Jump to content
nolram

IBMs 50th aniversary moon exhibit has our 2600!!

Recommended Posts

Because of their nature and technological limitations "things space" are slow going and quite outside of normal everyday experience. It isn't like in a videogame where you push a button and rocket launches. Real space stuff takes place on a larger time scale. Often years or even decades. It requires a mindset or brain configuration that smartphones and immediateness of the internet wholly and completely short circuit. Smartphones encourage a state of mind that if it isn't happening right now, instantly, it doesn't exist or isn't important or has no meaning.

 

That constant repetitive nudging slows down or eliminates the deeper thinking necessary to make advancements on all the fronts of technology necessary for space exploration. Space exploration is proceeding slowly because we're not developing the materials and propulsion necessary for anything faster than the plodding efforts of the past 70 years or so.

 

For instance - I know of no one within a 50 mile radius that would be using their 2GHz 64GB 8 core smartphone to run interplanetary trajectory plots, or simulations or visualizations of new materials like a graphenic-carbide lattice. But give me 1/2 hour and I can introduce you to more than 10 people that are using the same device to keep up with celebrities and what color underwear they are wearing (or not wearing). Give me another 1/2 hour to get to the local mall and together we can observe hundreds doing that and yet even more tedium like which rock star is taking the stage at what time or if they are dating and all that other minutiae. To make matters worse they're using a multi-billion dollar planetary-wide communications network to spread this gibberish, this utter-nonsense. Such a horrible waste.

 

No kid is interested in that toy telescope over there. But give them a smartphone an they'll toil themselves away into isolation for hours on end.

 

This state of affairs is all but guaranteed to keep everyone bottom-feeding and grinding through the day.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎7‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 7:48 AM, DrVenkman said:

Oh for fuck’s sake. Moon hoaxer/conspiracy theory nutters need to learn some science. If it had been faked the Soviets would have blown the lid off it as a propaganda coup - all the telemetry from hundreds of internal systems, and all the audio and television signals were sent unencrypted and easily tracked by Soviet and Chinese scientists and engineers all the way from launch through the numerous trips to the moon (of which there were 9 after all from 1968 through 1972). Apollo 8 went to the moon. Apollo 10 went to the moon. Apollo 11 went to the moon. Apollo 12 went to the moon. Apollo 13 looped around the moon and came back immediately due to its emergency, but it went to the moon. Apollo 14 went to the moon. Apollo 15 went to the moon. Apollo 16 went to the moon. Apollo 17 went to the moon. 


This engineering and development and operational aspects of Project Apollo took upwards of half a million people over a decade to pull off. No alien technology. No conspiracy. No bullshit. Just science, engineering and SHIT LOADS of money. That’s all. Time, effort and money can accomplish amazing things if you stay focused long enough.

 

http://clavius.org

I never said that the Apollo missions didn't go to the moon, I merely suggested that that perhaps the original moon landing footage that was shown to the public was faked, for reasons that may or may not be conspiratorial.  That link that you provided is very informative though, and makes me call into question whether this line of thinking has any solid basis in reality or rational thinking.  I'm still not as 100% convinced as you seem to be that we should always take all of any government's assertions or motives at face value, though, but I am at least now better informed about the particulars of the scientific underpinnings that are often debated with regards to this subject, thanks to you.

 

Still, I think it is more reasonable to allow debate on a subject rather than to summarily dismiss it as you seem to have done with the tone of your post.  I think that when people have these sorts of open discussions it is easier to arrive at the truth of an issue than when participants resort to ridicule or derision to discredit those that they don't agree with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/20/2019 at 12:32 AM, Andrew Davie said:

There is a brilliant youtube 'series' I've been following over the past few weeks showing the restoration of an Apollo Guidance Computer (AGC). Aside from the amazingly brilliant guys doing this restoration, it's really interesting to learn about the computer technology and how it worked. Artefacts from the moon program like the AGC are still around and functional today (they ran code on it from the Apollo program of 1960s, including - and this is the amazing bit - recovering from core memory what the display was showing when it was last switched off probably in the early 1970s). The amount of work involved in developing this stuff back in the 1960s is staggering.

It's amusing to realize that core rope ROM can easily last thousands of years if not millennia. All you need to do is keep it away from moisture and other corrosive things. The "secret" is in the pattern of the wires and how they crisscross over each other. I'm fairly certain it's the most physical type of storage ever devised. You can't get more bare metal than this.

