Ingot Power Supply --> Garbage Can?

[ivop]

18 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

My God... watching that video was nearly as bad as watching jayztwocents trying to solder a current sensing resistor back onto a graphics card.

I thought you were kidding with 'jayztwocents', like a made up name for a two bit rapper, but he actually exists!

[flashjazzcat]

2 minutes ago, ivop said:

I thought you were kidding with 'jayztwocents', like a made up name for a two bit rapper, but he actually exists!

Watch this. It's hilarious:

 

Jay gets all the ad revenue, though, since he apparently issued a copyright claim on Louis' commentary. Nice.

 

Ironically, the guy claims to have soldered before and to have a professional station at home.

[ivop]

Thanks for the link. I was looking for the original to add to my previous post, but couldn't find it.

 

As long as it sticks, "OMG"

 

[LordVaderUK]

On 3/19/2020 at 9:28 AM, Daedalus2097 said:

Just bringing this back up, since another PSU thread reminded me of it. I keep seeing an image that contains a lot of Atari PSUs and showing which ones are good and bad, but it doesn't contain my PSUs. I had assumed mine were "ingot" PSUs but I'm not sure now. Here are a couple of photos of mine - perhaps they're not very common in the US because they're 240V, and were made in the UK? I have two of them - I don't use them any more, but both of them appear to still work fine other than one needing a new DIN plug.

 

 

Does anyone have any more info on these? I can't see any way of opening them, and the feel of them makes me think they're resin-filled, but I'm interested to know more about them now...

Me too - have just received an 800XL which came with this exact power supply (UK). Is it safe to use?

 

I also got a 1050 disk drive, which has a power supply. It feels like a heavy brick too - see pic - safe to use?

 

Thanks in advance. Don't want to blow up my new (old) kit! 

[TGB1718]

The top one is a standard UK PSU for 130XE also, I have 2 and had no problems with either,

 the bottom Pic is again a stamdard AC PSU for a 1050, there's nothing much in it to go wrong (maybe an internal fuse),

its just a stepdown transformer, all dc voltages are created in the 1050 itself from the AC.

 

From the picture on the opening of this thread, the Ingot has a smooth case, not ribbed like yours

Edited April 4, 2020 by TGB1718

[+kheller2]

The Ingot is also a 120V transformer, mostly North America.  The picture at the beginning of the thread is mostly for 120V supplies.  I don't think anyone has done teardowns of european supplies.

 

[Daedalus2097]

I'd be happy enough to try a teardown on one of mine. They're both working fine but replaced with modern supplies, but they feel like they're resin-filled and there are no obvious screws or clips holding it together so I don't know if much would come of a teardown... Some day soon :)

[spicyjack]

*cough*

 

An Ebay package showed up for me last week, and inside it was an 800XL with an Ingot (my 2nd Ingot).

 

I had a little bit of free time last weekend, and did a "teardown" on that Ingot... with 5lb and 2lb sledgehammers.

 

Would it be worth it to quasi-hijack this thread with all of the pictures of Ingot destruction, or should I start a new thread with them?

 

If you've never seen one opened up, it's kind of cool looking inside.

 

 

 

Edit: added a sample of "the goods".

Edited June 27, 2020 by spicyjack
Edit2: reuploaded resized picture

[archeocomp]

I wish there was a way to implant good electronics inside an ingot case

[+sixersfan105]

7 hours ago, spicyjack said:

Would it be worth it to quasi-hijack this thread with all of the pictures of Ingot destruction, or should I start a new thread with them?

Let's see it in all its glory!

[spicyjack]

I have the pictures from the "teardown" ready to go, but I lack the energy today to post them in a way that does them justice (I cooked breakfast and dinner, and beat up on the yard in the afternoon).  Come back tomorrow, and they'll be here.  Thanks!

[spicyjack]

Okay, let's get started.

 

First, this work is licensed by: Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International (CC BY-NC-SA 4.0)

 

Second, note that safety equipment was worn during this whole little episode... safety glasses, auto repair gloves, and flip-flops, because Southern California!

 

Third, I've posted the full-sized pictures on Imgur, they're a bit large to post here.

 

Let's get started!

 

Here we have our "donor" Ingot/Boat Anchor power supply.

