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Incognito - Now's your chance!

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9 hours ago, DrVenkman said:

I used a 20mm standoff with a small screw inserted into the bottom - I simply rotated the screw to dial-in the insertion depth, which in turn set the total height. I think it was very close to 22 - 22.5mm, I think. 

Many thanks ;)

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Guys please reconsider adding incog's to mint/near mint 800's if you are planning it. They are very limited in number. Install in a very good quality 800 sure, but not mint or near mint. I know the spirit here is for modding and using but I think in this case that is the wrong mindset for preservation and even resale value. Please don't do it.

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10 minutes ago, Sugarland said:

Install in a very good quality 800 sure, but not mint or near mint

What is the difference between 'very good quality' and 'near mint'? I'm not sure if my 800 is mint or merely very good and I need to check if I have done wrong.

 

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1 hour ago, flashjazzcat said:

What is the difference between 'very good quality' and 'near mint'? I'm not sure if my 800 is mint or merely very good and I need to check if I have done wrong.

 

 

Good question. The difference sounds ambiguous and subject to interpretation however the terms have been well defined and applied in the antiques/collectables markets.  For example a quick search on the differences in the terms finds them described for LP's at Discogs.com:

 

Quote

Mint Vinyl

Absolutely perfect in every way. Certainly never been played, possibly even still sealed. Should be used sparingly as a grade, if at all.  

 

Quote

 

Near Mint (NM or M-) Vinyl

A nearly perfect record. A NM- record has more than likely never been played, and the vinyl will play perfectly, with no imperfections during playback. Many dealers won't give a grade higher than this implying (perhaps correctly) that no record is ever truly perfect. The record should show no obvious signs of wear. A 45 RPM or EP sleeve should have no more than the most minor defects, such as any sign of slight handling. An LP cover should have no creases, folds, seam splits, cut-out holes, or other noticeable similar defects. The same should be true of any other inserts, such as posters, lyric sleeves, etc.  

 

 

Quote

 

Very Good Plus (VG+) Vinyl

Generally worth 50% of the Near Mint value. A Very Good Plus record will show some signs that it was played and otherwise handled by a previous owner who took good care of it. Defects should be more of a cosmetic nature, not affecting the actual playback as a whole. Record surfaces may show some signs of wear and may have slight scuffs or very light scratches that don't affect one's listening experiences. Slight warps that do not affect the sound are "OK". The label may have some ring wear or discoloration, but it should be barely noticeable. Spindle marks may be present. Picture sleeves and inner sleeves will have some slight wear, slightly turned-up corners, or a slight seam split. An LP cover may have slight signs of wear, and may be marred by a cut-out hole, indentation, or cut corner. In general, if not for a couple of minor things wrong with it, this would be Near Mint.  

 

 

Quote

 

Very Good (VG) Vinyl

Generally worth 25% of Near Mint value. Many of the defects found in a VG+ record will be more pronounced in a VG disc. Surface noise will be evident upon playing, especially in soft passages and during a song's intro and fade, but will not overpower the music otherwise. Groove wear will start to be noticeable, as with light scratches (deep enough to feel with a fingernail) that will affect the sound. Labels may be marred by writing, or have tape or stickers (or their residue) attached. The same will be true of picture sleeves or LP covers. However, it will not have all of these problems at the same time. Goldmine price guides with more than one price will list Very Good as the lowest price.  

 

 

Another market is late 60's early 70's muscle cars. Adding 2019 technology and parts to a 'mint factory stock' 1969 Dodge Charger can lower value and appeal a lot. It can be heartbreaking to see a beautiful classic machine turned into a Frankenstein mishmash when it didn't need it in the first place. Now if it 's a junkyard restoration that's entirely different... That's what I'm trying to say.  We own our computers and you make the final decision but I think it's in our own best interests to preserve the nicest machines. Hopefully they'll outlive us by many years. The original state has value beyond modern addons lets not forget that please.

 

 

Edited by Sugarland

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Certainly 800's aren't super common but they're not *that* rare. I've found two locally here in the Nashville suburbs over the last 4 years, each for a whopping $50, both with a couple common carts, one in-box, the other with a 410.  You just have to be patient and ignore eBay's Buy It Now fervor. :) 

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It's not an early Apple II revision machine for hoarding purposes. And they produced a lot more of these, they are not going to a few hundred thousand dollars anytime soon.

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How long will they be of any value?

