Incognito - Now's your chance!

[flashjazzcat]

9 hours ago, toddtmw said:

So. Once I get this thing back together and attach a keyboard, how do you get to the bios screen?

is there like a users manual for using incognito?

Press and hold the 'Fuji' key (the reverse video key) and tap RESET. This process is the same regardless of which firmware you're using, although in my firmware, you can change the hotkey to START+RESET if you prefer. If you upgrade to my firmware, a splash screen appears by default which actually tells you what to press. I heard that the direction 'Press Atari Logo for menu' still leaves one or two users confounded as to which key to press. Unfortunately no additional text I include on the splash screen is likely to help them. Hopefully none of them have an Atari mug on the desk next to them, otherwise they might be inclined to push their coffee over in order to access the setup menu.

 

You'll find the manual for my firmware here:

 

https://atari8.co.uk/firmware/incognito/

 

There's also a loader 'quick reference', technical manual, and a link to the 'Hands on' video at the foot of the page. Also on the site (in the 'APT' section) is a guide to hard disk partitioning, and since the SIDE Loader is identical to the one found on the U1MB/SIDE, you can refer to the two 'SIDE Loader Version 3' videos I made back in August.

 

If you have the original firmware, there are only some half a dozen settings on the BIOS menu, many of which correspond in a self-explanatory manner to the same functionality in the new firmware.

8 hours ago, Jeffrey Worley said:

The U1MB and the Incognito are kissing-cousins in the user-interface.  Under the hood they may be very different, but to the user, the Incognito presents itself very much like the U1MB does to the XL/XE user.

For interest: at least with regard to my own firmware, on the U1MB/Incognito, things are at least 95 per cent identical in terms of code and 100 per cent identical in terms of UI (discounting the fact that one or two settings are different on the Incognito and that it has two modes of operation). From the hardware point of view (from the perspective of the firmware developer), the hardware is about 90 per cent identical. The U1MB and Incognito firmware (all three parts: BIOS setup menu, PBI BIOS and Loader) are all built from the exact same source code with conditional assembly taking care of the build targets. The Loader on both devices is the exact same one found on the stand-alone SIDE2 cartridge (save for different ATA register addresses, banking registers, etc).

 

The build target which diverges most significantly from 'stock' U1MB/Incognito builds is that of the 1088XEL/XLD. Those systems support dual physical disks (i.e. two CF cards) and the loader and PBI BIOS required a fair number of alterations, but everything is still built from common source code. Were that not the case, the scope of firmware deployment would be totally unmanageable.

 

A couple of other general points not necessarily referring to anything in this thread:

 

• FATFS.SYS was deliberately not placed in the custom SDX ROM images on my website and I am therefore well aware that it is not there. The versioning of FATFS suggests that it remains in a beta state and I did not want to put beta software on ROM which could at any time be supplanted by a release version. Users are free to put FATFS.SYS on the SDX CAR: volume if they wish, but in the meantime it is to be found on the SDX Toolkit disk, and likewise on my own APT Toolkit disk (in the 'drivers' folder, IIRC).
• Of the drivers and tools present on the APT Toolkit ATR, only FDISK, LSDEV and LSDSK also appear on the CAR: device. This is entirely deliberate and not down to any omission or oversight on my part.

 

In other news (as I already PM'd one other user in response to his list of questions; unfortunately my response elicited no reply so I assume interest has withered in that particular case), the absence of the 'Boot SpartaDOS X' option on the Incognito loader (the feature is present in the U1MB SIDE loader and has proved popular) was entirely down to my own ineptitude. I concluded that it could not work when of course accessing the SDX ROM from software launched from the Incognito loader (for the purpose of firmware updates, in that case) was the exact reason for Candle's initial CPLD firmware fix some years ago. Fixing a simple programming error allows the feature to work as per U1MB, and it will be present in the forthcoming update. For this reason I am quite glad I didn't exactly hurry its release, since I only fixed this issue a couple of days ago.

