Incognito - Now's your chance!

[Gunstar]

5 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

It seems to me that the name is perfectly descriptive:

So - essentially - Incognito gives you an upgraded XL/XE which looks just like an 800. Meanwhile, I have several XL/XE machines with VBXE, U1MB, etc, and they all still look like XL/XE machines.

 

Of course, once you have produced the successor to Incognito, you have every right to call it what you like.

 

Yes, I'm quite aware of what incognito means, and you are supporting my point that your/my XL/XE upgraded machines still look the same on the outside, they are also incognito, even though the upgrades go far beyond stock just like Incognito does with the 800.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Gunstar

[Almerian]

8 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

This 'i' prefix/suffix stuff... It's not an Apple device.

 

Just like an Apple is not a Panasonic device.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Almerian
Clarity

[Jeffrey Worley]

6 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

This 'i' prefix/suffix stuff... It's not an Apple device.

It seems to me that the name is perfectly descriptive:

"Identity" here being key. Outwardly, the Incognito machine looks like an Atari 800, but wait... when running in XL/XE mode, it is (almost) functionally identical to an XL/XE. Moreover, even this alternate identity can be cloaked when the Incognito is in "Colleen" mode (the machine then operates like a stock or RAM upgraded 800).

 

So - essentially - Incognito gives you an upgraded XL/XE which looks just like an 800. Meanwhile, I have several XL/XE machines with VBXE, U1MB, etc, and they all still look like XL/XE machines.

 

Of course, once you have produced the successor to Incognito, you have every right to call it what you like.

The name is apt, but a bit cerebral for the American market.

 

[flashjazzcat]

Just now, Gunstar said:

and your proving my point that your/my XL/XE upgraded machines still look the same on the outside, they are also incognito

Erm... yeah. If you follow the point of my argument, the XL/XE machine would need to have an Atari 800 motherboard inside of it. There's more to something being 'Incognito' than there being a layer of plastic covering it.

1 minute ago, Technoid Mutant said:

The name is apt, but a bit cerebral for the American market.

Well, for a couple of them.

[Gunstar]

9 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

Erm... yeah. If you follow the point of my argument, the XL/XE machine would need to have an Atari 800 motherboard inside of it. There's more to something being 'Incognito' than there being a layer of plastic covering it.

Well, for a couple of them.

Well, I follow your point of argument, but I don't agree completely, as I don't see, IMHO, much difference in what motherboard is used, or if it plugs into a card slot instead of a socket. All that's needed in XL/XE machines is OS-B to make it act like an 800, minus the extra controller ports and right cartridge. And it's still only "incognito" because a piece of plastic is covering it. But we can just agree to disagree.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Gunstar

[flashjazzcat]

Yes... whatever: take it up with Candle.

 

[Gunstar]

1 minute ago, flashjazzcat said:

Yes... whatever: take it up with Candle.

 

erm...whatever, it's not important enough for me to "take it up with Candle."

Edited October 15, 2019 by Gunstar

[Roydea6]

1 minute ago, flashjazzcat said:

Yes... whatever: take it up with Candle.

 

or Warerat and why should any one care what it is called as long as it works for me as a hobbyist and user only.

 

[flashjazzcat]

6 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

erm...whatever, it's not important enough for me to "take it up with Candle."

Why not? It could be interesting. Say: "Why call it Incognito? I don't care for the name and all upgrades are incognito anyway."

 

I would love to read the answer.

 

[Faicuai]

6 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

Well, I follow your point of argument, but I don't agree completely, as I don't see, IMHO, much difference in what motherboard is used, or if it plugs into a card slot instead of a socket. All that's needed in XL/XE machines is OS-B to make it act like an 800, minus the extra controller ports and right cartridge. And it's still only "incognito" because a piece of plastic is covering it. But we can just agree to disagree.

No my friend, that's now what's needed.

 

The 800's MoBo is (in comparison) more of a radical design, next to the cost-cutting / simplified design of the 800XL.The 800 (with its original MMU in place) provides dual floating data-buses, being the second one directly linked to the slot / place where the Personality board goes.

 

What's odd, though, is that once Incognito is installed (as well as its integrated MMU-emulation), those dual buses are replaced by a single one, thus behaving more like a 130XE (that is, in today's Incognito's form). That is a DEEP change, for sure, not easily visible to the naked eye.

