MiSTer FPGA

[Newsdee]

I have more than one MiSTer. One has a Blisster and another a USB hub. Long story short, Blisster is a USB hub with 4 regular USB ports and 2 "bliss-box" connectors. Those function as built-in adapters to legacy controllers, and can translate to both USB and a special mode that is closer to the metal, but not official in MiSTer cores. 

 

The thing to bear in mind is that there have been extensive tests of the USB stack (by different people) and it was found that some (wired) gamepads ran at 1ms polling intervals, and most slower gamepads can be made to go as fast (with a bit of setting tinkering).

 

One surprising result, by the way, is that 8BitDo controllers that are wired or use 2.4ghz RF are faster in wired mode than the bluetooth controllers of the same company in wired mode. Blisster runs at 2ms if I'm not mistaken, and cheap DYI Arduino adapters have no problem with 1ms polling.

 

Using the Blisster as USB hub is basically the same as using a USB hub plus a Bliss Gamer Pro adapter, the 4-play, or an Arduino adapter. If you have some bliss-box products already or like their approach then a Blisster makes sense. You can really ignore all that "low latency" stuff unless you use a CRT and want to tinker.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Newsdee

[seastalker]

Newsdee, you have been such a wealth of information over the years.  Thank you again!

[derFunkenstein]

On 5/13/2020 at 11:03 AM, zetastrike said:

I got my Blisster a few days ago.  So far, I love it.  I can feel a difference with it vs using a USB controller via my hub board.  Right now I only have adapter cables for NES and SNES, but I have a DB9 and PC Engine on the way.  It has a built in power switch as well, so you don't need to plug/unplug the thing to turn it on or off.  

 

Don't pay attention to Sorg or any of the MiSTer cult.  He is not a video game person and doesn't understand why people care about input lag and the MiSTer cult treats him like Jesus Christ.  The Blisster itself has a firmware that is technically closed source, so it is therefore a sewer rat and needs to be exterminated as such.  

 

Again, stay away from the Mister discord and forum and it's much easier to enjoy the thing.

I'm just quoting this for something along the lines of "say it louder for those in the back". There's a ton of drama in the people involved. And then there's further drama from the unofficial core makers like Jotego, who literally sent an email to his Patreon subscribers calling out the Rygar core for not implementing FM audio the way he thought it should be. I'm a patron because I support the CPS-1 work, but seriously, why is this a thing? What could this email possibly contribute?

 

 

 

[hyrulebr]

12 hours ago, Newsdee said:

I have more than one MiSTer. One has a Blisster and another a USB hub. Long story short, Blisster is a USB hub with 4 regular USB ports and 2 "bliss-box" connectors. Those function as built-in adapters to legacy controllers, and can translate to both USB and a special mode that is closer to the metal, but not official in MiSTer cores. 

 

The thing to bear in mind is that there have been extensive tests of the USB stack (by different people) and it was found that some (wired) gamepads ran at 1ms polling intervals, and most slower gamepads can be made to go as fast (with a bit of setting tinkering).

 

One surprising result, by the way, is that 8BitDo controllers that are wired or use 2.4ghz RF are faster in wired mode than the bluetooth controllers of the same company in wired mode. Blisster runs at 2ms if I'm not mistaken, and cheap DYI Arduino adapters have no problem with 1ms polling.

 

Using the Blisster as USB hub is basically the same as using a USB hub plus a Bliss Gamer Pro adapter, the 4-play, or an Arduino adapter. If you have some bliss-box products already or like their approach then a Blisster makes sense. You can really ignore all that "low latency" stuff unless you use a CRT and want to tinker.

Thanks for the explanation! And about Blisster vs SNAC? Are both the same? (excepting that SNAC is officially supported in some cores).

 

 

 

[Newsdee]

12 hours ago, hyrulebr said:

Thanks for the explanation! And about Blisster vs SNAC? Are both the same? (excepting that SNAC is officially supported in some cores).

 

No, it's a different thing completely. I need to get a bit technical to explain it, hope this is clear enough:

 

You will notice that official IO boards have a 9-pin connector (actually a USB 3.0 plug, labeled "not USB" on the PCB )

That connector is for direct communication to the FPGA, and has 7 data pins, one ground, and voltage pins available.

 

The (official) purpose of this port is non-standard controllers, such as using original lightguns with a CRT.

"SNAC" is nothing more than a voltage level shifter, in other words a cheap PCB with resistors to convert 5V (of the controller) into 3.3V (used by the FPGA).
 

