Incognito - Now's your chance!

[flashjazzcat]

Just now, Gunstar said:

Is there any reason why SiDE 2 cartridges can't be made with a pass-through cart port (and MyIDE II for that matter) to solve the issues of physical cart blockage?

The presence of the Compact Flash slot probably presents the biggest obstacle, since it's situated where the pass-thru would logically be positioned. Put the CF slot anywhere but the top of the cart and it becomes fairly useless on a 1200XL, for instance. There's nothing to stop you using a cart breakout adapter with SIDE, however, with a couple of caveats. Firstly: the 'ATR swap button' functionality depends on the left cart ROM window being completely deactivated, which is the reason the feature can be turned off (and the 'SIDE Cart ROM' explicitly enabled) to enable use of ebiguy's SIDE OSS cart ROMs. But any other cartridge ROM (even if not hosted on the SIDE cart itself) would be subject to the same restriction, so you'd have to turn the ATR swap button off. The second problem is that you couldn't use an 8Mbit flash cart in this fashion, since the very act of writing to the SIDE cart's IDE registers will shut off the flash cart ROM. Many other carts will work, however, so just get yourself a dual-slot cart adapter, turn off the ATR swap button, and you're good.

[_The Doctor__]

ATR swap button, so useful !! and sadly the bane of much existence...  bitter sweet...

[flashjazzcat]

Of whose existence is it the bane? It turns right off. Hardly a traumatic undertaking.

Edited October 7, 2019 by flashjazzcat

[Gunstar]

1 hour ago, flashjazzcat said:

The presence of the Compact Flash slot probably presents the biggest obstacle, since it's situated where the pass-thru would logically be positioned. Put the CF slot anywhere but the top of the cart and it becomes fairly useless on a 1200XL, for instance. There's nothing to stop you using a cart breakout adapter with SIDE, however, with a couple of caveats. Firstly: the 'ATR swap button' functionality depends on the left cart ROM window being completely deactivated, which is the reason the feature can be turned off (and the 'SIDE Cart ROM' explicitly enabled) to enable use of ebiguy's SIDE OSS cart ROMs. But any other cartridge ROM (even if not hosted on the SIDE cart itself) would be subject to the same restriction, so you'd have to turn the ATR swap button off. The second problem is that you couldn't use an 8Mbit flash cart in this fashion, since the very act of writing to the SIDE cart's IDE registers will shut off the flash cart ROM. Many other carts will work, however, so just get yourself a dual-slot cart adapter, turn off the ATR swap button, and you're good.

I see. Purely curiosity on my part, the only cartridges I ever need while using MyIDE II or SiDE 2 are the OSS carts, and now there is a solution to that for both. The ATR thing wouldn't bother me anyway; I only ever use MyIDE II (or SiDE 2/U1MB when I get them) for HDD and/or Fat32 for .xex's. If it's an ATR, I still make and use real floppies for that. I've never even attempted to load an ATR from my MyIDE II cart. No need for a dual slot adapter for me, I don't mind unplugging mass storage carts when I want to use a standard cartridge.

 

But having a pass-thru and the CF card mounted elsewhere wouldn't bother me either, even with my 1200XL, as I have Dropcheck's cart extender and SSDX cart with pass-thru. Now my 800, of course, is a different story with the cartridge door, but the Incognito will solve any issues there. But that might be a good reason, for future revisions, to move to micro SD cards as both a slot for it and a pass-thru could easily fit at the end of a cartridge; even if you had to remove the cartridge on the pass-thru to access the SD card. It would allow the cartridges to fit inside an 800 with the door shut too (something I can't do with MyIDE II cart, I have to leave the door open because the CF card sticks up too high)

Edited October 7, 2019 by Gunstar

[flashjazzcat]

43 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

The ATR thing wouldn't bother me anyway; I only ever use MyIDE II (or SiDE 2/U1MB when I get them) for HDD and/or Fat32 for .xex's.