 

All-in-all (and because of the 800's architecture), you will be able to enjoy it with Incognito in ways that are not possible with similarly upgraded 800XLs. Thanks to that "radical" MoBo design of the 800, you can hold a large-card like Incognito, and integrate RAM, ROM and SIDE/HD (on PBI-end) expansion, thus leaving not one, but two precious cart-slots empty, and free of any cart-port contention, which does limit my 800XLs / U1MB in a BIG way.

 

As the old say goes: the devil is on the details...

[flashjazzcat]

[Faicuai]

1 minute ago, flashjazzcat said:

Yes!

 

(not a single trace, and not a stupid-looking, protruding cart in the middle-top of your machine, which is inevitable on my 800XLs because of its not-so "radical" design...)

[Faicuai]

And now, for you what have not been told regarding Incognito's install (mode of devil's details):

 

1. When planning your install, consider the possibility of full-and-complete reversion, without leaving ANY trace that it was ever installed (if needed to be removed, later).
2. For the above reason, all sampling-wiring (all of it) goes at the bottom-side of the motherboard, where it will all become visible in one stroke, except CPU-board signals (x2) which you pick-up directly there. You should choose beefy / thick wiring, as much as bending/flexing needs allows for routing / fitting jumpers back up to Incognito's headers, on expansion bay. It is strongly advised not to use crappy, overly thin cables, if possible. Much better to buy them prewired, pre-terminated on multi-color ribbons and separate them if needed (Amazon has them).
3. For the same above reason, considering skipping the "flashing-led" install (it is not needed), as it will create a non-reversible modification IF the originally suggested trace-cut is performed on power-board. If you can make it non-reversible on your end, then fine!
4. There is a very HIGH chance that your 800 is over-driving the Luma signal, provided on its Y/C/Composite video port. If this is the case, it will hardly pass a tonality-test range on s-Video NTSC output (e.g. showing full tonal depth from 0 to 15 levels, blowing out bright, the last two), which will reduce effective dynamic-range of your video signal. This problem is cured by replacing R189 (very easily) and, while being a reversible change, it is actually an permanent enhancement, which will also lead to a much better gamma-response / reproduction, once the new resistor is in place.
5. When physically fitting your Incognito board on the expansion bay, either today or in the future, DO NOT EVER, NEVER plug it in any other slot other than the Personality slot, and much less attempt to fire-up your 800 host, while having that baby plugged on the wrong slot. I learned this the hard way, accidentally, while dealing with multiple problems with a defective (chinese) JTAG programmer / header (during CPLD updates).
6. Choose wisely the spot where your .ATR / SIDE image-flipping switch will be installed. The 800 case is superbly designed, and provides plenty of places to install it, out of sight, while still accessing it quickly.

 

The above and a bit more, may be found graphically on the link below, as well as several other (great) install resources stemming from the initial-wave of Incognito installs, back on its introduction days:

 

 

Have fun and enjoy a truly wonderful and unique upgrade !

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Faicuai

[flashjazzcat]

20 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

For the same above reason, considering skipping the "flashing-led" install (it is not needed), as it will create a non-reversible modification IF the originally suggested trace-cut is performed on power-board. If you can make it non-reversible on your end, then fine!

Although I'm sure Lotharek will agree that the HDD activity LED is "not needed", it's really up to the individual performing or paying for the installation to decide what's necessary and what is not. What you are saying is that you personally don't need the HDD activity light.

 

As for the modification being non-reversible: if you have the skill to perform the modification, you have the skill to undo it (tiny jumper wire across cut trace). The ATR button mod which you do appear to advocate does inflict irreversible changes to the plastic light conductor, meanwhile.

 

The rest (wiring under the motherboard, etc) is entirely subjective: I already link to Candle's original installation instructions under the videos, which themselves closely follow said instructions (although I believe they improve on them slightly by doing away with extensive cutting of the plastic expansion slot frame as described in Candle's guide).

Edited October 15, 2019 by flashjazzcat
typos

[Faicuai]

45 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

Although I'm sure Lotharek will agree that the HDD activity LED is "not needed", it's really up to the individual performing or paying for the installation to decide what's necessary and what is not. What you are saying is that you personally don't need the HDD activity light.

