverted back to "stock"

wondering if the IS Plate boards have been fried?

 

and way to tell?

 

 

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I'd start by the usual clean and reseat, making sure the sockets are all good and everything is aligned.

From a cold start of all devices run the all the IS Plate software and diagnostics you can get your hands on.

If there are any signs of life you can start from there.

Hopefully you dumps all the roms etc and have backups from which you may program new ones if perhaps a transient scrambled their bits... or even bit rot set in on bothe, hopefully no light got to them etc.

from there it's just as well to check power and relateg components on the power rail(s) if you really do suspect a spike nailed something. after that it's check the chips time, you know the drill. Otherwise you can do the swap the chips deal we've all come to know and love.

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You mentioned doing a real big session of doing disks, there one thing I've seen once, maybe twice over the years and its trace breaks from over heating where the very old board has heated expanded and contracted so many times over the years around the area's that get really hot that a trace just spreads open by such a small margin that only a look with a good magnifying glass or USB microscope (can't recommend a cheap one of those enough) would spot it, well that or a continuity tester along the traces.. Its extremely rare and to happen to 2 drives at the same time would be incredibly unusual. 

 

Not really a lot of help and I hope the drives / boards get sorted as drives are not super cheap and ISP Plates must be quite rare?

 

As people know my electronics isn't great but I can fault find basic stuff and you can't really run an Electronics shop and know zero :)  (well you can but it won't be good :)  )

 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/16/2019 at 11:02 PM, brenski said:

starting to feel like Groundhog Day

 

this is happening with BOTH of my IS Plate 1050s.

 

BOTH were working fine til tonight. Now - if I power them up as D1:

Drive WILL spin up, and inserting a disk results in initial drive movement - as expected, then on powering up the XL

■ without Option Key - fart noise and READY

■ with Option Key - fart noise and SELF TEST

 

If i revert BOTH 1050s to stock then BOTH 1050s boot without issue

 

 

1 hour ago, Mclaneinc said:

You mentioned doing a real big session of doing disks, there one thing I've seen once, maybe twice over the years and its trace breaks from over heating where the very old board has heated expanded and contracted so many times over the years around the area's that get really hot that a trace just spreads open by such a small margin that only a look with a good magnifying glass or USB microscope (can't recommend a cheap one of those enough) would spot it, well that or a continuity tester along the traces.. Its extremely rare and to happen to 2 drives at the same time would be incredibly unusual. 

 

Not really a lot of help and I hope the drives / boards get sorted as drives are not super cheap and ISP Plates must be quite rare?

 

As people know my electronics isn't great but I can fault find basic stuff and you can't really run an Electronics shop and know zero :)  (well you can but it won't be good :)  )

 

but that doesn't follow. if tracks are damaged through overheating then the drives would not work when reverted to stock.

 

I've had a chat with @flashjazzcat externally of here - as I've a feeling the Wire Wrap pins on the IS Plates have wrought sh*t on the board sockets.  Strange though, that the socket contacts are still fine with the original ICs - and "stock" works hunky dory?

Edited by brenski

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Posted (edited)

wire wraps normally are fine unless someone disturbs the wires. generally the wraps have enough turns that is doesn't become an issue, but when futzing about and wires keep getting moved it's possible to loosen one... generally it won't be happening to two separate devices at once... but when you get a big pile of stuff and put your fingers in it... not knowing what to touch or not touch, these things happen. I can only hope nothing else gets ruined.

Edited by _The Doctor__

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Brenski is talking about wire-wrap pins, by which he means square header pins which are shoved into machine sockets. The broad pins bend the ramps back on the socket contacts, or may break them entirely if the pins are inserted and removed a lot. As a result, an IC subsequently inserted into the socket can be a bit slack and not necessarily make great contact.

 

Lots of A8 daughter boards (stereo POKEY, etc) used to ship with these nasty square pins, which brutalise machine sockets and outright won't fit into precision sockets. Round (machined) pins are preferable, since they fit in either socket type and don't wreck machine sockets.

 

In this case, it does not appear that socket damage is to blame since the original ICs still work in said sockets. However, I don't know if there are any redundant pins which might matter with the upgrade and not with the original IC; it would be bad luck if one socket pin was broken, and it mattered with the IS Plate. Damage to the square pins themselves is highly unlikely, of course (they are quite robust).

 

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