That's what I figured when choosing to repurpose the hitherto redundant SIDE ROM. You can still mount ATRs anyway with the button off; you just lose the rotation feature.

45 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

I've never even attempted to load an ATR from my MyIDE II cart.

Me neither, because SIDE2/U1MB exists.

[Gunstar]

I might have tried loading ATR's with MyIDE II, if they ran straight from the FAT32, but my understanding was that even though the ATR's are placed in the Fat32 partition it still required booting with MyBIOS and MyDOS somehow to activate the feature which seemed far too convoluted and obtuse for me to ever want to try since I'd rarely, if ever, use it anyway (once I first tried a straight load from the FAT32 which didn't work). But even with SiDE 2/U1MB I don't intend to ever try until I can't get floppies anymore. I may try it with SDrive-max if I ever get back around to try getting it up and running again. I may give it a shot loading ATR's when I get my Incognito, if I can use it in conjunction with real floppy drives for multiple disk/drive software. But as long as I have multiple disk drives and floppies, I won't ever use it regularly, no matter the device.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Gunstar

[flashjazzcat]

Don't be put off by the rigmarole of MYIDE2. U1MB/SIDE is much easier and more functional. Real floppies are cool, but I don't much care to use them when backing up a 32MB HDD partition. A 32MB ATR hosted in a FAT partition is rather useful then, since you can back up the whole partition in around twenty minutes, then copy the resulting ATR straight to your PC.

 

FAT-hosted ATRs can be used alongside real floppies, anyway, behave transparently regardless of OS, don't have to occupy fixed 'slots' on the HDD media, and outperform the fastest possible serial IO speeds by some margin.

Edited October 7, 2019 by flashjazzcat

[+DrVenkman]

3 hours ago, Tempest said:

Any update on this?  Are they still on track to be released on the 10th?

From Lotharek's project page today:

 

 

That hasn't changed since I checked it about 2 weeks ago.

[Gunstar]

The same as two months ago. But it says after 10-10, so don't start holding your breath for shipping to begin! Hopefully we'll hear something, one way or the other, in a few days.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Gunstar

[Jeffrey Worley]

6 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

I see you have a hybrid NTSC-50 machine there (PAL ANTIC)... I hope.

 

Yeah, that's a friend/customer's machine.  The U1MB was one of the first shipped and needed the low-level firmware updated.  It was something of a mission, required the aquisition of the Xylinix cable and learning some new software tools.  It works fine now.  Dig the VBXE.  It is installed, but with no video out.  Why would anyone DO that?  I got it all working.  The photos are on the Atari 8-bit computers facebook page.  Are you there?  Also my own facebook page.  I was real excited at the killer output of the VBXE.  I shot the innards as well.   I convinced the client to toss the Pal Antic.  It caused a glitch with the video converter.  With an NTSC gtia and NTSC Antic, the video is rock solid and beautiful.  Hey, is there any reason why the VBXE can't just BE Pal whenever you tell it to, and the BE NTSC when you tell it to?  It has a whole lotta control.  It would be very cool if a firmware update would swap systems for you, so those neato 'Peen demos and games run great over here.

 

Jeff

[Jeffrey Worley]

5 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

Don't be put off by the rigmarole of MYIDE2. U1MB/SIDE is much easier and more functional. Real floppies are cool, but I don't much care to use them when backing up a 32MB HDD partition. A 32MB ATR hosted in a FAT partition is rather useful then, since you can back up the whole partition in around twenty minutes, then copy the resulting ATR straight to your PC.

 

FAT-hosted ATRs can be used alongside real floppies, anyway, behave transparently regardless of OS, don't have to occupy fixed 'slots' on the HDD media, and outperform the fastest possible serial IO speeds by some margin.

I have recently moves some serious data with the SIde2/U1MB.  The throughput is just staggering.  One thing I can see being useful is the ability to run two CF/SD cards at the same time on the Side2.  The reason being that I find it difficult to make backups/copies of the data.  Moving it on the pc is ok, except that digging into the SDFS filesystem is problematic from a pc.  If there were two sd cards hanging off the side, one could copy from one to the other.....  Right now, my solution is SIO2PCUSB (using AtariSIO for my server app).  That works, but it is INFINITELY slower than the superfast Side2.