SNAC was first used for the NES and SNES cores, but requires you to match the core with controllers and is single player only (in other words, Player 2 has to use USB)

I think now somebody has added it to the MD core as well, but that's about it in terms of official support for cores. Still, for lightguns, that's pretty good.

 

Some people took that idea further in different ways, none of them official:

• Encode the controller with a special protocol, so you can use a SNES controller with MD cores, etc (requires modified cores to support the "common language")
• Modify the main MiSTer binary so you can control the OSD with these controllers (requires fork of main binary)
• Take an extra pin of the FPGA to create "SNAC" for two players (which could break compatibility down the line)

 

In Blisster (and LLAMA) only the 1st item applies and is optional, i.e. you can use them in USB mode entirely with the official cores.

Blisster also has a clever approach for the OSD menu, it detects when it opens and switches to USB mode to control it (thereby not needing any special MiSTer firmware changes).
 

The last two items are sometimes called SNAC+ or two-player SNAC in social media.

I haven't used it myself (it probably works fine) but it has the caveat that future official hardware may repurpose that 8th pin.

 

I could go into comparisons of the three approaches, but it would require going further into more hairy details (e.g. lag vs. jitter and original polling intervals of consoles).

Personally I got SNAC and a Blisster, I may get one of the SNAC+ just to try it, but I didn't feel compelled to use it yet.

But here's a good summary of the latency situation with MiSTer:

 

 

If there was not so much drama around these topics, we probably would have one approach by now.
But these things are inevitable in open source, just look at all those MAME forks...

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Newsdee

[derFunkenstein]

0.06 frames means 1 millisecond with 1kHz polling. That’s good enough for me, and probably good enough for anything that’s not a light gun. 

[Cosmic Owl]

18 hours ago, derFunkenstein said:

I'm just quoting this for something along the lines of "say it louder for those in the back". There's a ton of drama in the people involved. And then there's further drama from the unofficial core makers like Jotego, who literally sent an email to his Patreon subscribers calling out the Rygar core for not implementing FM audio the way he thought it should be. I'm a patron because I support the CPS-1 work, but seriously, why is this a thing? What could this email possibly contribute?

 

 

There was that other spat of drama between him and Sorg a week or two ago. Any idea what that was about? I only saw the email Jotego sent after the fact and didn't see what lead up to that.

 

I wasn't too bothered by this latest email, at least he didn't call the Rygar core out by name, unless I missed it somewhere. I did think it was kinda neat learning about how some cores implement another z80 to run a sound emulator. Sure, it may not be the best, but it's still interesting.

[konradklaus]

@Newsdee Thanks for the awesome run down.  I just got my Blisster in the other day and have been having fun with it (although either my neo geo adapter is bum or the controller is).  Anyways, I think I have it set up properly, although I have no idea what to do with the usb cable included.  One end is usb and the other is something I am unfamiliar with.  I couldn't find any documentation on what to do with it.  Do you know?

[zetastrike]

2 hours ago, konradklaus said:

@Newsdee Thanks for the awesome run down.  I just got my Blisster in the other day and have been having fun with it (although either my neo geo adapter is bum or the controller is).  Anyways, I think I have it set up properly, although I have no idea what to do with the usb cable included.  One end is usb and the other is something I am unfamiliar with.  I couldn't find any documentation on what to do with it.  Do you know?

 

I think you're referring to the cable that goes from the Blisster to the IO board.  Without that the LLAPI (serial/lagless) mode doesn't work.  If you don't have it connecting the blisster to the IO board, then everything is still running in USB mode.

[Newsdee]

Do you mean the flat connector on the right of this picture? That's a USB 3.0 Micro-B plug; in the case of Blisster it's used for LLAPI with MiSTer, as zetastrike rightly pointed out.

 

It can also be used with a PC to update firmware, but there is an update script you can run from MiSTer that is much easier to use.

 

You can find the script in the LLAPI core fork repository:

https://github.com/MiSTer-LLAPI

 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Newsdee

[konradklaus]

18 hours ago, Newsdee said:

Do you mean the flat connector on the right of this picture? That's a USB 3.0 Micro-B plug; in the case of Blisster it's used for LLAPI with MiSTer, as zetastrike rightly pointed out.

