Jump to content
IGNORED

MiSTer FPGA


Newsdee

Recommended Posts

20 hours ago, Burt_Lancaster said:

By the way, someone please explain me how people who seem to be so demanding in terms of fidelity to original hardware uses wireless controllers

 

It depends on how sensitive you are to lag.  I mean if you have a threshold that sits somewhere above original hardware on a crt, if you can reduce lag in most places you can afford some on the controller comms overhead.  While I don't doubt that some people are very sensitive to lag, and the effect is cumulative between parts of the setup, I think people tend to overblow the amount from some individual sources.

 

Not everyone is as demanding about every aspect, and people that are demanding about various aspects may not be so for the same reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you all for the detailed answers! I will keep tracking Mister's progress. Hopefully the low latency software + hardware adaptors become part of a new "standard" for Mister setups and cores, so they become easy to buy/use for starters.

 

@Newsdee Re my comment about I/O it sounded like I was somehow complaining. It is great that people take the initiative to simplify the hardware parts with the subsequent savings for everybody. The thing is that since everything is moving so fast you may not know when / what to buy, but it is perfectly understandable. And, as I said, it is good news in any case!

 

Thanks for keeping up working on it. Thousands of people are silently following Mister and I think that in the next months Mister may become a massively used device in the retrogaming community.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Just found out  MiSTer SNES now supports SPC7110 which I believe is a first ... http://92.222.181.53/viewtopic.php?f=117&t=31926&sid=fccba2e321f708c0d2d61ad9b1dd4651&start=475#p382163

and here:

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/SNES_MiSTer/issues/102

 

AND:

 

neogeo core supports some (most?) of the .neo format games  (.neo being the NeoSD/Pro format)

http://92.222.181.53/viewtopic.php?f=117&t=31926&sid=fccba2e321f708c0d2d61ad9b1dd4651&start=450#p381343

 

[with all of the SmokeMonster packs usual places going kaput it may help someone like me that did not take advantage and downloaded the NeoGeo Dark Soft roll-up in the SmokeMonster packs when he had a chance .... my fault really I thought I'd never needed it, who knew that was the set used as a baseline for MiSTer ....... given the previous note about encrypted/unencrypted I venture the unsupported games are the one that require to be in unencrypted format but I do NOT know so don;t quote me on that]

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/12/2019 at 5:44 AM, Burt_Lancaster said:

Hi,

 

During the last weeks many people are starting to be interested in Mister. If you have a limited budget and cannot allow to buy every RGB-modded system + flashcart, it sounds like the perfect retro gaming device. I am still reluctant to enter into it for a couple of reasons:

 

  1. One of the main developers does not seem to have lag issues among his main priorities (to say the least). See post in atari-forum http://92.222.181.53/viewtopic.php?f=117&t=34953&sid=830682cd0116b28859b5973a1dbb3f68#p361485. A perfect lag experience is one of the main faces of hi fidelity hardware simulation and that IS the whole point of FPGA-based systems for someone who just wants to play. If you do not care about lag, the only point for using FPGA systems is to preserve hardware schematics and layouts, which maybe ok for some, but for others the whole thing missess the point, as there are many emulation alternatives available... By the way, someone please explain me how people who seem to be so demanding in terms of fidelity to original hardware uses wireless controllers...
  2. Everything is changing very quick (which is not a bad thing). However if those changes affect hardware, it is really is an issue for someone who is thinking of buying. We have just seen that with the new needs for 128 SDRAM (which is ok), but also it seems that the I/O board may not even be necessary for analog output?
  3. This reminds me a lot of the situation in raspberry-pi devices like the RGB-Pi. And I perfectly understand the technological differences between them. At first everything looks spectacular, then you see small performance differences vs original hardware, then the lag is not quite the same, some cores never get to the point, etc.

Disclaimer:

  • I perfectly understand how wonderful Analogue systems are
  • I perfectly understand that there is a community working on Mister FPGA it on a for free basis, so all my respect to them. Really.
  • I perfectly understand that most of the cores are still in work in progress
  • I perfectly understand that Mister may not be for me and that is ok. I am just stating the reasons why I think it is not for me at this point in time. I am just giving my opinion. For free.

Please change my mind.

According to some real examples, it looks like even with usb, there is no discernible input lag. 

This is by no means conclusive, but I believe most consoles poll input from controllers on each frame. which is ever 17 ish ms(for 60hz). There is some lag inherent in usb but not enough to miss a poll on frame, but if it does you'd never be more than a frame off from the time you pushed the button, even with original console it is possible to miss an input poll, causing your input to be polled on the next frame. Actual oscilloscope tests have been conducted which can measure the tiny amount of lag in usb. While the best approach is always zero latency in retro consoles, here we see what I would argue is a reasonable amount of lag. An amount that can only be measured with expensive equipment and not humanly discerned. Of course, best is original. This is my rudimentary understanding of input latency, what is best I think would be for you would be to try it out for yourself. The upcoming add ons will ensure 100% that input will be best possible. But if you can run the original system next to MISTer with it's existing usb setup and the result is identical... 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are two separate solutions being worked on (by different groups) to connect native controllers and bypass the USB stack. 

 

So the hardware can use native controllers and behave exactly like the original machine, but at a certain premium since you need a custom addon.

 

It's like for video. Either you accept a certain lag from an LCD and use HDMI, or you need both a CRT and a board add-on for analog video.