 

 

The smashing tools... #1, "Big Sledgy"

 

and #2, it's little brother, Little Sledgy. The donor Ingot came packaged in a zip-lock bag from the sender, but that bag didn't hold up that well to the punishment.  During the COVID-19 pandemic, all of the stores in my area started using really thick plastic bags, which are perfect for catching flying debris from sledgehammer blows... highly recommended to "bag" your prey if you're going to go off on a smashing adventure of your own. 

 

 

After this little episode, reflecting back, I think the best way to crack this sucker open is to hit it on the top corners first at the ends with cords, then flip it on it's side and then hit the edge that sticks up the highest. The goal is to pop the plastic off without doing too much damage to the contents.

 

If your goal is "surgical disassembly", I found that using finesse and the weight of the hammer with gravity worked well. If you just want to destroy it, wailing on it works too.

 

 

Transformer peeking out.

 

 

Starting to see some of the resin inside.

 

 

The transformer and the voltage regulator/power smoothing board.

 

Another shot. The purpose of the aluminum piece will become apparent in a sec.

 

Good shot of the resin that the manufacturers of this power supply used. I like how it looks like flakes of granite when you bang on it a bit.

 

Ah-ha. Voltage regulator.

 

Better shot of the voltage regulator.

 

What are you hiding?

 

A fuse and diode.

 

A capacitor and some resistors.

 

Better shot of the capacitor. I went a bit more gently around the capacitor.

 

Chton 4700microfarad capacitor, 16 volts.

 

Where the capacitor was placed on the power supply board.

 

More regulator board

 

Closeup of the fuse and diode.

 

Another shot of the diode.

 

Fuse and location for the capacitor.

 

I like how the markings of the capacitor were picked up by the resin.

 

Again, this resin looks like granite rock when broken apart.

 

Okay, that's it.  I hope you enjoyed my little teardown.

[StickJock]

I like that your "safety bag" has a target on it.  Seems appropriate, somehow.... ?

[ivop]

Thanks for the photos!

 

And then realizing there are still companies advertising to fill your electronics cavity with resin

 

Edit: it looks like the resin plus electronics come loose from the packaging quite easily. Might be the SoCal temperatures, but those can be simulated Perhaps @archeocomp's idea of putting new electronics in it could be feasible. Would look way more retro than a USB-to-DIN power supply  

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by ivop

[BillC]

54 minutes ago, ivop said:

Edit: it looks like the resin plus electronics come loose from the packaging quite easily. Might be the SoCal temperatures, but those can be simulated Perhaps @archeocomp's idea of putting new electronics in it could be feasible. Would look way more retro than a USB-to-DIN power supply  

What surprised me was that the output circuit is controlled by an L78S05(5V/2A) regulator, failure of linear regulators don't normally cause higher output voltage. It appears to be a typical linear voltage regulator circuit.

 

Maybe just using a saw to cut the bottom off along the seam, then a drill/chisel to break up the epoxy inside. It might even be possible to reuse the transformer and heatsink if this was done carefully. It would be even better if the PCB could be salvaged as well, the rest of the components are readily available.

Edited June 28, 2020 by BillC

[+Stephen]

Man - I bet if you re-capped that, it would have been perfectly fine   Re-capping fixes every problem out there, even problems that don't exist.

[+slx]

9 hours ago, ivop said:

And then realizing there are still companies advertising to fill your electronics cavity with resin

My dentist always advises against filling cavities with resin but I always suspect that‘s because he earns more with ceramic and gold fillings...

[+slx]

10 hours ago, ivop said:

And then realizing there are still companies advertising to fill your electronics cavity with resin

My dentist always advises against filling cavities with resin but I always suspect that‘s because he earns more with ceramic and gold fillings...

 

On a more serious note, I just read about a device offered for the C64 (where apparently all of the PSUs have ingot-like hazards) which is plugged between PSU and Commie, constantly monitors the voltage and immediately interrupts the power lines with some fast-switching circuitry in case of overvoltage. I wondered if something like it would allow keeping ingots for posterity or if it just not worth the hassle as there are enough problem-free PSU types (and using modern PSUs is easier as the XL/XEs only need 5V while the C64 seems to need 5V and 9V.

[archeocomp]

10 hours ago, BillC said:

What surprised me was that the output circuit is controlled by an L78S05(5V/2A) regulator, failure of linear regulators don't normally cause higher output voltage. It appears to be a typical linear voltage regulator circuit.

