coderbr Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Hi everyone. Sorry if this is not the correct place to post this message ... I'm new here. I used my eprom programmer (top300). And I copied the eprom from a cartridge. I tried to make it work on the stella emulator. but I did not succeed. Informations: 2 game cartridge Rentacon Cartridge Brand had inscribed on plate 4.8. I renamed bin rom to a26. the eprom was 27c128. The cartridge had two extra chips (I have to check the part code) The cartridge had a game change switch. Does anyone know why it doesn't work? thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_79 Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Probably Stella can't autodetect the type of cartridge. What games are on that cart? the fact that it uses a 27c128 eprom (16KB) and that it has 2 extra chips suggests that the 2 games are using bankswitching. Try this: in Stella, select the rom, then click Options, then Game Properties. In the "cartrige" tab, change "Type (*)" from "Auto-detect" to "2IN1 Multicart (4-32K)", then click "OK" and "Close". Try again running the rom. If it works, you should see one of the 2 games and you should be able to switch to the other one by pressing CTRL+R If it doesn't work maybe the cart uses a different bankswitching method, and/or the banks are arranged differently than what Stella expects. You can try to split the rom in two 8KB parts and see if they run. Else an analysis of the rom is required. Can you post the rom here? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coderbr Posted July 26, 2019 Author Share Posted July 26, 2019 Yes, thanks for the prompt reply. I'm at work now. Once I get home I'll gather the information from the additional chips, and try to post the rom here. I will try the commands you taught stella. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coderbr Posted July 26, 2019 Author Share Posted July 26, 2019 (edited) Thank you for the tips. They work. However some graphic artifacts appeared on the screen ... and one of the games starts and is rotating the image. The name of the games (1: TIME-PILOT 2: not identified) I separated the rom and two from 8kb. but they work the same way ... (do I have a bad dump?) These additional chips (2x 74LS10) Do something special or simply to select the address legs to indicate which part of the eprom to use? This game was bought in Brazil. (attached dump). Thank you. ROMs atari.rar Edited July 26, 2019 by coderbr add picture 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_79 Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Your dumps are good. The second game is "Vanguard" The reason they don't work correctly in Stella is that they use a different bankswitching method that is not currently supported. I found this post from 2014 with other 2 roms that seem to use the same scheme: Compared to the known versions, the banks here are in reversed order and the hotspots are $02A0 for bank 0 and $02C0 for bank 1. I'm sure that support for this will be eventually added in Stella. In the meantime, I attach here the two games hacked to use the standard Atari bankswitching, so you can play them in the emulator. Time Pilot (Rentacom) (F8 conversion hack).bin Vanguard (Rentacom) (F8 conversion hack).bin I guess you desoldered the eprom from the board to dump it. If you have the time, it would be useful if you could also desolder the two 74LS10 ICs and take pictures of the two sides of the board so that the traces are visible. It would help to draw a schematic and see exactly how this bankswitching works. Anyway, many thanks for sharing those dumps! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coderbr Posted July 26, 2019 Author Share Posted July 26, 2019 Thanks for all the help. I will try to copy the card this weekend and put the scheme here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cetics Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 Good evening everyone, the user who created this post is my friend and asked me to help him with the board. I hope you copied it satisfactorily. I omitted the unnecessary points from the original board. I'm attaching the DIPTRACE project, and the gerbers, (the size of the slot pads are probably wrong I didn't measure the correct size, I just drew) * Before using these designs, please compare with the original board photo, as I may have been mistaken at some point. cartatari.zip 5 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cetics Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 (edited) Regarding DUMP: As alex_79 said, the dump was fine. We recorded it on a 27C512 eprom and were able to make it work on the french gemini Atari console. Edited July 28, 2019 by cetics 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_79 Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 (edited) Many, many thanks for taking the time to document this board. It's very useful to understand how this bankswitching works and to add support for it to Stella. Here is a quick diagram of the part of the circuit related to bakswitching: Any address with A12=0, A9=1, A6=0, A5=1 cause a switch to bank 0 Any address with A12=0, A9=1, A6=1, A5=0 cause a switch to bank 1 Any address with A12=0, A9=1, A6=1, A5=1 correspond to the "undefined" state of a NAND SR latch, so it may or not cause a bankswitch. So there are several different addresses that cause the switch to the same bank, and actually this include those used in the "UA Limited" games ("Funky Fish" and "Pleiades"), which makes me think they use the same circuit. Thanks again @cetics and @coderbr! Edited July 28, 2019 by alex_79 3 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cetics Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 Thanks for the explanation about the banksswitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 The bankswitching has been added. Either you wait for the next release (6.1) or build your own version. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cetics Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 It seems to be a common practice in Brazil. I found other cards using the same system. Here we have one with: TIME PILOT - MOON PATROL - PHOENIX - HERO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 Dump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cetics Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 I'll try to do next. I have to remove the eprom or read from the pins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cetics Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 On 1/29/2020 at 3:55 PM, Thomas Jentzsch said: Dump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spadovan Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 (edited) Pessoal eu acompanhado vocês desde 2015 mas nunca escrevi nada, apenas ficava lendo os artigos sobre Atari. Lendo sobre esse post do codebr resolvi analisar uma placa que tenho da Digitel Brasil o jogo é único em uma EPROM AM2764-4DC. Na primeira leitura dela vieram dados mas nada de jogo, então efetuei uma limpeza nos contatos que estavam com bastante corrosão do tempo, pois está fora de sua caixa há muito tempo. para minha surpresa o jogo é o Phoenix, mas está bugado não sei dizer se é a EPROM ou meu gravador, anexo está o dump original e as modificações que efetuei para funcionar no Stella. Vejo que este meu jogo tem uma diferença em relação ao dump da Rentacom cetics no offsite 0FF0 8 0D e 0FF0 9 28 e 1FF0 8 0D e 1FF0 9 28, estes endereços são iguais a ROM original da Activision. Outro detalhe que achei interessante esse esquema UA se parece demais com o 0840 me parece que são apenas os endereços hotspots que mudam. Guys I've been following you since 2015 but I never wrote anything, I just kept reading the articles about Atari. Reading about this post from codebr I decided to analyze a board I have from Digitel Brasil the game is unique in an AM2764-4DC EPROM. In the first reading of it, there were data but no game, so I cleaned the contacts that had a lot of corrosion from time, as it has been out of its box for a long time. to my surprise the game is Phoenix, but it's buggy I can't tell if it's the EPROM or my recorder, attached is the original dump and the modifications I made to work on Stella. I see that this game of mine has a difference from the Rentacom cetics dump on offsite 0FF0 8 0D and 0FF0 9 28 and 1FF0 8 0D and 1FF0 9 28, these addresses are the same as the original Activision ROM. Another detail that I found interesting, this UA scheme looks too much like the 0840, it seems to me that it's just the hotspots addresses that change. digitel-2764-corrigido-UA.bin digitel-2764-dump-original.BIN digitel-2764-Phoenix(0840 conversion hack).084 digitel-2764-Phoenix(F8 conversion hack).bin Cartucho 8k Digitel.sch Edited March 5, 2022 by spadovan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 (edited) Your UA and 0840 ROMs both work in Stella using the (extended) UA bankswitching. And the 0840 version also with 0840 bankswitching. UA bankswitching masks the hotspot address with 0x1260 and then checks for 0x220 and 0x240. 0840 bankswitching masks the hotspot address with 0x1840 and checks for 0x800 and 0x840. So your 0840 hotspots 0xfa0, 0xfc0 match both types here, because your hotspots are changing two bits (0x20 and 0x40). I wonder why your original dump uses SED instead of CLD. Maybe bit rot. But then, only one single bit? Your dump is identical to the attached one, except for the game/company logo (and the SED). BTW: "Real" 0840 ROMs (e.g. Toyshop Trouble) do not work with Stella's UA bankswitching. Phoenix (tpilot-mpatrol-phoenix-hero.001).bin Edited March 5, 2022 by Thomas Jentzsch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spadovan Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 2 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: Your UA and 0840 ROMs both work in Stella using the (extended) UA bankswitching. And the 0840 version also with 0840 bankswitching. UA bankswitching masks the hotspot address with 0x1260 and then checks for 0x220 and 0x240. 0840 bankswitching masks the hotspot address with 0x1840 and checks for 0x800 and 0x840. So your 0840 hotspots 0xfa0, 0xfc0 match both types here, because your hotspots are changing two bits (0x20 and 0x40). Entendi, obrigado pela explicação sobre os bankswitchs. As roms eu modifiquei elas para funcionar em 0840 e F8, eu fiz isso pois tenho uma Cartucho Atarimania de 16 jogos que pelos meus estudos utilizam o sistema econobanking, eles tem o mesmo formato de montagem da rom desta placa Digitel. Got it, thanks for the explanation about bankswitchs. The roms I modified them to work in 0840 and F8, I did this because I have an Atarimania Cartridge of 16 games that, according to my studies, use the econobanking system, they have the same format of assembly of the rom of this Digitel board. 