Incognito - Now's your chance!

[Justin Payne]

Looks like mine spent about 3 days in NY and took about a day to get to Seattle. Strange everyone is having different experiences but I guess that's the USPS for ya. I'm getting all of this info from the tracking link that I received from Lotharek.

[shoestring]

18 hours ago, DrVenkman said:

That’s a potential issue with your GTIA. The BIOS uses Player-Missile Graphics for some of the graphical elements. 

 

Yes it's the GTIA. I swapped it temporarily with a PAL GTIA and the issue isn't there, of course the colours are a little off with that one in there.

 

Time to order a replacement.

 

Thanks to all suggestions.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by shoestring

[flashjazzcat]

10 hours ago, shoestring said:

Thanks for your awesome work on the firmware.Will be sending you a donation shortly.

Many thanks! Thanks also for providing closure on the GTIA issue.

10 hours ago, shoestring said:

I also really enjoyed watching your Jazz guitar videos your YT channel. I’m also a guitar player.

Thanks.  We will have to chat some time. I would like to start publishing guitar videos to YT again, but am debating whether or not a second channel is required. I know a lot of computer folks also enjoy music, but... well, being jazz and all.

 

On a general note: last night I replaced R189 on the machine featured in the video with a 180 Ohm resistor and I think the luma levels are just about spot-on. However, tf_hh's Super Color CPU Card still blows stock 800 video out of the water, providing nice fat, bright pixels without compromising on detail and approaching VBXE levels of brightness and clarity.

[Jeffrey Worley]

9 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

Many thanks! Thanks also for providing closure on the GTIA issue.

Thanks.  We will have to chat some time. I would like to start publishing guitar videos to YT again, but am debating whether or not a second channel is required. I know a lot of computer folks also enjoy music, but... well, being jazz and all.

 

On a general note: last night I replaced R189 on the machine featured in the video with a 180 Ohm resistor and I think the luma levels are just about spot-on. However, tf_hh's Super Color CPU Card still blows stock 800 video out of the water, providing nice fat, bright pixels without compromising on detail and approaching VBXE levels of brightness and clarity.

Wow, I'm so impressed with these 800's and their incredible video quality that it's hard to see room for improvement.  That it CAN be improved on is just incredible.  If they were easier to take apart I'd consider playing with it.  Seems like every time I take the Ugly Duckling apart I discover another case crack, either one I just caused?  or one I just discovered, or both?  This particular case is brittle.

 

Best,

 

Jeff

[shoestring]

1 hour ago, flashjazzcat said:

Many thanks! Thanks also for providing closure on the GTIA issue.

Thanks.  We will have to chat some time. I would like to start publishing guitar videos to YT again, but am debating whether or not a second channel is required. I know a lot of computer folks also enjoy music, but... well, being jazz and all.

 

On a general note: last night I replaced R189 on the machine featured in the video with a 180 Ohm resistor and I think the luma levels are just about spot-on. However, tf_hh's Super Color CPU Card still blows stock 800 video out of the water, providing nice fat, bright pixels without compromising on detail and approaching VBXE levels of brightness and clarity.

Yes definitely. You should probably share more of your guitar playing on a seperate channel. I took up Jazz for a couple of years but always struggled to keep up with the others and I often fell behind if I were trying to read charts, especially when it was my turn to solo. The problem was always agreeing to learn 5 or 6 standards ( so I'd have to memorise them ) before the next rehearsal but they'd always decide to play something else.

 

The GTIA thing was on my mind the whole day at work, so I had figure out what was wrong or I was going to go crazy.

 

Jurgen's  SCCC is wonderful, that also goes for Brian's UAV as well which is practically the same circuit and I'm using one of those in my 65XE . It completely transforms the machine,  best picture I've ever seen on any 8 bit computer. 

[flashjazzcat]

1 minute ago, shoestring said:

I took up Jazz for a couple of years but always struggled to keep up with the others and I often fell behind if I were trying to read charts, especially when it was my turn to solo. The problem was always agreeing to learn 5 or 6 standards ( so I'd have to memorise them ) before the next rehearsal but they'd always decide to play something else.