 

Having said that. My informal long-term HDD storage evaluation continues on track. A 10MB drive from 1984/1985 continues to retain all its data as does a 212MB drive from 1992. Compare that against the few years of a modern SSD. So it would seem the bigger and cruder the storage devices are the longer lived they are.

 

For those of you interested in the AGC and its significance both inside the Apollo program and outside for spinoff tech why not read these. Some are written like the theory of ops section of the early 8-bit computers. So they make for a quick evening reading.

https://www.amazon.com/Apollo-Guidance-Computer-Architecture-Operation/dp/1441908765

https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Apollo-Machine-Spaceflight-2008-04-04/dp/B01N1WJJZ7

https://www.amazon.com/Journey-Moon-History-Guidance-Computer/dp/156347185X

https://www.amazon.com/Sunburst-Luminary-Apollo-Don-Eyles/dp/0986385905

https://www.amazon.com/Apollo-Flew-Springer-Praxis-Books-ebook/dp/B00DWKPN02

https://www.amazon.com/Landing-Eagle-Inside-Cockpit-During-ebook/dp/B07PKRV5QM

 

This resource contains a frightening amount of information like the original code, info on modern-day simulations, hobbyist project/build reports, original schematic scans, and so much more.

https://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/index.html

https://archive.org/details/virtualagcproject

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/19/2019 at 2:33 PM, eebuckeye said:

Very cool.. I just went there in March so I know exactly where that is.. 🙂

 

Where is this exhibit located? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Where is this exhibit located? 
World trade center not sure if its still there.

Sent from my LGLS992 using Tapatalk

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/19/2019 at 5:45 PM, CPUWIZ said:

What does that late 70's fake living room have to do with the moon or IBM?

Umm - you didn't have a late 70s 2600 or a mid 80s boombox back in 1969?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/21/2019 at 12:16 PM, Supergun said:

 

 

100% agree with all this, specifically the comment about “smartphone distractions”. In fact, I’d go even further to state that these damned devices are the beginning of the end of humankind being content with just their surroundings & one another. They also represent the end of higher education & worthwhile intelligence.

 

I could not agree more. The reality that we have a whole generation living inside of a 4 inch screen isn't just alarming, it's pathetic.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of considerably less fame is the Gemini Guidance Computer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemini_Guidance_Computer

 

What never ceases to amaze me is that these things appear to be a box of wires and connectors and little else. Seems like this "box of wires" just moves electrons around and through resistors and capacitors, coils and connectors.. And then you have connectors going into connectors and wire harnesses. How can you get computation out of that? Where are the processing and switching elements? Where's the beef?

 

And yet it could do orbital and landing calculations, somehow! A far cry from today's +25 billion transistor chips. I suppose though we'll say the same thing in 50 years about today's state-of-the-art parts.

A19731660000CP02.jpg

A19731660000d1.jpg

Gemini_Guidance_Computer_(NASM).JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is exactly how I feel about memory. I just cannot fathom how they are able to have dozens if not hundreds of GB of memory that fit on these tiny micro surface mount electronics on these usb sticks and micro SD cards.

 

It feels like only yesterday that my  486DX266 with 64MB ram was the best computer I had ever seen. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Make that a thousand gigs. Sandisk sells a microSD card that's 1TB in size. It's expensive at $449 because it just came out. But so was the 512GB model from last year, today it sells for like $80. And by next year it should be around $30-$40.

 

I understand how today's electronics work, how they are made, and how compact they can be. With flash memory, the secret is in the multi-layer construction and multiple bits per cell. Typically 4 now or soon 5. It's like a chip on a chip on a chip, currently stacked about 100 times. I'm fairly certain the limit is over 10x that amount, or more, till it starts to become thicker. A theoretical 1 cm3 flash module could hold thousands or tens of thousands of TB.

 

A question for thought is if HDD makers will reach that high a density, they're saying by 2022 we'll have 40TB drives. But consider, today, 40TB of storage need only take 40 of those microSD cards. And that totals to be a fraction of the size of a 3.5 HDD. Though I'm fairly sure mechanical HDD will always cost less.

Edited by Keatah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My biggest personal concern with how large these memory capacities are getting is with regards to data loss and/or corruption. I’d much rather have separate units of GB sized drives holding my data organized into subgroups then to have just 1 device holding everything in 1 place. I mean, if you drop that 1 big hard drive or ESD that 1 huge SD card / USB stick and EVERYTHING is gone in an instant forever.