 

As for the modification being non-reversible: if you have the skill to perform the modification, you have the skill to undo it (tiny jumper wire across cut trace). The ATR button mod which you do appear to advocate does inflict irreversible changes to the plastic light conductor, meanwhile.

 

The rest (wiring under the motherboard, etc) is entirely subjective: I already link to Candle's original installation instructions under the videos, which themselves closely follow said instructions (although I believe they improve on them slightly by doing away with extensive cutting of the plastic expansion slot frame as described in Candle's guide).

No, let me re-iterate what I wrote and meant (no need for space-time-warping of it):

 

Besides introducing a non-reversible (trace cut) change on the power-board, the dumb-ass flashing led is not really needed... especially now that I can hear .ATR sound-synthesis thanks to your BIOS. So why in the world would I recommend cutting the original boards, when I can just soft-enable audio-feedback anytime I wish? That is the choice we really need to leave on the hands of the audience, though, instead of being driven to (right-out) cut their boards...

 

As for reversibility, nothing beats a clean, and untouched motherboard (e.g. no trace cuts, drilled-holes, cut / bent / ripped-out component, after-the-fact patching cables, etc.) Talk about something I definitely can't really recommend openly, especially for equipment of this age, and if you want to keep it in collection-grade status.

 

At the and of the day, anyone here is free to have their machines as ghetto or as tidy as they wish. I rather start from the tidy side, and let the remaining downhill being a personal choice (much healthier approach).

[+Stephen]

This is why I don't bother with instructions or tutorials.  There's always some loud mouth know-it-all that comes in and tells everyone what is wrong and why his way is better.

[flashjazzcat]

As the great man himself once said to me: 'Everyone wants their fifteen minutes'.

 

 

[Faicuai]

20 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

As the great man himself once said to me: 'Everyone wants their fifteen minutes'.

 

 

As a matter of fact, no one here (no one) will become famous posting videos, tutorials or any other resources related to upgrade-installs on 35+ years old equipment (without mentioned the limited stream of buyers of such upgrades).

 

It is clear that fame is hardly the (real) reason folks here are devoting quite a good deal of time and attention to share their knowledge and / or experience. It would be delusional to think otherwise.

 

We are all smart enough to know this, already.

 

[Gunstar]

4 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

Why not? It could be interesting. Say: "Why call it Incognito? I don't care for the name and all upgrades are incognito anyway."

 

I would love to read the answer.

 

Because he chose the name for upgrade board, it's his and his choice what to call it, and just because I don't care for the name doesn't mean I care as to why he called it what he did. If you would love to find out why, then you ask him.

[Gunstar]

5 hours ago, Faicuai said:

No my friend, that's now what's needed.

 

The 800's MoBo is (in comparison) more of a radical design, next to the cost-cutting / simplified design of the 800XL.The 800 (with its original MMU in place) provides dual floating data-buses, being the second one directly linked to the slot / place where the Personality board goes.

 

What's odd, though, is that once Incognito is installed (as well as its integrated MMU-emulation), those dual buses are replaced by a single one, thus behaving more like a 130XE (that is, in today's Incognito's form). That is a DEEP change, for sure, not easily visible to the naked eye.

 

All-in-all (and because of the 800's architecture), you will be able to enjoy it with Incognito in ways that are not possible with similarly upgraded 800XLs. Thanks to that "radical" MoBo design of the 800, you can hold a large-card like Incognito, and integrate RAM, ROM and SIDE/HD (on PBI-end) expansion, thus leaving not one, but two precious cart-slots empty, and free of any cart-port contention, which does limit my 800XLs / U1MB in a BIG way.

 

As the old say goes: the devil is on the details...

Uhh, yeah that's all cool, and I'm glad for it, and glad I'm getting one, but otherwise I don't care. If I knew it would lead to all of this, I would have not mentioned that I don't care for the name. I would have been satisfied with just extra memory and XL/XE compatibility, that is why I wanted it, the rest is all bonus and great. I think VBXE and Rapidus and U1MB, etc., etc., are all pretty radical upgrades too. I'm perfectly aware of how much better the 800 mobo is for upgrades like this, but I still don't care if everyone else thinks it's so radical it just had to be called Incognito. The devil may be in the details, but I don't care about the details.