Yep: I don't even read score and while this has zero detrimental effects on my ability to play anything I want, I am well aware of the elitism exhibited by some jazz folks who will not entertain players unless they tick all the boxes, and who may even deliberately attempt to out-fox people by changing the set. I have to say that a lot of the 'professional' jazz players I have encountered in my own part of the world have been pretty far up their own arse.  In any case: not to get off topic, we may continue the conversation elsewhere. Thanks for the advice re: the second channel.

6 minutes ago, shoestring said:

The GTIA thing was on my mind the whole day at work, so I had figure out what was wrong or I was going to go crazy.

I was actually going to hold off releasing the firmware update until I heard about the solution, just in case there was something I needed to address in software.

 

[flashjazzcat]

16 hours ago, spookt said:

Yes - I saw some odd behaviour on first and second boot. Straight to SDX and issues getting to the setup screen. I figured it was crap in the NVRAM so I pulled the battery and let it sit while I checked all my wiring and all was well afterwards. 

Forgot to do the battery pull test before updating the firmware on video, but in any case, the problem goes away once the new firmware is applied. So I guess it was a bug in the original BIOS rather than anything peculiar about this machine.

[+kheller2]

Mine arrived yesterday.  YAY!!!  Now to find some day in some month to install it.

 

[max2000]

Hi all, installed incognito and changed pull up resistors at RD4,RD5 to 2.2k as recommended.  Incognito works, but Left cartridge slot didn’t work, Atari boots to Memo Pad in Colleen mode or to Diagnostics in XL/XE mode.

 

Replaced RD4,RD5 resistors with 1.5k.  Still doesn’t work.   It was working before the install.    Is there something else to check?  

 

[toddtmw]

okay  I think I’ve picked the 800 I want to install this in. 
 

before starting, are there things I should check?  I booted a dos disk and also booted to basic and printed the free memory. 
 

anything else I should check?

 

thanks. 

[Faicuai]

3 hours ago, Jeffrey Worley said:

Wow, I'm so impressed with these 800's and their incredible video quality that it's hard to see room for improvement.  That it CAN be improved on is just incredible.  If they were easier to take apart I'd consider playing with it.  Seems like every time I take the Ugly Duckling apart I discover another case crack, either one I just caused?  or one I just discovered, or both?  This particular case is brittle.

 

Best,

 

Jeff

Correct, the 800 needs very little (except R189 replacement, which is easy as pie) to provide outstanding Y/C (s-Video) quality, already out of the box... so much that, if you intend to operate mostly with s-Video, you are much better off investing on the right tools (e.g. video processor) to improve the analog-to-digital video path, so you will have control of chroma & luma timing and processing, sharpening (and its actual spatial frequency, so you choose when to enhance coarse vs. fine detail), vertical and horizontal masking (so you can choose how much overscan area to display, at will, without compromising the source signal), and on and on.

 

In short, Y/C output from the 800 is already hard to improve (also thanks to the fact that is pretty well isolated from its own Composite output, which quite different from my 800 XLs):

 

 

HOWEVER (and a big however, here), if anyone here intends to operate mostly on COMPOSITE video-output (and little s-Video), I believe that's where SuperColor CPU card will be a GODSEND, as the improvement should quite noticeable on that interface. 

 

Examples of what you get from stock COMPOSITE output are Ok., but not at the level of SuperColor CPU (even if finely processed with external Video Processor):

 

 

 

All in all, R189 would be the only MANDATORY upgrade for the 800, and one that is extremely easy to perform, and with minimal tools.

 

[flashjazzcat]

28 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

if anyone here intends to operate mostly on COMPOSITE video-output (and little s-Video), I believe that's where SuperColor CPU card will be a GODSEND, as the improvement should quite noticeable on that interface. 

I don't use composite, but Y/C video from the Super Color CPU Card is noticeably better than stock Y/C output, even with the much vaunted (and advisable) R189 modification. This is the case on all machines I have worked on (whether installing SCCC in the machine, or simply comparing video quality before and after replacement of R189 with an SCCC reference machine). Note that all machines were PAL.