 

Heck, I really don’t understand why hard drives are even manufactured anymore? Who wants to pay $500 for 1 chunk of metal that if you drop it or even just shake it too hard, it’s wiped out. Seems stupid to me.

 

There must be a better way? It may be old school, but those old nasa computers & early era memory management systems seemed more solid & reliable. Big, bulky, heavy, ugly, etc. but it held the data.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is extremely cool, Nolram. How did your 2600 get involved? What cartridges are in the display? I don't think I see Space Shuttle there, but I was thinking that could have been appropriate. And what is the image on the television? 

 

Really great photos, thanks...will we ever see a mission to Mars, at least an orbit mission if not a landing? I don't think in our lifetimes. And we probably won't get back to the moon, no matter what is being said now (I know, pessimistic). I am excited for the Titan drone mission, though (that one pic we have of Titan's surface has always powered my imagination)...

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, AAA177 said:

Really great photos, thanks...will we ever see a mission to Mars, at least an orbit mission if not a landing? I don't think in our lifetimes. And we probably won't get back to the moon, no matter what is being said now (I know, pessimistic). I am excited for the Titan drone mission, though (that one pic we have of Titan's surface has always powered my imagination)...

Any talk about manned mars missions are hot air. I don't care what CEO states intentions and shows plans. It's all bullshit. And the reasoning is simple, we don't have the materials and energy sources needed for such plans. Not with manned spacecraft.

 

The Moon will be the next stop, if NASA and other companies can stop spinning circles in LEO. When it will happen? This upcoming decade? Pfftt! The current hype is all based on politics and whoever wants to flaunt PowerPoint presentations to make themselves look good. You see.

 

There's been hundreds of promises about the Moon and Mars. And? Well.. no one has gone yet.

Edited by Keatah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Keatah said:

 

 

You see. There's been hundreds of promises about the Moon and Mars. And? Wel.. no one has gone yet.

 

You are a full on imbecile for spreading such lies like they where facts. I kept it to myself the first time you started on the "we never went to the moon" bullshit in this thread a few days ago but I'm not keeping quiet about it this time. You can go back to your emulators with in game NPC friends to tell them all about your conspiracy theory, tinfoil hat wearing garbage.  Let some 1's and 0's listen to your crap so we don't have to. Shame on you as well.

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Keatah said:

Someone had a lousy day, glad it wasn't me.

 

Whatever, you keep shitting on the hero's of the space program, cool guy.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Supergun said:

My biggest personal concern with how large these memory capacities are getting is with regards to data loss and/or corruption. I’d much rather have separate units of GB sized drives holding my data organized into subgroups then to have just 1 device holding everything in 1 place. I mean, if you drop that 1 big hard drive or ESD that 1 huge SD card / USB stick and EVERYTHING is gone in an instant forever.

 

Heck, I really don’t understand why hard drives are even manufactured anymore? Who wants to pay $500 for 1 chunk of metal that if you drop it or even just shake it too hard, it’s wiped out. Seems stupid to me.

 

There must be a better way? It may be old school, but those old nasa computers & early era memory management systems seemed more solid & reliable. Big, bulky, heavy, ugly, etc. but it held the data.

The actual Flash memory array in a chip or drive returns data with a 46% error rate that must be corrected by the controller. It's pretty bad. You don't want to ever use flash for any sort of medium or long term storage. Flash is great for temporary storage of your OS and for fast access to applications. But for media it's a waste. Go mechanical.

 

You also don't want to spread data among many smaller less-dense hard drives. Why? It becomes tedious to backup. I've been storing everything I got on the biggest drive I can get - 6TB for now. Haven't lost a thing in decades.

 

Hard drives are still manufactured because of efficiency or cost-per-GB. Ignoring the Flash memory price-fixing activity, Flash is still more expensive than mechanical HDD.

 

I will give you this though, in the consumer space HDD are dying off at a steady pace that's only going to get faster. Soon enough HDD will only be in bottom-feeder computers. But I believe external HDD will remain popular for some time to come. I mean things like the WesternDigital Elements drives or Passports or NAS boxes. SSD just can't meet the reliability or long-term lifespan of a mechanical drive. Or as I mentioned, the cost-per-GB.

 

Mechanical drives can and regularly do retain their data for decades. My original Apple II 10MB HDD was last written to in 1987-1989, the data is still there. It has become an informal long-term test item. I'm spot-checking it about every 2 or 3 years now. The drives from my 486 were last written to sometime in the late 90's. I check them all the same. Mind you, just a quick look. No refreshing. All there.

