Sugarland Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 5 hours ago, Rybags said: I never knew of the 800D or Collette - note that as part of cost reduction the right cartridge slot seems to be gone. Can't agree re the planned 400 with no keyboard or SIO - IMO that'd have reduced the BOM by maybe 40 bucks and they'd still have had an overpriced console - OK, maybe 4K RAM instead of 8 could have reduced it by nearer to $100 (but in any case a SIO-less Atari computer would be somewhat useless). But you do have to wonder that given the FCC regs were relaxed so early in the computer's life, why didn't they do a cost reduced revision with less shielding? A cheaper third tier machine console-styled machine would have been a great idea, imo. The 400 itself should have had a real keyboard (the membrane was oft hated even though it was a good idea). Someone (marketing?) underestimated the usefulness/importance of the 'computer' side of the machine. Seems to be a compromise between a game console and a computer. The 400 has something of an identity crisis in that regard, I guess. My idea of the 400 would be: Recessed edge connector SIO for cost reduction A better keyboard but not as good as the 800's. Chicklet or rubber keys or something like that. Perhaps the same size as the membrane. Upgradeable from day 1 to 48K to help the software library adopt 48K. Connectors mostly on the back, not the side Two joystick ports for cost reduction Composite video Also why not have all carts be able have at least 32K addressable. 16K is limited. I love that 800D! Also had never heard of it. Needs stereo output with second pokey. Needs only one RS232C port and a parallel. Also having higher RAM upgrade options would be nice. The bus connector needs to be on the back and covered of course like the 800XL. The XL series should have added some new graphics modes and other features, like stereo. Maybe call those XLE for XL Expanded. Watching the video helped me to realize how the A8 line did stagnate. We got new models, but not improvements. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 1 hour ago, _The Doctor__ said: Actually I think it would be a smashing success to have the developer board reproduced. I agree with Curt that is would have made the Atari the more venerable computer. Leaving the bus edge accessible at the back would have kept the 800 well ahead of the curve. Why not expose the world to just what the 800 really was? Not just the watered down version that made it's way to market... It's an easy enough thing to do... I think an 800 A+ version with the developer side board and exposed expansion buss is well overdue... combined with an incognito this would be the ultimate Atari Retro Re-issue. It sure would be a nice upgrade path for existing units in an event... Don't you just love that image? 800 A+ tech has already arrived, and here are the proven, tested plans for how it could be done. Just need someone to layout the motherboard in whatever form you'd like it to be, and add whatever else you'd like it to have. For instance to mimic the 800D, all that would be needed is to add a bus driven RS232 serial and parallel printer interface, because bus expansion already exists. And to tell you the truth the tech I am talking about, and is outlined in the pdf that I linked to, is already way past the 800D design. Sure back in the day much of what Atari was doing was considered state of the art, now it's more down to earth and simply a logical progression of where the 8-bit line should have gone. But it's time for me to take a step back and let others take over. So for those that are game, this is the moment to stop wishing, and start doing . Doesn't matter if you've never done this sort of thing before. Because at one time I didn't know jack shit about electronics, computers, or PCB design. I also never graduated from high school, never went to college, and didn't have much money to my name, but somehow I figured it all out... go figure. You've probably heard this before, but the only way anything gets accomplished is by someone picking up the ball and running with it. So I'll set the ball down now... who's going to pick it up? Also let's not forget what foft has been creating in parallel, a truly next generation design for those that want to leave the old silicon behind. This truly is a great time to be an Atarian ? . 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tickled_Pink Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 I somehow always envisioned Curt as somewhat overweight with glasses. Guy looks fitter than me by some margin. ? He just made me want a 400, strip it out, make a new case and turn it into a console. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 He just made me want a 400, strip it out, make a new case and turn it into a console. I've always seen the 400 as more like a console. The keyboard is just good enough to get by for games; and I think it's a great little machine for that, just like it is. The full-stroke add-on keyboards were available if you wanted to take it up a notch. Sent from my UL40 using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 50 minutes ago, Tickled_Pink said: I somehow always envisioned Curt as somewhat overweight with glasses. Guy looks fitter than me by some margin. ? Yeah what's with that guy?!?! He still looks pretty much the same as he did 16 years ago when I last saw him in person. Such a great guy, and a fantastic presenter ? . But watching that video makes me want to locate his house and sneak in to see all the wonderful Atari goodies he has. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACML Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 (edited) 22 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said: more of these were made and out there than you think I had one BITD. Don't remember where I acquired it. Back then I assumed it was just the first run of the 850, much like the Japanese original metal handled 410s. I took minor issue with two statements that Curt made. 1) The original 410 was more robust and reliable than the Hong Kong 410s that followed. He had that backwards. 