 

best,

 

Jeff

[flashjazzcat]

4 hours ago, Technoid Mutant said:

The U1MB was one of the first shipped and needed the low-level firmware updated

Yes: I read this immediately above the photograph.

4 hours ago, Technoid Mutant said:

The photos are on the Atari 8-bit computers facebook page.  Are you there?

I'm all over the place, but unfortunately only in one place at a time.  It's entirely possible the photos passed my eyes previously.

4 hours ago, Technoid Mutant said:

Hey, is there any reason why the VBXE can't just BE Pal whenever you tell it to, and the BE NTSC when you tell it to?

Modern VBXEs have both master crystals on the board, and you can select PAL or NTSC with a jumper.

2 hours ago, Technoid Mutant said:

One thing I can see being useful is the ability to run two CF/SD cards at the same time on the Side2.  The reason being that I find it difficult to make backups/copies of the data.

A 1088XEL with XEL-CF is just what you need. The U1MB firmware supports dual physical CF cards, and you may freely mount partitions and ATRs from both and copy between them.

[Jeffrey Worley]

7 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

Yes: I read this immediately above the photograph.

I'm all over the place, but unfortunately only in one place at a time.  It's entirely possible the photos passed my eyes previously.

Modern VBXEs have both master crystals on the board, and you can select PAL or NTSC with a jumper.

A 1088XEL with XEL-CF is just what you need. The U1MB firmware supports dual physical CF cards, and you may freely mount partitions and ATRs from both and copy between them.

This XEL-CF thingie looks interesting.  Is there any reason why the Side2 wouldn't do this if I ran a header cable to two IDE-CF converter boards with one configured as master and the other as slave?  Or if I got one of those cf cards with two slots for SD cards?  I've wondered since first seeing the thing, how fully ide the Side2 is.  CF is basically an eensie-ified IDE, so there should be a host of peripherals possible on the thing (pardon the pun).  Removing the cartridge case would make plugging in a cable header pretty simple, then put it all back together with the ribbon sticking out of the top.  Could it run regular ide notebook drives this way?  Might be a fun thing to do.

 

Best,

 

Jeff

[Jeffrey Worley]

7 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

Yes: I read this immediately above the photograph.

I'm all over the place, but unfortunately only in one place at a time.  It's entirely possible the photos passed my eyes previously.

Modern VBXEs have both master crystals on the board, and you can select PAL or NTSC with a jumper.

A 1088XEL with XEL-CF is just what you need. The U1MB firmware supports dual physical CF cards, and you may freely mount partitions and ATRs from both and copy between them.

My buddy with the VBXE was using a Pal Antic on that machine.  He must have a pretty nice monitor or converter to tolerate NTSC/50 or Pal/60, or whatever that mix of chips produces.  I convinced him to go with an NTSC Antic for this machine, but would like to resolve the Pal problem for us 'Mericans.  I strongly suspect, but wish to be wrong, that the Pal/NTSC jumper on the U1MB won't work right in Pal mode on an NTSC machine with NTCS Gtia and Antic chips installed.

 

I saw the video you posted, side-grading an NTSC 800xl to PAL.  The fact of the video kinda beggars the idea of a plug-in PAL-erizer VBXE, but maybe I'm wrong?

 

Jeff

[flashjazzcat]

1 hour ago, Technoid Mutant said:

Is there any reason why the Side2 wouldn't do this if I ran a header cable to two IDE-CF converter boards with one configured as master and the other as slave?

I have no idea. It all depends on the availability of the device select signal. SIDE can safely ignore this bit since it was only ever designed to support one physical disk (CF card), and no SIDE driver exists to drive such nonexistent hardware.

1 hour ago, Technoid Mutant said:

Or if I got one of those cf cards with two slots for SD cards?