 

Yeah, that's it.  Crap... I don't have an IO board, I just have a pcb with a fan.  I didn't see a spot on the main Mister board for it.  I guess I wasted some money

[Steven Pendleton]

So do I need a USB hub? Like actually NEED a USB hub? If so, why? I don't see a point in buying it if I can just use a converter to plug in USB controllers. I was under the impression that the only things that you actually need are the DE10-Nano, the RAM, and maybe something for cooling. Still, I have not been able to get my MiSTer to work properly since I ran the update script a few months ago, and that also made several compatible controllers stop working.

 

I'm still using the SD card that the thing came with, and I also have always had some weird audio issues when running a game on any core for the first time after powering on. I've been meaning to buy a new SD card for the past 3 weeks or so, but I've been too lazy to actually do it and there is always the possibility that buying a new SD card won't fix it. I tried my friend's Samsung SD card from his MiSTer (which has no problems at all) and it had the same problems as my SD card, so I am hesitant to waste money.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Steven Pendleton

[konradklaus]

1 minute ago, Steven Pendleton said:

So do I need a USB hub? Like actually NEED a USB hub? If so, why? I don't see a point in buying it if I can just use a converter to plug in USB controllers. I was under the impression that the only things that you actually need are the DE10-Nano, the RAM, and maybe something for cooling. Still, I have not been able to get my MiSTer to work properly since I ran the update script a few months ago, and that also made several compatible controllers stop working.

 

 

a USB hub board or a hub in general?  You need something.  I used a cheap little usb hub I had around, until I got my Blisster.  I don't think you need the USB board though.  I used mine just fine without one.  I'm not sure about the SD card sound issues.  

[Steven Pendleton]

Just now, konradklaus said:

a USB hub board or a hub in general?  You need something.  I used a cheap little usb hub I had around, until I got my Blisster.  I don't think you need the USB board though.  I used mine just fine without one.  I'm not sure about the SD card sound issues.  

I have a micro USB to USB A converter. That's it.

[Steven Pendleton]

Just tried the Transcend SD card from my SSDS3 and I still can't get any controllers to actually work. Every time I configure a controller in the configure joystick menu it works fine, but then when I finish configuring the controller it doesn't work in the menu at all and the core menus tell me that the controller is undefined. The only controller that I have found that works is the PS4 controller, and even then, the d-pad does nothing in the system menu. The analog stick works fine, though, even if I do not define the analog stick's function. It does actually configure properly in the core menus and in games, though.

 

I'm thinking that I might have a bad DE10-Nano since it came with a few bent pins. I figured that it's no problem, carefully fixed the bent pin where the RAM goes, and then didn't use it for 3 months as I waited for BlisSTer to ship before cancelling a few weeks ago. Not sure if I can return it to Digi-Key now.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Steven Pendleton

[Newsdee]

4 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

I have a micro USB to USB A converter. That's it.

 It's all about how many USB devices you want to use. I always have at least 3 to 4 devices connected (keyboard, mouse, WiFi, BT, 8bitdo dongles, etc).

 

You can use a single port too if you don't care about any of that. Any old USB hub will work too, but you should always use a powered done. The USB Board is only if you want it all in a nice little case.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Newsdee

[Steven Pendleton]

Just now, Newsdee said:

 It's all about how many USB devices you want to use. I always have at least 3 to 4 devices connected (keyboard, mouse, WiFi, BT, 8bitdo dongles, etc).

 

You can use a single port too if you don't care about any of that. Any old USB hub will work too, but you should always use a powered done. The USB Board is only if you want it all in a nice little case.

Yeah, I just want 1 controller so I got a little converter. It's quite frustrating to not be able to use anything other than the PS4 controller and also have audio issues, though. I haven't decided what I want to do with it. I'm very tempted to give up on it and just use real hardware, especially since I don't have converters to use real controllers on the MiSTer.

[seastalker]

I got my Blisster board and installed it!

Please ignore the text on the USB 3.0 picture. I read above that this connects to the IO board. So the Blisster only FULLY works if you also have the IO board? I take it I can connect the Bliss box adapters to use original controllers, but if I want lag free, I need the IO board and plug that USB3.0 wire's other end to it. Maybe I missed that requirement in the documentation. 

 

I do think the Blisster board's cardboard picture insert it came with should include a note about powering and the included cables if I were to be nitpicky.  Am I correct in assuming I power from the wall to the BLISSTER power in, and then run the double male cable as pictured to allow power passthrough to the DE10-Nano, thus enabling BLISSTER's side power switch? If I ignored that cable and power switch, could I just run my double power cable (from my old usb hub days) as pictured and skip the BLISSTER's power output?