2) The 400 as a computer, crappy keyboard and all, is the reason I was able to obtain one in 1981. If the 800, Apple II and TRS-80 were the only options, I'd still be tinkering with the 2600. The $400 Atari 400 with 16K RAM, BASIC and 410 was at the right price at the right time. Edited August 8, 2019 by ACML 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmigaBill Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 I am really glad everyone liked the video. Thanks for the kind words. I am an Amiga guy (surprise) but the 800 was my first computer and I absolutely love it as well as the XL line. I am getting back into Atari and have been enjoying the SDRIVE-MAX that Bill Lange built for me. I still have my original 800 and 800XL. Curt's display was amazing and I am so glad he took the time to speak with us. I was really trying to show our Amiga audience that the Atari 400/800 was in many ways the predecessor to the Amiga. Lots of folks do know that, but many don't. It is such a cool machine and I know they enjoyed seeing it as well as Curt's amazing collection. Curt and Anthony did a great job relating it to Amiga as well with Jay Miner, Joe Decuir, the custom chips, etc... That ERIC kiosk was really incredible and drew people over the the exhibit in droves. It was literally like stepping back in time. It was very immersive. Thanks again, and I plan on stopping by here more frequently. AMIGA&ATARI4EVER 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Worley Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 (edited) As brilliant a product as the Incognito seems to be, it is not obtainable anywhere. I'm a little mystified about that. The 800 had a lot going for it, we always envied its keyboard, the ruggedness of the case design, the flexibility of card slots, and the clarity of the video output. It wasn't until the XE machines came along that Atari again began to approach that video output. If the Incognito was available at or near the costpoint of the Ultimate 1M upgrade they ought to be flying off the shelves. Instead they aren't being produced and we are reduced to talking about it. Atari 1090 anyone? Sound familiar? ** TNM ** /s Edited August 8, 2019 by Technoid Mutant Typos 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 20 minutes ago, Technoid Mutant said: As brilliant a product as the Incognito seems to be, it is not obtainable anywhere. I'm a little mystified about that. The 800 had a lot going for it, we always envied its keyboard, the ruggedness of the case design, the flexibility of card slots, and the clarity of the video output. It wasn't until the XE machines came along that Atari again began to approach that video output. If the Incognito was available at or near the costpoint of the Ultimate 1M upgrade they ought to be flying off the shelves. Instead they aren't being produced and we are reduced to talking about it. Atari 1090 anyone? Sound familiar? ** TNM ** /s The good thing is that an Incognito on eBay will match or surpass U.S. $250.00 (just the board alone). Match that with a pristine, collection-grade 800, and you will have not just the the boss of the lineup, but a pretty valuable combo. In the market. In other words: scarcity of Incognito is driving up value of 800! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Worley Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 One thing to be said about the 400 keyboard is that it WORKED and kept working. The only problem is wearing the keys through with your fingernails, and I've only seen one of those in all these years. The 400 keyboard LOOKS cheap, the 'feel' is aweful, but the thing has the durability of an ATM keypad. ** TNM ** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 One thing to be said about the 400 keyboard is that it WORKED and kept working. The only problem is wearing the keys through with your fingernails, and I've only seen one of those in all these years. The 400 keyboard LOOKS cheap, the 'feel' is aweful, but the thing has the durability of an ATM keypad. I love the look and feel of the stock 400 keyboard, but for light to moderate use in games only. It's more than adequate for that task; and I find the stock system charming, in both looks and design. Sent from my UL40 using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+slx Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 20 hours ago, Rybags said: Can't agree re the planned 400 with no keyboard or SIO - IMO that'd have reduced the BOM by maybe 40 bucks and they'd still have had an overpriced console - OK, maybe 4K RAM instead of 8 could have reduced it by nearer to $100 (but in any case a SIO-less Atari computer would be somewhat useless). Had the 400 become or would it at least have been marketed as a console (as originally intended) it would probably have replaced the VCS and would have allowed Atari to reign undisputed in the video game realm for a longer time. The VCS would not have endured until 92 next to Candy and the 400/800 architecture would have enjoyed a much larger user base with game console sales. (Remember the Atari marketing execs being attached to the VCS because of the profits it made? A ‚premium‘ console could have made higher profits and wean them from the VCS.) I remember reading that Star Raiders was a consideration when deciding for the keyboard on the 400, which makes this game even more connected to the fate of the Atari 8-bits. Whether that would have been good for the computer line is highly speculative as many programmers started out on 400s and even with a keyboard attachment a SIO-less Candy would not have sufficed to write e.g. Caverns of Mars. Many kids started programming on 400s and their parents would not have afforded or thought it reasonable to spend on an 800. An improved 800 would have been a great and a CR version might have made it easier to compete with Commodore. A great video and thanks to Curt for the setup and