The adapters I've seen appear to spread a single volume across two SD cards.

1 hour ago, Technoid Mutant said:

I've wondered since first seeing the thing, how fully ide the Side2 is

Wonder no more: it is as 'IDE' as they come. The lack of master/slave functionality does not make the ATA protocol any less the ATA protocol.

 

I have to say that the more I read about dual CF card adapters, the more I understand why successful master/slave operation on the XEL-CF can be a hit-and-miss affair unless you get the choice of media just right. There is a widely held belief that CF cards generally do not play well together when paired up in this manner. I've enjoyed reliable operation using a pair of 4GB Sandisk Cards, but combining - for example - a CF card with a CF/SD adapter or using a pair of SD/CF adapters (despite the fact that the recommended SD/CF adapter works very well in a single-disk configuration with an XEL-CF or SIDE2) tends to result in nothing but problems.

 

As previously mentioned: where a dual CF adapter is unavailable, one may (on an U1MB-equipped system) simply mount a 32MB ATR and perform a raw sector copy between that and an APT partition in the space of about twenty minutes. While I have done this, I have never yet had occasion to use the 1088XEL to copy the entire contents of the master disk to the slave. Such cloning operations - though possible - are probably better accomplished using a PC.

51 minutes ago, Technoid Mutant said:

I strongly suspect, but wish to be wrong, that the Pal/NTSC jumper on the U1MB won't work right in Pal mode on an NTSC machine with NTCS Gtia and Antic chips installed.

You'll be pleased to hear that you're wrong, but only by virtue of the fact there is no PAL/NTSC jumper on the U1MB. Unless you mean the PAL/NTSC jumper on modern VBXEs equipped with both crystals, but even in that case, the jumper definitely works since it switches between a PAL master clock frequency and NTSC master clock frequency. RGB video is the same regardless of whether the machine has a PAL or NTSC GTIA. The only difference is in the frame rate and the number of scan lines. S-video and composite are a different matter: the GTIA colourburst clock has to be correct otherwise many monitors will simply display no colour. If the display device fails to produce colour when connected to a PAL-60 or NTSC-50 Atari, it's because the display cannot understand the hybrid signal. The VBXE pictured is of the older variety, of course, and only has one crystal, which I assume to be NTSC. To fix the 'PAL problem', you'd need to replace that crystal with the PAL part.

51 minutes ago, Technoid Mutant said:

I saw the video you posted, side-grading an NTSC 800xl to PAL.  The fact of the video kinda beggars the idea of a plug-in PAL-erizer VBXE, but maybe I'm wrong?

I think many things are being misunderstood here. VBXE provides the master clock signal when present. Depending on the jumper position (or which crystal is soldered to the board, if there is no jumper), the master clock frequency for a PAL or NTSC machine will be emitted. NTSC machines require no secondary clock for GTIA, since the NTSC colour carrier precisely relates to the NTSC master clock frequency. PAL is different, since there is no direct correlation between the two; hence the extra circuitry on PAL machines. That extra circuit has nothing whatsoever to do with VBXE in any sense other than VBXE must be emitting the correct master clock frequency, which can be only one of two possibilities: PAL or NTSC.

 

If a machine has VBXE and you want to make it PAL but don't care about anything but the RGB, you can simply jumper VBXE for the PAL clock, and swap out ANTIC for a PAL equivalent. S-video and composite output will be all kinds of messed up, but the RGB picture will run at 50 FPS and will have the correct PAL aspect ratio. U1MB will report the machine as NTSC-50 unless you swap GTIA, in which case it will be reported as PAL-50.

Edited October 8, 2019 by flashjazzcat

[Jeffrey Worley]

4 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

I have no idea. It all depends on the availability of the device select signal. SIDE can safely ignore this bit since it was only ever designed to support one physical disk (CF card), and no SIDE driver exists to drive such nonexistent hardware.

The adapters I've seen appear to spread a single volume across two SD cards.