2 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: I wonder why your original dump uses SED instead of CLD. Maybe bit rot. But then, only one single bit? é pode ser, posso fazer 2 coisas, primeiro remontar o cartucho com a eprom original e segundo apagar e regravar. It can be, I can do two things, first reassemble the cartridge with the original eprom and second erase and rewrite. 2 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: Your dump is identical to the attached one, except for the game/company logo (and the SED). estes são os endereços que estão diferentes these are the addresses that are different Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 6 hours ago, spadovan said: these are the addresses that are different These are the hotspots of the original F8 ROM. They are random when you dump the ROMs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spadovan Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 On 3/6/2022 at 5:15 AM, Thomas Jentzsch said: These are the hotspots of the original F8 ROM. They are random when you dump the ROMs. obrigado pela explicação. thank you for the explanation. On 3/5/2022 at 10:58 PM, spadovan said: The roms I modified them to work in 0840 and F8, I did this because I have an Atarimania Cartridge of 16 games that, according to my studies, use the econobanking system, they have the same format of assembly of the rom of this Digitel board. está é a rom , ela pertence ao cartucho Atari Mania 16 jogos ouro, não consegui fazer o dump em sua totalidade, apenas metade dela, é uma PROM RICOH RP231026D. this is the rom, it belongs to the Atari Mania 16 games gold cartridge, I couldn't make the dump in its entirety, only half of it, it's a PROM RICOH RP231026D. rom-mania-8k.BIN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 All except for Subterranea work (for some you have to adjust bankswitching type to UA). Does Subterranea work in the cart? Maybe something went wrong with the dump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spadovan Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 42 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: All except for Subterranea work (for some you have to adjust bankswitching type to UA). Does Subterranea work in the cart? Maybe something went wrong with the dump? Eu não sei, o cart parou tentei desmontar para reparar mas danifiquei muito a placa. Para mim todos funcionaram ajustando o bankswitch para 0840, exceto o Subterranea. I don't know, the cart stopped, I tried to disassemble it to repair it but I damaged the board a lot. For me they all worked setting the bankswitch to 0840 except Subterranea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_79 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 18 hours ago, spadovan said: I couldn't make the dump in its entirety, only half of it, it's a PROM RICOH RP231026D. According to the datasheet, that mask rom is pin compatible with the 27512 eprom. The difference is only pin 22, which is /OE in the 27512, while in the RP231026D is the additional A16 address line. So if you dump it as a 27512 you'll only get the first 64KB (A16 low). To get the second half of the rom (A16 high), you could bend out pin 22, so it doesn't connect into the eprom programmer/reader socket anymore, and wire it to pin 28 (VCC), then read it again as a 27512. You can also do that by modifying a 28 pin socket, instead of bending and soldering to the pins of the actual chip. I think that would work, but if you try, you do it at your own risk! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spadovan Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 obrigado pela explicação. thank you for the explanation. On 3/9/2022 at 8:04 AM, alex_79 said: I think that would work, but if you try, you do it at your own risk! fiz por conta e risco, efetuei uma limpeza nos contatos e depois as duas leituras e funcionou bem. obrigado alex_79. estou anexando os arquivos extraídos and foto da placa. I did it at my own risk, I cleaned the contacts and then the two readings and it worked fine. thank you alex_79. I am attaching the extracted files and photo of the board. 27512-pino22-down.BIN 27512-pino22-up.BIN 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_79 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 Thanks for posting the rom and the pictures of the board. The firs part of the rom is identical to the one posted before, and all the games in the second part seem to work fine with the generalized UA scheme in Stella. I quickly checked the traces in the pictures, and looks like the bankswitching logic is identical to the one of the board shown in this thread: https://atariage.com/forums/topic/310947-please-help-with-2-in-1-8k-diy-cart/?do=findComment&comment=4625650 Quote Any address with A12=0, A10=1, A9=1, A7=1, A6=0, A5=1 cause a switch to bank 0 Any address with A12=0, A10=1, A9=1, A7=1, A6=1, A5=0 cause a switch to bank 1 Any address with A12=0, A10=1, A9=1, A7=1, A6=1, A5=1 may or not cause a bankswitch (undefined state of the NAND SR latch). which means: address mask: $16e0 $6a0: switches to bank 0 $6c0: switches to bank 1 $6e0: "illegal" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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