Edited November 4, 2019 by flashjazzcat

[Jeffrey Worley]

33 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

Press and hold the 'Fuji' key (the reverse video key) and tap RESET. This process is the same regardless of which firmware you're using, although in my firmware, you can change the hotkey to START+RESET if you prefer. If you upgrade to my firmware, a splash screen appears by default which actually tells you what to press. I heard that the direction 'Press Atari Logo for menu' still leaves one or two users confounded as to which key to press. Unfortunately no additional text I include on the splash screen is likely to help them. Hopefully none of them have an Atari mug on the desk next to them, otherwise they might be inclined to push their coffee over in order to access the setup menu.

 

You'll find the manual for my firmware here:

 

https://atari8.co.uk/firmware/incognito/

 

There's also a loader 'quick reference', technical manual, and a link to the 'Hands on' video at the foot of the page. Also on the site (in the 'APT' section) is a guide to hard disk partitioning, and since the SIDE Loader is identical to the one found on the U1MB/SIDE, you can refer to the two 'SIDE Loader Version 3' videos I made back in August.

 

If you have the original firmware, there are only some half a dozen settings on the BIOS menu, many of which correspond in a self-explanatory manner to the same functionality in the new firmware.

For interest: at least with regard to my own firmware, on the U1MB/Incognito, things are at least 95 per cent identical in terms of code and 100 per cent identical in terms of UI (discounting the fact that one or two settings are different on the Incognito and that it has two modes of operation). From the hardware point of view (from the perspective of the firmware developer), the hardware is about 90 per cent identical. The U1MB and Incognito firmware (all three parts: BIOS setup menu, PBI BIOS and Loader) are all built from the exact same source code with conditional assembly taking care of the build targets. The Loader on both devices is the exact same one found on the stand-alone SIDE2 cartridge (save for different ATA register addresses, banking registers, etc).

 

The build target which diverges most significantly from 'stock' U1MB/Incognito builds is that of the 1088XEL/XLD. Those systems support dual physical disks (i.e. two CF cards) and the loader and PBI BIOS required a fair number of alterations, but everything is still built from common source code. Were that not the case, the scope of firmware deployment would be totally unmanageable.

 

A couple of other general points not necessarily referring to anything in this thread:

 

• FATFS.SYS was deliberately not placed in the custom SDX ROM images on my website and I am therefore well aware that it is not there. The versioning of FATFS suggests that it remains in a beta state and I did not want to put beta software on ROM which could at any time be supplanted by a release version. Users are free to put FATFS.SYS on the SDX CAR: volume if they wish, but in the meantime it is to be found on the SDX Toolkit disk, and likewise on my own APT Toolkit disk (in the 'drivers' folder, IIRC).
• Of the drivers and tools present on the APT Toolkit ATR, only FDISK, LSDEV and LSDSK also appear on the CAR: device. This is entirely deliberate and not down to any omission or oversight on my part.

 

In other news (as I already PM'd one other user in response to his list of questions; unfortunately my response elicited no reply so I assume interest has withered in that particular case), the absence of the 'Boot SpartaDOS X' option on the Incognito loader (the feature is present in the U1MB SIDE loader and has proved popular) was entirely down to my own ineptitude. I concluded that it could not work when of course accessing the SDX ROM from software launched from the Incognito loader (for the purpose of firmware updates, in that case) was the exact reason for Candle's initial CPLD firmware fix some years ago. Fixing a simple programming error allows the feature to work as per U1MB, and it will be present in the forthcoming update. For this reason I am quite glad I didn't exactly hurry its release, since I only fixed this issue a couple of days ago.

So, if I put Side2's in left and right cartridge slots of my Incognito I DON'T get three working CF slots in my machine?  What a gyp.  I want my money back.  ?

[TGB1718]

I've follow this thread with much envy, would love one of these, but can't really justify it at the moment. The reason for

this post is with regards to the ATR swap button and the various ways to achieve it (seen Lotherek's video too).

 

To me it seems a simple thing to do, use the 'Channel Switch' next to the power button, I disconnected mine back in the 80's

and connected it to the CPU Reset line, this allowed a 'Cold Reset' without powering off.

 

Given that most people don't use the RF output any more, re-use this switch. (or did I miss something in the thread ? )

 

 

Edit:Sorry I Meant Flashjazzcat's fine video

Edited November 4, 2019 by TGB1718
Name Update

[flashjazzcat]

52 minutes ago, TGB1718 said:

Given that most people don't use the RF output any more, re-use this switch

This would be great, but the ATR swap button gets latched by a momentary switch. The two-position switch - were it connected to the swap button contacts - would result in the swap button appearing to the firmware to be be permanently held down, which would cause all kinds of problems. You want something which closes the circuit for an instant when pressed/flipped/etc, then opens again when released.