presentation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xrbrevin Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 4 hours ago, MrFish said: I love the look and feel of the stock 400 keyboard me too - the colours are just so very '70s! it really augments the retro experience Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 12 hours ago, ACML said: 1) The original 410 was more robust and reliable than the Hong Kong 410s that followed. He had that backwards. I'll vouch for that. My 410 I had as a kid (Hong Kong) died after being stored for many years (I'm guessing the belt melted). I've had two more come through my hands over the years and they all didn't work. However my original model 410 has been going strong all these years and still works perfectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 10 hours ago, Faicuai said: The good thing is that an Incognito on eBay will match or surpass U.S. $250.00 (just the board alone). Match that with a pristine, collection-grade 800, and you will have not just the the boss of the lineup, but a pretty valuable combo. In the market. In other words: scarcity of Incognito is driving up value of 800! Wish I had never sold mine. I have a minty 800 sitting here ready to go for when the Incognito 2 comes out (if ever). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 5 hours ago, Tempest said: Wish I had never sold mine. I have a minty 800 sitting here ready to go for when the Incognito 2 comes out (if ever). Keep that sweet, minty boss... minty! I believe Incognito-X should come out eventually... Once out, prepare to experience and enjoy that 800 like you have never seen before! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beamer320i Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 The 400 was my first ever computer, I wanted something more powerful than the 2600 and the 800 was waaay out of financial reach for my parents but I was lucky enough to receive a 400 in June 1983 for my tenth birthday! (my uncle had an 800 since October 1982 so had planted the seed!) It was my stepping stone into the world of Atari and I am forever grateful to that little 16k bundle of joy (and my parents!) for hours of gaming, BASIC programming, etc etc. Regarding the 410 models, I also find the earlier Japanese carry-handle model far superior to the 410P Honk Kong variants. Superior build quality, easier to service and most of all, more reliable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Philsan Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 7 hours ago, Tempest said: Wish I had never sold mine. I have a minty 800 sitting here ready to go for when the Incognito 2 comes out (if ever). https://lotharek.pl/productdetail.php?id=275 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 What's the FJC firmware do? The links don't seem to want to work on my phone. Does this mean the Incognito 2 is dead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Philsan Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 Link to version with FJC firmware installed:https://lotharek.pl/productdetail.php?id=276FJC firmware infos:https://atari8.co.uk/firmware/incognito/Nowadays everyone uses FJC firmware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Worley Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 On 8/6/2019 at 10:14 PM, _The Doctor__ said: more of these were made and out there than you think I've never seen the metal-enclosed version, though I knew of it. The standard beige version was made in the zillions. Funny thing though, it was something of an oddity in that they never printed a manual for it, through all those zillions of units every one shipped with a photocopied manual. ** TNM ** 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 On 8/6/2019 at 10:14 PM, _The Doctor__ said: more of these were made and out there than you think You know this how? Speak up - if you have one to sell, I have money to send:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClausB Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 At the show I took close-ups of Collette with a crummy phone camera. Chip side came out OK but solder side not so much. Interesting that the LS42 is bodged underneath. That's the chip that creates the 8K ROM and RAM select signals in the 800 and 400. Also there are two 1K resistors for RD5 and RD4. Did they forget about those when laying out the board, or did they try an alternate circuit which failed? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenames99 Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 On 8/7/2019 at 7:55 PM, Jeffrey Worley said: As brilliant a product as the Incognito seems to be, it is not obtainable anywhere. I'm a little mystified about that. The 800 had a lot going for it, we always envied its keyboard, the ruggedness of the case design, the flexibility of card slots, and the clarity of the video output. It wasn't until the XE machines came along that Atari again began to approach that video output. If the Incognito was available at or near the costpoint of the Ultimate 1M upgrade they ought to be flying off the shelves. Instead they aren't being produced and we are reduced to talking about it. Atari 1090 anyone? Sound familiar? ** TNM ** /s the 1090 is alive and well. it is on my github and free for all to build their own. https://github.com/kenames99?tab=overview&from=2023-10-01&to=2023-10-11 I am working on a serial/parallel card currently. reifsnyderb on the 8 bit forem here has done a number of cards and modifications to it. the mods he did were to bring the 130XE into spec for the 1090XL. Ken 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClausB Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, ClausB said: Also there are two 1K resistors for RD5 and RD4. Correction: There are two 680 Ohm resistors for RD4&5 near the LS32 on the chip side, just like the 800. Not sure what the 1Ks are for. Edited November 25, 2023 by ClausB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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