 

I am just being cautious not to damage anything.

[konradklaus]

2 hours ago, seastalker said:

 

 

I do think the Blisster board's cardboard picture insert it came with should include a note about powering and the included cables if I were to be nitpicky.  Am I correct in assuming I power from the wall to the BLISSTER power in, and then run the double male cable as pictured to allow power passthrough to the DE10-Nano, thus enabling BLISSTER's side power switch? If I ignored that cable and power switch, could I just run my double power cable (from my old usb hub days) as pictured and skip the BLISSTER's power output?

 

I am just being cautious not to damage anything.

 

 

 

Yeah, I agree, they should give more information.  I was a bit lost.  So you take the short double ended power cable to go from the blister output to the de-10 power, and you then put your de10 adpater into the blisster.  The serial usb cable is used if you have an IO board which I don't have, but if you have it you plug in the usb 3.0 connector into the not a usb port on the IO board.

 

Is there a cable or adapter to use the serial interface for the low latency input without an IO board?

[derFunkenstein]

PC Engine CD support is here today. Everyone who wants to play Rondo of Blood needs to get on that,  pronto. 

 

On 5/15/2020 at 7:53 AM, Cosmic Owl said:

 

There was that other spat of drama between him and Sorg a week or two ago. Any idea what that was about? I only saw the email Jotego sent after the fact and didn't see what lead up to that.

There seems like never-ending drama between him and Sorg, which is why none of his cores are in the official repo. 

[Newsdee]

19 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

Yeah, I just want 1 controller so I got a little converter. It's quite frustrating to not be able to use anything other than the PS4 controller and also have audio issues, though. I haven't decided what I want to do with it. I'm very tempted to give up on it and just use real hardware, especially since I don't have converters to use real controllers on the MiSTer.

Those limitations seem self-inflicted to me. You have an extremely wide array of USB controllers available, and if you want real original controllers, plenty of good USB adapters.

 

Audio works fine for me and most people. Are you using an SDRAM card? If not I suggest trying that first. You can get a 32MB card cheaply if cost is a concern.

 

Anyway if you are not happy, I'm sure somebody will want your DE10 if you offer it up for sale.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Newsdee

[Newsdee]

6 hours ago, konradklaus said:

Is there a cable or adapter to use the serial interface for the low latency input without an IO board?

No. The adapter is the IO Board

[Newsdee]

3 hours ago, derFunkenstein said:

PC Engine CD support is here today. Everyone who wants to play Rondo of Blood needs to get on that,  pronto. 

I'm playing that now! Looks my PCE Duo can finally just be a display piece now.

[Steven Pendleton]

9 hours ago, Newsdee said:

Those limitations seem self-inflicted to me. You have an extremely wide array of USB controllers available, and if you want real original controllers, plenty of good USB adapters.

 

Audio works fine for me and most people. Are you using an SDRAM card? If not I suggest trying that first. You can get a 32MB card cheaply if cost is a concern.

 

Anyway if you are not happy, I'm sure somebody will want your DE10 if you offer it up for sale.

It is very much self-inflicted, as I'd much rather use the proper controllers with the appropriate games/systems and I also have USB versions of many of them as it is. Still, I may get the RetroPad32 for the Neo Geo controllers and various other non-MiSTer systems.

 

I have 128 RAM and IO board. I've tried removing the RAM and plugging it back in, but it didn't make a difference.

 

As for getting rid of it, I never get rid of any systems, so even if it's broken, I'll always have it unless I decide to actually return it. I don't know if I can since it's been about 4 or 5 months since I got it and I'm honestly a bit too lazy to go put it in the mail anyway...

[seastalker]

16 hours ago, Newsdee said:

I'm playing that now! Looks my PCE Duo can finally just be a display piece now.

 

Newsdee, I'm still updating my SD card and hardware wiring and haven't tried it yet. You are good to ask since you have both.  Do you feel the core is already on par witrh the real hardware like the MegaSD is for Sega CD (I haven't tried the Sega CD mister core yet)? I have a recapped PC Engine and a TG16 that is soon to be recapped. I've held off on getting Terraonion's flash cart. Though I know it is an awesome device, do you think the MiSTER core makes the Terraonion solution redundant for most? I may just keep my turbo everdrive and PC-Engine for original hardware.