 

Addendum to earlier post: It turns out that the APT manual states that FATFS.SYS and ATRMNT.COM are included on CAR: in the custom ROMs, while they are in fact not present. I've updated the manual and will upload the corrected version when I release the next firmware update.

Edited November 4, 2019 by flashjazzcat

[+DrVenkman]

So with regard to the power board mod to provide an ATR switch and HDD activity light, I have verified that the switch is wired correctly - I mounted to ATR’s in the loader as D1: and D2:, booted time SDX and then checked the directory of D1:, swapped disks with the bezel button and then checked the directory of D1: again. Although getting the click to register properly takes some fiddling (I will work on that this week!) it does work. 
 

I have also verified my cabling all the way from the HDD LED anode to pin 1 on the Incognito, and obviously the ground (pin 2) works or the switch wouldn’t work. Anyone have any suggestions?

Edited November 4, 2019 by DrVenkman
Typo

[flashjazzcat]

1 minute ago, DrVenkman said:

Anyone have any suggestions?

What is the problem? Does the LED not light up?

 

[+DrVenkman]

1 minute ago, flashjazzcat said:

What is the problem? Does the LED not light up?

 

Correct. The HDD access light does not illuminate. So far as I can tell, I have things wired exactly as Candle’s and your instructions indicate. 

[flashjazzcat]

Only thing I can imagine is LED is busted or inserted backwards. Does the on-board SMD LED light up during IO?

 

[TGB1718]

43 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

This would be great, but the ATR swap button gets latched by a momentary switch. The two-position switch - were it connected to the swap button contacts - would result in the swap button appearing to the firmware to be be permanently held down, which would cause all kinds of problems. You want something which closes the circuit for an instant when pressed/flipped/etc, then opens again when released.

 

Addendum to earlier post: It turns out that the APT manual states that FATFS.SYS and ATRMNT.COM are included on CAR: in the custom ROMs, while they are in fact not present. I've updated the manual and will upload the corrected version when I release the next firmware update.

Sorry didn't mean just switch it, but use it as I currently do, flick it on/off quickly would act same as the push button switch.

[flashjazzcat]

3 minutes ago, TGB1718 said:

Sorry didn't mean just switch it, but use it as I currently do, flick it on/off quickly would act same as the push button switch.

Oh OK... Yes: I wondered after the event if perhaps this is what you meant. That would work.

[Gunstar]

I was thinking of a toggle switch somewhere unseen but easy access myself, I just don't like the idea of messing with the Power led position to make it a button. But I've decided against both. I'll use a push button like is called for in the instructions, but I'm just going to mount it someplace else. That part I haven't decided yet. I've got a nice baggy of momentary switches with colorful buttons to use, I think there is orange and yellow colors that might match or at least go with the color of the function buttons, but one place I think would be good to mount it is the side panel, so maybe black would be best. I'm not sure if I want the button to be highly visible or incognito.

 

Another thought I had was to turn the whole power-LED "fake key" on the 800 into a real 800 function key and mount a power LED in a different place completely. I may or may not even insert an LED into the new key. Does anyone have an extra 800 function key (cap and switch) laying around? I've never really liked the fake key/power LED on the 800 anyway; it's the only thing besides the side mounted ports that I never cared for on the 800 aesthetic design.

 

I thought about using  the RF channel switch too, but it'd be worse than using a toggle switch for ease of use and I would rather use it for something else. I do want just a push-button or a real key to press.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Gunstar

[Jeffrey Worley]

I did this:

 

It satisfies being able to use the atr swap button, and to satisfy your curiosity with regard to media access, but requires no case mods.  I use a teeny jeweler's screwdriver to hit the little white arduino momentart on the little circuit board along with the led.  It is just wedged in there right now, but I'll probably double-face tape or velcro it before it ships.