Wonder no more: it is as 'IDE' as they come. The lack of master/slave functionality does not make the ATA protocol any less the ATA protocol.

 

I have to say that the more I read about dual CF card adapters, the more I understand why successful master/slave operation on the XEL-CF can be a hit-and-miss affair unless you get the choice of media just right. There is a widely held belief that CF cards generally do not play well together when paired up in this manner. I've enjoyed reliable operation using a pair of 4GB Sandisk Cards, but combining - for example - a CF card with a CF/SD adapter or using a pair of SD/CF adapters (despite the fact that the recommended SD/CF adapter works very well in a single-disk configuration with an XEL-CF or SIDE2) tends to result in nothing but problems.

 

As previously mentioned: where a dual CF adapter is unavailable, one may (on an U1MB-equipped system) simply mount a 32MB ATR and perform a raw sector copy between that and an APT partition in the space of about twenty minutes. While I have done this, I have never yet had occasion to use the 1088XEL to copy the entire contents of the master disk to the slave. Such cloning operations - though possible - are probably better accomplished using a PC.

You'll be pleased to hear that you're wrong, but only by virtue of the fact there is no PAL/NTSC jumper on the U1MB. Unless you mean the PAL/NTSC jumper on modern VBXEs equipped with both crystals, but even in that case, the jumper definitely works since it switches between a PAL master clock frequency and NTSC master clock frequency. RGB video is the same regardless of whether the machine has a PAL or NTSC GTIA. The only difference is in the frame rate and the number of scan lines. S-video and composite are a different matter: the GTIA colourburst clock has to be correct otherwise many monitors will simply display no colour. If the display device fails to produce colour when connected to a PAL-60 or NTSC-50 Atari, it's because the display cannot understand the hybrid signal. The VBXE pictured is of the older variety, of course, and only has one crystal, which I assume to be NTSC. To fix the 'PAL problem', you'd need to replace that crystal with the PAL part.

I think many things are being misunderstood here. VBXE provides the master clock signal when present. Depending on the jumper position (or which crystal is soldered to the board, if there is no jumper), the master clock frequency for a PAL or NTSC machine will be emitted. NTSC machines require no secondary clock for GTIA, since the NTSC colour carrier precisely relates to the NTSC master clock frequency. PAL is different, since there is no direct correlation between the two; hence the extra circuitry on PAL machines. That extra circuit has nothing whatsoever to do with VBXE in any sense other than VBXE must be emitting the correct master clock frequency, which can be only one of two possibilities: PAL or NTSC.

 

If a machine has VBXE and you want to make it PAL but don't care about anything but the RGB, you can simply jumper VBXE for the PAL clock, and swap out ANTIC for a PAL equivalent. S-video and composite output will be all kinds of messed up, but the RGB picture will run at 50 FPS and will have the correct PAL aspect ratio. U1MB will report the machine as NTSC-50 unless you swap GTIA, in which case it will be reported as PAL-50.

This adapter, claims to support I/O model, storage model, and ide model. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07919JWZG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

I'll mail you one if it sounds like it might work as two cards and you want  to play with it.

 

Best,

 

Jeff

[flashjazzcat]

9 minutes ago, Technoid Mutant said:

I'll mail you one if it sounds like it might work as two cards and you want  to play with it.

Thanks: It's kind of you, but as I understand it (and have read elsewhere), the two SD cards function thus:

Quote

Note:

1. The micro-SD must be insert to Card-1 if you use the single card. the Card-2 cannot work separately.

2. Support dual micro-SD card. You need format it by computer & CF card reader first.

3. You need to re-format the micro-sd card if you change dual to single card (or single to dual card). The data will be lost.

4. The capacity will be increase if you use the same micro-SD card. (like 64G+64G=128G).

5. The capacity will be decrease if you use the difference micro-SD card. (like 64G+16G=16G).

6. Support Daul 64G card max.

So very far from master/slave operation by the looks of it.