 

I think those extensions are fair enough, not all users will want them, but they exist for those who do. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Newsdee said:

There are two separate solutions being worked on (by different groups) to connect native controllers and bypass the USB stack. 

 

So the hardware can use native controllers and behave exactly like the original machine, but at a certain premium since you need a custom addon.

 

It's like for video. Either you accept a certain lag from an LCD and use HDMI, or you need both a CRT and a board add-on for analog video.

 

I think those extensions are fair enough, not all users will want them, but they exist for those who do. 

It doesn't have to be all or none. I can accept the <1 frame of lag from my TCL TV (according to RTings) but I'm doing things to reduce lag in other areas. I got a Bliss-Box with the Genesis-style controller cable, which connects to my 8bitdo M30 2.4G. The 8bitdo has been measured to introduce around 4 milliseconds. Since I'm using it in LLAPI mode, I've got the whole chain down to around 18 milliseconds. I can't feel or see or hear it, so I'm happy. It's on par with a real console connected to a RetroTINK or OSSC. The only way to improve it is to get a CRT, and since I have an IO board (got it for SUPER cheap on eBay) I can go that route with a VGA monitor if I want later. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/26/2019 at 11:44 PM, derFunkenstein said:

It doesn't have to be all or none. I can accept the <1 frame of lag from my TCL TV (according to RTings) but I'm doing things to reduce lag in other areas. 

True, there is room for experimentation and find what works best for you.

 

But what I'm trying to highlight is that it is possible to achieve a true lag free setup with a MiSTer, whereas that is not the case with a RPi (if anything, because its CPU can't emulate a cycle accurate SNES, for example), or an Analogue NT/SG until the DAC comes out (as it can't connect to CRT yet).

 

Anyways this is a false dichotomy. Analogue devices are a superb choice for cartridge gaming, and the RPi remains the cheapest option if you are on a budget. It's all a matter of what tradeoffs you are willing to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, RabidWookie said:

I'd heard a dual ram slot board was in the works in case future cores need multiple banks in parallel.

You can already install 2 SDRAM boards. There is also a new feature to output native 240p video from the HDMI port, so you can connect an HDMI to VGA converter instead of the IO board.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should add that currently only 128MB is supported by all cores, and there are no plans to support more for now. So using dual 128MB boards for 256MB won't give you any benefits.

 

Bear in mind the DE10 Nano has 1GB of DDR RAM as well, and cores use that if possible. Only cores with ROMs that require very fast access timings use SDRAM, and Neogeo are probably the biggest chip based ROMs out there (CD/optical media are slower and can work with other typed of storage).

Edited by Newsdee
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great video explaing the benefits of FPGA, MiSTer, Analogue devices, and more:

 

I will add one correction though, to give credit where due: the MiSTer SNES core was made by srg320 without referencing SD2SNES code, but raher using various other references (including byuu's documentation for bsnes/higan). Believe it or not, he did not own a SNES before hand!

 

Srg320 is also the author of the HDL code to support Virtua Racing on the Genesis core, which was then licensed by the MegaSD for use in their cart (note, srg320 is a different person than Sorgelig).

Edited by Newsdee
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I've had my MiSTer getup running for about a month now, and I've come to the conclusion that it's more "gaming system" than "tinker toy" than I expected. Playing a lot more and messing with it not at all since setup. Really digging it. 

 

Also got an email from misteraddons indicating that my order is ready to ship, including a 128 MB SDRAM board and a USB hub that I don't think I really need (OTG hub has been perfectly functional), but it'll make my setup look cleaner. That's awesome, didn't expect to get the SDRAM board that quickly. :D

Edited by derFunkenstein
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

That external memory concern isn't a concern any more, since there are now RAM boards with 64 and 128 MB of memory. I got the 128 MB card from MisterAddons and it works great with any core that needs RAM at all, not just the ones with extra support. Genesis, SNES, TG 16, NES, Neo Geo, GB/GBC all work great without swapping. 

 

I'm very curious about whether someone will find a way to port Sega CD, since CD access times aren't latency-critical and could possibly happen via direct SD access without loading ISOs into memory. There's been work on a PC Engine CD core, which should be even easier but thus far incomplete, so maybe I'm just talking out my ass. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pezz is quickly becoming a fave for me, especially in MiSTer realm.  I highly suggest his Amiga setup video and scripts one. From another Atari thread I picked out a specific 256 Sd card a member claimed was compatible to put my MiSTer build on. Has anyone figured out total disk space spec details for a currently complete Mister Software library or rough estimation?  That is, some sets people might use No-Intro, and others might use Smokemonsters.  Maybe you have a complete ScummVM set that takes up more space. The ao486 core I can't even imagine a complete romset for. Perhaps the better question that is also sure to provoke childish giggling is: "Who has the biggest Mister?"  "How much space does it take up?" Is anyone planning ahead for USB drives when CD support might get added? We are one hypothetical surprise announcement of a Sony PSX core away from instantly scrambling for storage beyond SD cards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, seastalker said:

Is anyone planning ahead for USB drives when CD support might get added?

Yep. There is already support for both USB drives and network drives (using one of the scripts Pezz talks about).

The file picker also treats zip files as folders, so e.g. you can have all your Genesis stuff in one compressed file.

 

If I'm not mistaken, the only limitation is that .hdf disk images for virtual hard drives must remain uncompressed,

but not many systems require those, only a few computer cores.

Edited by Newsdee
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...