 

Jeff

[toddtmw]

2 minutes ago, Jeffrey Worley said:

I did this:

 

It satisfies being able to use the atr swap button, and to satisfy your curiosity with regard to media access, but requires no case mods.  I use a teeny jeweler's screwdriver to hit the little white arduino momentart on the little circuit board along with the led.  It is just wedged in there right now, but I'll probably double-face tape or velcro it before it ships.

 

Jeff

Would you be willing to post a simple wiring diagram for your circuit including which pin on the incognito each wire goes to?  
 

thank you. 

[Gunstar]

1 minute ago, Jeffrey Worley said:

I did this:

 

It satisfies being able to use the atr swap button, and to satisfy your curiosity with regard to media access, but requires no case mods.  I use a teeny jeweler's screwdriver to hit the little white arduino momentart on the little circuit board along with the led.  It is just wedged in there right now, but I'll probably double-face tape or velcro it before it ships.

 

Jeff

Yes, this is the sort of thing I am leaning towards, though I probably will mount it on the case somewhere, as the case is no longer a virgin one anyway with my internal RGB LED mod, but it does matter where it is mounted to me, I certainly don't want to have to lift the lid to access it, but yes, a good idea if you want to keep your case virgin stock.

[flashjazzcat]

15 minutes ago, Jeffrey Worley said:

but requires no case mods

Just to be pedantic, I have to point out that the light conductor modification requires no 'case mods' either: just filing down the plastic insert, which then sits 1-2mm higher in the tunnel.

 

[Jeffrey Worley]

12 hours ago, Faicuai said:

FYI, no interlock open-circuit here when applying force.

 

I guess you will have to press it REALLY hard for it fail?

They are designed for a limited travel is all, no fault of the switch.

[Jeffrey Worley]

15 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

Yes, this is the sort of thing I am leaning towards, though I probably will mount it on the case somewhere, as the case is no longer a virgin one anyway with my internal RGB LED mod, but it does matter where it is mounted to me, I certainly don't want to have to lift the lid to access it, but yes, a good idea if you want to keep your case virgin stock.

You don't have to with this little board.  You can poke the button through the vents with a skinny rod, like a toothpick.

 

Jeff

[Faicuai]

41 minutes ago, Jeffrey Worley said:

I did this:

 

It satisfies being able to use the atr swap button, and to satisfy your curiosity with regard to media access, but requires no case mods.  I use a teeny jeweler's screwdriver to hit the little white arduino momentart on the little circuit board along with the led.  It is just wedged in there right now, but I'll probably double-face tape or velcro it before it ships.

 

Jeff

The concept seems to be pretty good: full reversibility and access through the vents (as shown).

 

The problem, however, is the shrouded-edge of the top-cover shield, when resting on its place: it will sit-on-top and squash the cable-terminal if you are to properly cover and close the expansion-bay.

 

For proper sitting and closure, the \metal plate under the top plastic cover will have to be (minimally) modified to allow the cable terminal ribbon out of the expansion bay and into the left-side of it. The good news is that such mod would be essentially invisible and immaterial (e.g. reversibility will not matter or contribute at all).

 

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Faicuai

[Faicuai]

38 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

Yes, this is the sort of thing I am leaning towards, though I probably will mount it on the case somewhere, as the case is no longer a virgin one anyway with my internal RGB LED mod, but it does matter where it is mounted to me, I certainly don't want to have to lift the lid to access it, but yes, a good idea if you want to keep your case virgin stock.

I was on the exact same position years ago, when planning the install. I quickly came to the conclusion that the suggested mod of the LED console (fixed) button was a NO-go (not worth the physical changes, nor it seemed solid enough, plus being irreversible, as repairing cut-traces or leaving drilled-holes on the power-board is not really a reversion).

 

If you are (and will remain) undecided, you can just safely extract the ATR-switch cables through an underneath side (left-or-right) taking advantage of the multiple vents available there. Then SOLDER the switch externally (and isolated it with thermo-wrap), and have it functional, until one day you define where exactly is your best place. The flashing led eventually becomes a meaningless / repetitive distraction over time (saw that happening with my SIDE 1/2), and these latest Incognito boards already have a bright, flashing-LED when I/O takes place, which is enough for diagnostics. 

 

That's probably the best advice for anyone on the fence, as you will have a 100% functional install (with working .ATR switch button) and still a complete and unmodified PCB and external case, until the time comes for final install.