 

While the stock Y/C video quality on the PAL machines which have been through my hands is very good and probably more pleasing out of the box than that of other A8s, it's generally comparable (after the R189 mod) to a SuperVideo 600XL, or to a good stock 800XL after C56 (if present at all) has been removed, when evaluated using an LG M227WD LCD TV/Monitor. I can't really speak for NTSC 800s, but unless you have actually installed and used a SCCC, I think it would be difficult to make any generalised conclusions.

Edited October 29, 2019 by flashjazzcat

[Faicuai]

5 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

I don't use composite, but Y/C video from the Super Color CPU Card is noticeably better than stock Y/C output, even with the much vaunted (and advisable) R189 modification. This is the case on all machines I have worked on (whether installing SCCC in the machine, or simply comparing video quality before and after replacement of R189 with an SCCC reference machine). Note that all machines were PAL.

 

While the stock Y/C video quality on the PAL machines which have been through my hands is very good and probably more pleasing out of the box than that of other A8s, it's generally comparable (after the R189 mod) to a SuperVideo 600XL, or to a good stock 800XL after C56 (if present at all) has been removed, when evaluated using an LG M227WD LCD TV/Monitor. I can't really speak for NTSC 800s, but unless you have actually installed and used a SCCC, I think it would be difficult to make any generalised conclusions.

 

Since the NTSC and PAL domains are certainly different, there could certainly be differences (from stock-ouput) between these domains. And there are deeper differences arising between the 800 and my 800XL (even with C56 removed). For instance, the 800 will output almost perfectly aligned horizontal resolution when upsampled to 1280 pixels-wide matrix, whereas my 800 XL (all of them) will fuse /aliase detail at some horizontal intervals. This will be particularly noticeable on s-video Output and 80-colums emulation on SDX, for instance, where all of a sudden, characters' edges and detail appear "bolder" and then "thiinner", as you horizontally sweep the screen. On the 800? Beautiful, crisp output, to such extent that I had some relatives from Europe and, after seeing it, they claimed "Shit, that's pretty close to the Emulator output on the PC!"

 

In any case, it is advisable (if running on digital video-path) to abstract the video-processing stage completely from your display device, and then properly evaluate and compare different output signals from the Atari, by compensating / leveling each one properly at the Video Processor itself. If you have not done this, or you don't have a video processor, it will be hard to notice, except for whatever your LCD's built-in engine eventually spits out in the presence of these variations (e.g. my Sony Bravia large-screens responds differently than my Vizio LCD screen, and all of them respond differently than my DVDO iScan + Viewsonic duo), when handling the actual same source signal!

 

On my NTSC end, there is nothing worth improving on the 800's stock video signal, other than chroma-bleeding around abrupt luma changes. That's about it. Not even Y-to-C chroma delay, which I can directly target on the video processor (my 800XLs need it). 

 

On the composite side, however, there is definitely room for a really noticeable change, though.

[spookt]

2 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

Forgot to do the battery pull test before updating the firmware on video, but in any case, the problem goes away once the new firmware is applied. So I guess it was a bug in the original BIOS rather than anything peculiar about this machine.

Yeah - I updated to the latest release of your firmware as soon as I put the battery back in and I was sure my wiring was good and I haven't seen any more issues.

[flashjazzcat]

1 hour ago, Faicuai said:

On my NTSC end, there is nothing worth improving on the 800's stock video signal, other than chroma-bleeding around abrupt luma changes.

That's great to hear! For the average user who just wants better video quality out of their 800 via whatever display they are currently using, however (and who perhaps does not have recourse to video signal processing completely abstracted from their display device, and who perhaps lacks the mental RIGOUR, attention to detail and/or optical acclimatisation to correctly appreciate and evaluate video output in the context of properly controlled optics criteria such as we have had the pleasure of digesting in previous posts), SCCC improves the already good to an extent you have to see to appreciate.

[+mytek]

The SCCC's video circuits are based on Bryan's UAV design which he shared for inclusion in this product. I haven't seen the results from the SCCC board, since I don't have an 800, but if it's anything like what I see from my XEL and XLD projects that utilize the UAV, it's got to be the absolute best Composite/S-Video produced from an A8 system. The only exception that would be even better is the Sophia or VBXE.