 

 I've been well aware of all it's features, but frankly I don't need them all. I have never felt shorted with XL/XE machines I've owned because they don't have an extra cartridge slot, I don't think I'll ever use the right cartridge slot beyond a holder for another unplugged cart, and I have all the features mentioned (including a PBI) already in my upgraded 1200XL, combining both internal and external upgrades I have except for an extra cart slot. My 1200XL does everything I need, that a 130XE can do too.

 

I love the 800 and it's architecture, it will be my main computer with Incognito installed, but my 1200XL can already do everything I want my 800 to do with Incognito. U1MB, VBXE and Rapidus integrate things too, but then, I don't care if it is all integrated or separate upgrades when it's all said and done. I will not be doing anything with my Incognito 800 that I can't do with my 1200XL except for using ports 3 & 4 for a project I have in mind, and actually the end result of that project will work just as well on a 48K 400, which is what will be used ultimately, I'm just starting with my 800 because I don't currently own a 400.  But my 1200XL with all it's non-integrated upgrades is all I ever wanted or needed too and even my project using ports 3 & 4 I would have found a way around if I had only two ports; like the multi-joy.

 

I'd be just as happy with my 800 if I had to keep upgrades separate and on different boards and the mobo instead of all on the personality board, which is exactly what I was going to do when I didn't know if I'd ever get my hands on an Incognito or not. . I love the integrations on the Incognito for two reasons; it's cheaper than buying or making a bunch of separate upgrades and since it is integrated like that, it's easier to get my 800 upgraded to what I want in one shot, and even has stuff I don't necessarily need, but since the stuff is there, bonus!

 

to each their own.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Gunstar

[Gunstar]

4 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

 

As for the modification being non-reversible: if you have the skill to perform the modification, you have the skill to undo it (tiny jumper wire across cut trace). The ATR button mod which you do appear to advocate does inflict irreversible changes to the plastic light conductor, meanwhile.

 

 

This is the part I'm skipping, and exactly for the reason you state, especially since I don't need ATR "swapability" as I've mentioned before, ATR's I still use mostly with real floppy disks. I'll use incognito maybe for one "ATR drive" for multiple disk games that use multiple drives instead of swapping, but that is it, just how I use APE/SIO2PC with it's virtual drive(s) for ATR's, IF more than two drives can be used with the program, like Alternate Reality the Dungeon that uses 4 drives. I never use this feature on my MyIDE II and when I have a SiDE 2 for my second 1200XL, I won't use ATR swapping with it either...at least as long as I have multiple real working drives and floppies anyway. Maybe years down the line this feature may come in handy, but I'll cross that bridge when and if I come to it.

[Jeffrey Worley]

1 hour ago, Gunstar said:

This is the part I'm skipping, and exactly for the reason you state, especially since I don't need ATR "swapability" as I've mentioned before, ATR's I still use mostly with real floppy disks. I'll use incognito maybe for one "ATR drive" for multiple disk games that use multiple drives instead of swapping, but that is it, just how I use APE/SIO2PC with it's virtual drive(s) for ATR's, IF more than two drives can be used with the program, like Alternate Reality the Dungeon that uses 4 drives. I never use this feature on my MyIDE II and when I have a SiDE 2 for my second 1200XL, I won't use ATR swapping with it either...at least as long as I have multiple real working drives and floppies anyway. Maybe years down the line this feature may come in handy, but I'll cross that bridge when and if I come to it.

I think I might go ahead and implement the switch, just because the function is there.  I may use a little wafer switch, so it won't require any holes in the case.  Also, I see why someone might not want to cut a trace on the board, I get that.  There's no reason however, why you can't just snake a two-wire lead over there and glue a green led in with the reds, to give activity lighting.  I, for one, love blinkin' lights -- the more the better.  Also, io activity kinda requires one.  Another way, would be to pick up the hot leg of the led and run ONE wire to that from the Incognito, use the existing ground connection without cutting the hot trace on the board.  Tape the trace pad over so you get no ooopses.... :-{)  ??

Jeff

 

[adam242]

28 minutes ago, Technoid Mutant said:

I, for one, love blinkin' lights -- the more the better.

 

 

[Jeffrey Worley]

56 minutes ago, adam242 said:

 

 

Is that William Shatner?

 

[AtariGeezer]

1 minute ago, Technoid Mutant said:

Is that William Shatner?

 

Yep, the movie is Airplane II...