 

 

 

[Jeffrey Worley]

8 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

Just to be pedantic, I have to point out that the light conductor modification requires no 'case mods' either: just filing down the plastic insert, which then sits 1-2mm higher in the tunnel.

 

I think the light-pipe mod is ingenious, but more effort than I have energy for, unless a customer insisted.

 

 

Jeff

[flashjazzcat]

31 minutes ago, Jeffrey Worley said:

I think the light-pipe mod is ingenious, but more effort than I have energy for, unless a customer insisted.

That's fine of course: I was just puzzled that something which is outwardly impossible to discern and which involves no modifications to the case is repeatedly described as a case modification.

[+DrVenkman]

Speaking of "case mods which aren't" (e.g., the power board and light-pipe tweaking), I want to answer an earlier question of Jon's -

 

I have verified that my ATR swap/rotate button DOES work as designed - I have zip-tied the interlock switch so I can fiddle while the case is open/lifted and it DOES work as intended. I still need this weekend to get the button height and fitment correct (it protrudes too much when the case closed tightly, and is a bit too tight to boot). Manually toggling the switch with the front of the case lifted works. That means that the ground (pin 2 of the Incognito header, also connected to the cathode of the HDD LED), and the switch signal (pin 3 on Incognito) are both correct. And I've already verified the continuity all the way from the LED anode (long leg ...)  to my connector on pin 1. When I hold my meter probes in the correct orientation and have it set to diode mode, the led illuminates, so it's working. I have also tested the power LED using my meter, which is inserted in the same orientation (which matches the silkscreen on the back of the board as well).  And to answer Jon's question from this morning since I can now work with the case open, I can verify the SMD light on Incognito is working. 

 

SO: the only thing I can think of is maybe the green LED I picked has too great current drop or the Incognito doesn't provide enough forward voltage; I noted that the green LED was pulling well over 2V during the test. 

 

Anyway, that's all I got for tonight. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by DrVenkman
clarit

[Gunstar]

10 hours ago, Jeffrey Worley said:

They are designed for a limited travel is all, no fault of the switch.

I have never had a problem with the switch, of course we are only talking maybe a dozen times I've been in an 800 where I would have to press it myself, but I guess since I could see it making contact I never pressed it too hard.

[Jeffrey Worley]

9 hours ago, DrVenkman said:

Speaking of "case mods which aren't" (e.g., the power board and light-pipe tweaking), I want to answer an earlier question of Jon's -

 

I have verified that my ATR swap/rotate button DOES work as designed - I have zip-tied the interlock switch so I can fiddle while the case is open/lifted and it DOES work as intended. I still need this weekend to get the button height and fitment correct (it protrudes too much when the case closed tightly, and is a bit too tight to boot). Manually toggling the switch with the front of the case lifted works. That means that the ground (pin 2 of the Incognito header, also connected to the cathode of the HDD LED), and the switch signal (pin 3 on Incognito) are both correct. And I've already verified the continuity all the way from the LED anode (long leg ...)  to my connector on pin 1. When I hold my meter probes in the correct orientation and have it set to diode mode, the led illuminates, so it's working. I have also tested the power LED using my meter, which is inserted in the same orientation (which matches the silkscreen on the back of the board as well).  And to answer Jon's question from this morning since I can now work with the case open, I can verify the SMD light on Incognito is working. 

 

SO: the only thing I can think of is maybe the green LED I picked has too great current drop or the Incognito doesn't provide enough forward voltage; I noted that the green LED was pulling well over 2V during the test. 

 

Anyway, that's all I got for tonight. 

My ATR switch works as well, but does not appear to swap drives when plugged in.  I was thinking the foreward voltage of the led as well.  Perhaps the ground is insufficient.  I'm going to run a ground and test when I get the time.

 

[flashjazzcat]

10 hours ago, DrVenkman said:

SO: the only thing I can think of is maybe the green LED I picked has too great current drop or the Incognito doesn't provide enough forward voltage

This is possibly the problem. One Incognito owner sent me some very interesting DMs on the matter of the LED driver circuit having to power two LEDs (the SMD part and the secondary LED). It's something I'd never thought about, but it may well explain the lacklustre glow of the HDD light.