 

[max2000]

4 hours ago, max2000 said:

Hi all, installed incognito and changed pull up resistors at RD4,RD5 to 2.2k as recommended.  Incognito works, but Left cartridge slot didn’t work, Atari boots to Memo Pad in Colleen mode or to Diagnostics in XL/XE mode.

 

Replaced RD4,RD5 resistors with 1.5k.  Still doesn’t work.   It was working before the install.    Is there something else to check?  

 

Fixed.  Re-flashed the bios and all is well.   

[shoestring]

7 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

I have to say that a lot of the 'professional' jazz players I have encountered in my own part of the world have been pretty far up their own arse.  In any case: not to get off topic, we may continue the conversation elsewhere.
 

Thanks for the advice re: the second channel.

I was actually going to hold off releasing the firmware update until I heard about the solution, just in case there was something I needed to address in software.

 

 

Tell me about it, it’s no different here and I always thought rock musicians were bad until I started getting involved in the jazz ensemble, even the classicaly trained musos in the group felt intimidated by the attitudes. I saw Steve Morse play live several years ago at a Jazz club and the regulars who’d never heard of him before were standing around making stupid jokes as his band set up and not expecting much of a show. But after a couple of songs they couldn’t believe what they were hearing and seeing... and it was so satisfying to watch their transition from being extremely judgemental to overly impressed and in awe. 
 

Good thing I stepped up to try another GTIA sooner rather than later, wouldn’t want something like that to delay release of the new firmware. But I think it was pretty obvious even though I kept second guessing the quality of my soldering and install. 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by shoestring

[Faicuai]

3 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

That's great to hear! For the average user who just wants better video quality out of their 800 via whatever display they are currently using, however (and who perhaps does not have recourse to video signal processing completely abstracted from their display device, and who perhaps lacks the mental RIGOUR, attention to detail and/or optical acclimatisation to correctly appreciate and evaluate video output in the context of properly controlled optics criteria such as we have had the pleasure of digesting in previous posts), SCCC improves the already good to an extent you have to see to appreciate.

Nah! I believe the audience is much smarter than that, otherwise they would not be venturing inside of their machines and doing soldering / surgery for their own upgrades. 

 

They will know / understand better, for sure, and (at the end of the day) final results / image-captures speak on their own (in any case). The rest is irrelevant.

 

Back on topic, I guess!

Edited October 29, 2019 by Faicuai

[+DrVenkman]

19 days after shipping, my board is *finally* out for delivery. Fingers crossed I will be able to make time for the installation this weekend.

[Gunstar]

1 hour ago, DrVenkman said:

19 days after shipping, my board is *finally* out for delivery. Fingers crossed I will be able to make time for the installation this weekend.

I was hoping for good news from you instead of lamenting on it still being in limbo in Warsaw when I saw you replied.? 

I've had mine in my hands for about a week now, but still haven't found time to install it, maybe this weekend as well. I had a few free hours yesterday, but I ended up doing some trouble-shooting and reversion from PAL back to NTSC on my 1200XL instead. (Since I am converting my 800 to PAL with the Incognito installation). It depends on how fast I can move into my house I've been building from my RV, which I am starting today.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Gunstar

[toddtmw]

Okay. I’m all ready to start. Just need the time!

 

[Gunstar]

1 hour ago, toddtmw said:

Okay. I’m all ready to start. Just need the time!

 

Yeah, I've gotten "ready" like that before, and by the time I returned there was a thick layer of dust on everything!

[+Stephen]

I ordered myself one of those silicone mats and got to use it last night.  What a great solution!

[Gunstar]

I think I'll order one myself right now, I have an afternoon of online shopping for house hold items and car insurance anyway!

 

Wow, there is quite a variety of mats to choose from on Amazon!

 

I went with this one, for $15 and it comes with some bonus tools (not that I need them, but hey, they're free)

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07VQYHZTR/ref=ox_sc_mini_detail?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A38V7SOCF2OM8H

Edited October 31, 2019 by Gunstar