 

[Jeffrey Worley]

1 minute ago, flashjazzcat said:

Thanks: It's kind of you, but as I understand it (and have read elsewhere), the two SD cards function thus:

So very far from master/slave operation by the looks of it.

 

Hmm.  So it spans two cards, which is neat in its way, but not what I'd like it to do.  Bummer

 

Jeff

[_The Doctor__]

If you are going to use two CF cards / or CFtoSD adapters in that two CF card set up... look up TRUE IDE adapters and kludges... there are many that support true master slave operation... they just aren't the 89 cent china variety... but are still cheap enough and are often common adaptions with different firmware and/or hardware modification... remember also CF pinout is pretty much IDE already... with the correct cabling a number of things are possible...

While not the exact device I have used in this application check out how this one gets around limitations on certain operating systems and drivers...

http://wiki.icomp.de/wiki/TrueIDE

drastically increased the useable CF card base... solved some partitioning issues...

this should help you on your quest...

Edited October 8, 2019 by _The Doctor__

[Jeffrey Worley]

17 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

If you are going to use two CF cards / or CFtoSD adapters in that two CF card set up... look up TRUE IDE adapters and kludges... there are many that support true master slave operation... they just aren't the 89 cent china variety... but are still cheap enough and are often common adaptions with different firmware and/or hardware modification... remember also CF pinout is pretty much IDE already... with the correct cabling a number of things are possible...

While not the exact device I have used in this application check out how this one gets around limitations on certain operating systems and drivers...

http://wiki.icomp.de/wiki/TrueIDE

drastically increased the useable CF card base... solved some partitioning issues...

this should help you on your quest...

Speaking of Incognito, I just got mail from Lotharek.  My five boards are shipping.  I should have them sometime later this month.  Woot!

 

Jeff

[+skr]

10 hours ago, Technoid Mutant said:

Speaking of Incognito, I just got mail from Lotharek.  My five boards are shipping.  I should have them sometime later this month.  Woot!

 

Jeff

Got that mail, too. So mine (only one  ) is on the way, too.

[Jeffrey Worley]

12 hours ago, Technoid Mutant said:

Speaking of Incognito, I just got mail from Lotharek.  My five boards are shipping.  I should have them sometime later this month.  Woot!

 

Jeff

Ooops, only two of the five so far.  I did two orders.  First I ordered two, and then a couple of weeks later I got a check from a customer for fixing some really expensive ceiling fans and wiring a whole lotta pool lighst.  The check was exactly what three Incognito cost, so I invested.  I plan to upgrade all five of these 800's, keep at least one for me me me, and sell or trade the others.  Once I have upgraded (four of the five 800's are in great shape now, one is missing a couple of parts)  machines I can swear to, I'll let the group know.  I'll entertain all kinds of swaps, so we'll see.  I've already gotten several CF card adapters and 16gig sd cards for those adapters, so the machines will come turn-key, just plug it in and boot and play.

 

Best,

 

Jeff

Edited October 10, 2019 by Technoid Mutant

[Gunstar]

Yep, I got mail! My Incognito is ready to ship, 8-15 days estimated arrival. "I love it when a plan comes together"-Hannibal, The A-Team.

 

Thanks to all who are involved and congrats to Lotharek for keeping on schedule! @flashjazzcat Jon, you'll have a $30 donation coming your way within the month, thanks again for all the great software and firmware.?

Edited October 10, 2019 by Gunstar

[Justin Payne]

No email yet but since others are getting em, that's a good sign.

[elmer]

3 hours ago, Technoid Mutant said:

I plan to upgrade all five of these 800's, keep at least one for me me me, and sell or trade the others.  Once I have upgraded (four of the five 800's are in great shape now, one is missing a couple of parts)  machines I can swear to, I'll let the group know.  I'll entertain all kinds of swaps, so we'll see.

 

Ooooh ... that might be tempting, whenever you're ready!

 

I also got the shipping email for my one Incognito order ... but I don't currently own an Atari 800 yet (since I foolishly sold my original one back in the 1990s), and I'm not confident of my soldering skills anymore.