 

Higher voltage is caused by resistors divider circuit. Those resistors can be seen in posted pictures. 7805 is not connected directly to the ground, but (to compensate for cable/connector losses) through a resistor divider circuit which makes it output slightly more than 5V. When these resistors burn out, 7805 looses ground reference and goes high.

[Mclaneinc]

Do those photo's equate to torture porn or revenge porn

 

I'm thinking somewhere in the middle

 

Nice to see one of those bastard things meet its breaker (yeah I know, poor pun)...

 

[BillC]

11 hours ago, archeocomp said:

Higher voltage is caused by resistors divider circuit. Those resistors can be seen in posted pictures. 7805 is not connected directly to the ground, but (to compensate for cable/connector losses) through a resistor divider circuit which makes it output slightly more than 5V. When these resistors burn out, 7805 looses ground reference and goes high

It wasn't obvious to me what the resistors are for. It would only take the bottom resistor in the voltage divider failing to lose the ground connection, this would leave the 7805 ground still connected to Vin via the top resistor!

 

Repair would have been fairly simple if not for the epoxy, simply eliminate the resistors and connect the 7805 directly to ground, maybe drill some holes in the case to provide ventilation.

[+DrVenkman]

1 hour ago, BillC said:

Repair would have been fairly simple if not for the epoxy, simply eliminate the resistors and connect the 7805 directly to ground,

Considering that Atari did just that for the (internal) PSUs of the 1200XL, the 5200, and the 2600 before changing over to external 5VDC PSU bricks for the rest of the XL line you'd think they would have thought this through a bit more. Heck, when GCC designed the 7800 for Atari, they went with the tried and true internal 7805 and heatink, and *still* kept what is arguably at least as complicated as an A8 system in a very small, lightweight form factor. 

[+slx]

15 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

Considering that Atari did just that for the (internal) PSUs of the 1200XL, the 5200, and the 2600 before changing over to external 5VDC PSU bricks for the rest of the XL line you'd think they would have thought this through a bit more. Heck, when GCC designed the 7800 for Atari, they went with the tried and true internal 7805 and heatink, and *still* kept what is arguably at least as complicated as an A8 system in a very small, lightweight form factor. 

The 7800 has a 700mA PSU and needs a lot less internal space without keyboard and most connectors. Wouldn‘t an internal PSU with about twice the amps have exceeded available space at least for the 600XL?

[+DrVenkman]

7 minutes ago, slx said:

The 7800 has a 700mA PSU and needs a lot less internal space without keyboard and most connectors. Wouldn‘t an internal PSU with about twice the amps have exceeded available space at least for the 600XL?

It's all a tradeoff. Look at the 1200XL - it has a giant case because it has a bridge rectifier, TWO 7805's, and a giant heatsink. But even with all that inside, with room for airflow and whatnot, plenty of modern users fill up a bunch of that internal space with various upgrades with no ill-effects. Getting rid of the power components and heatsinks allowed the later XL and XE machines to get smaller with no risk of overheating, to be sure.

 

But that's not the point - the point is how those 7805's are wired up, which contrasts with what was being discussed above about the insides of the Ingot. Just because you moved the power components into a separate box that sits on the floor doesn't mean you have to toss common sense out the window with how you're designing it. When a 7805 fails in a Heavy Sixer, or a 7800 or a 5200 or a 1200XL, the voltage output typically goes low, not high. Systems get flaky and unstable and pretty obviously unusable, leaving plenty of time for the user to investigate and get the thing repaired.

 

When the Ingot goes bad (or when a similarly-designed C64 brick goes bad), they output enough voltage to kill ICs quickly - e.g., they are failing "hot" not low. Which is just dumb design.

[spicyjack]

On 6/28/2020 at 1:22 PM, ivop said:

Edit: it looks like the resin plus electronics come loose from the packaging quite easily. Might be the SoCal temperatures, but those can be simulated Perhaps @archeocomp's idea of putting new electronics in it could be feasible. Would look way more retro than a USB-to-DIN power supply  

 

I took some more pictures of the case post-teardown, and the only reason the resin "brick" came loose was because I applied  force to it.

 

You can sort of "fake it" putting it back together once you get it apart, but it won't pass close inspection.

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by spicyjack
reworded reply for clarity