Edited by Keatah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Therapist time?  Dunno, I just keep living, without a tinfoil hat.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Keatah said:

Any talk about manned mars missions are hot air. I don't care what CEO states intentions and shows plans. It's all bullshit. And the reasoning is simple, we don't have the materials and energy sources needed for such plans. Not with manned spacecraft. 


 

Agreed. I remember discussing this with someone and saying that if a manned craft landed on Mars, there's no way to bring it back (the optimistic youngster balked, but I just don't see it happening). I can't even imagine how it would lift off the planet. We probably don't really have the technology yet in practical terms. I could see an orbit of the planet, perhaps, but even then, we're probably talking about a one-trillion-dollar investment at the least. This is just my non-expert opinion. 

 

Agreed too about the billionaires...as deGrasse-Tyson stated, he'd like to see one of their mothers go and come back. I'd settle for the billionaires themselves. Like you say, not in our lifetimes...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes.. We have a good deal of the science necessary except for energy/propulsion and some materials. And those areas are the money pits. We need better turbopumps, better nozzle linings, higher capacity batteries or foolproof nuclear generators that don't require excessive bureaucracy to get off the ground.

 

But look at computers and telescopes and the navigation work done by the DSN and JPL. All the remote sensing techniques and instruments. This stuff is tried and true. And now we have "big data" so who knows what will be discovered next.

 

So for now I personally advocate development of unmanned probes and landers and such. And when the proper advances are made - send men out there.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 2:31 AM, Keatah said:

Yes.. We have a good deal of the science necessary except for energy/propulsion and some materials. And those areas are the money pits. We need better turbopumps, better nozzle linings, higher capacity batteries or foolproof nuclear generators that don't require excessive bureaucracy to get off the ground.

 

But look at computers and telescopes and the navigation work done by the DSN and JPL. All the remote sensing techniques and instruments. This stuff is tried and true. And now we have "big data" so who knows what will be discovered next.

 

So for now I personally advocate development of unmanned probes and landers and such. And when the proper advances are made - send men out there.

Perhaps one day Hubble or one of the Telescope arrays may take a close up picture of the landers to settle the controversy; we can read a license plate from space so it should be possible to see larger objects clearly recognizable. 

 

First quote:

#1 One small step for man...

 

25th Anniversary quote at the White House ML commemorative:

#2 There are great ideas undiscovered, breakthroughs available to those who can remove one of the truth's protective layers. There are many places to go beyond belief. 

 

 

Armstrong's mentions truth and removing protection from truth; what truth is he talking about and why is deceit necessary for most peoples protection?

 

From a technology perspective, what happened to Moore's law?

 

We can observe that it is now another 25 years later since the speech and 50 years distance from 1969. That's the same differential between the ML and the Wright brothers first flight and reflects Moore's law, if advances kept pace we'd be Guardians of the Galaxy by now.

 

Guardians.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Mr SQL said:

Perhaps one day Hubble or one of the Telescope arrays may take a close up picture of the landers to settle the controversy; we can read a license plate from space so it should be possible to see larger objects clearly recognizable. 

There's no controversy, just whack jobs and wing nuts as there will always be since we stopped letting them get eaten first. Hubble can't due to it's optics, but it's been done. Empty headed nutters will simply continue denying reality though. If not for their insistence on piecing together some delusional realities to feel special, insightful or a bizarre interpretation of intelligent, they would have little else to give them any self esteem.  

 

https://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/how-to-see-all-six-apollo-moon-landing-sites/

17229073722_0325e33482_o.jpg

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Space is hard. Space currently requires a lot of people teaming together. And this means the reasons for doing space must be true to the heart and soul. The heart and soul of exploration and discovery.

 

The Mercury Gemini Apollo stuff happened because of political posturing and one-upmanship. NOT because of true-to-the-heart reasons of discovery. Getting to the moon was solely to beat the Russians. Science was a 2nd afterthought. Once we won the race there was no reason to keep running it. And that is why the space program has been low-key ever since.

 

Not only that but space attracts a lot of dreamy eyed idealists. The public masses aren't interested in those idealists' objectives. The public drowns itself in petty distractions with a vengeance.

 

Your average kid today (leader of tomorrow) is more interested in Dua Lipa and Miley Cyruss and collecting likes on social media. And the young men of today are too interested in doing funky non-functional mods to their cars rather than looking up with a telescope.

Edited by Keatah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...