The surge of interest is us 40-50 year olds with a bit of spare cash trying to buy the stuff they had/ couldn't afford back in their teens.

Like classic MGs, once the people that can relate to them start to shuffle off the mortal coil the market crashes.

I say stick an incognito in it and play some games. What use is it in a box? Is it even working anymore?

Schrödinger's Atari 😁

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21 minutes ago, mimo said:

How long will they be of any value?

The surge of interest is us 40-50 year olds with a bit of spare cash trying to buy the stuff they had/ couldn't afford back in their teens.

Like classic MGs, once the people that can relate to them start to shuffle off the mortal coil the market crashes.

Exactly. I heard Carrington Vanston make the same point on an episode of the Retro-Computing Roundtable a few months ago. Once our cohort is gone or too decrepit to enjoy our stuff in 20 - 30 more years, it will all revert to the status of "useless junk" that most people treated it as between the early 90's and mid-Aughts, when it was dirt cheap at yard sales and eBay. The "demand" for these items will be limited to a veritable handful in the occasional tech or gaming history museum. 

 

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1 hour ago, DrVenkman said:

Exactly. I heard Carrington Vanston make the same point on an episode of the Retro-Computing Roundtable a few months ago. Once our cohort is gone or too decrepit to enjoy our stuff in 20 - 30 more years, it will all revert to the status of "useless junk" that most people treated it as between the early 90's and mid-Aughts, when it was dirt cheap at yard sales and eBay. The "demand" for these items will be limited to a veritable handful in the occasional tech or gaming history museum. 

 

The above argument evidently suffers from a (fatal) flaw: it somehow assumes with 100% certainty (and with ZERO proof)  that younger generations will have zero interest on these technological achievements.

 

There is already strong evidence, of course, that clearly suggests the opposite. And EVEN if the hardware is long gone, work like Avery's will enshrine it for posterity, and for future generations to look at it, learn from it, or simply appreciate the monumental caliber of the work put in place by an amazing bunch of pioneers, with rudimentary tools, in contemporary terms.

 

Those future generations, living a world where individual innovation will surely become harder and harder to achieve, will only feel envy and admiration for the amazing legacy of those mavericks...

 

Plain and simple.

Edited by Faicuai
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My 800 looks great, but I hear some slight noise on playback when I stick it on the record turntable, so I feel fine about installing Incognito. :) Phew!

 

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My 800 looks great since I restored it and then hacked and modified it. I'd call that preservation myself.

 

So, I promise not to do any modifications to an 800 if I find one NIB, as those will be the only ones in "mint" condition. All others are open season and I'll make a special point of doing as much irreversible upgrades to them as I can manage. Scouts honor.😇

 

Then the two dozen people from younger generations who actually give a damn about these old machines will have some MIB 800's they can keep that way and never use. And the modified ones they will think are stock machines with the Incognitos and be amazed!

 

As far as any value being lost or gained since I plan on keeping them the rest of my life, it's a moot point.

Edited by Gunstar
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Honestly if I found a pristine 800 I would want to use it on my desk, so I absolutely would put the incognito in it. 

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2 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

My 800 looks great, but I hear some slight noise on playback when I stick it on the record turntable, so I feel fine about installing Incognito. :) Phew!

 

LMAO ROTFL!

 

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On 11/11/2019 at 10:07 PM, Faicuai said:

Those future generations, living a world where individual innovation will surely become harder and harder to achieve, will only feel envy and admiration for the amazing legacy of those mavericks...

 

 

If present generations are any indication, future generations will have little interest in individual innovation or achievement. Groupthink is valued over all.

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45 minutes ago, adam242 said:

 

If present generations are any indication, future generations will have little interest in individual innovation or achievement. Groupthink is valued over all.

Laughing but saddened by the truth of this.

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On 11/11/2019 at 9:07 PM, Faicuai said:

The above argument evidently suffers from a (fatal) flaw: it somehow assumes with 100% certainty (and with ZERO proof)  that younger generations will have zero interest on these technological achievements.

 

There is already strong evidence, of course, that clearly suggests the opposite. And EVEN if the hardware is long gone, work like Avery's will enshrine it for posterity, and for future generations to look at it, learn from it, or simply appreciate the monumental caliber of the work put in place by an amazing bunch of pioneers, with rudimentary tools, in contemporary terms.

 

Those future generations, living a world where individual innovation will surely become harder and harder to achieve, will only feel envy and admiration for the amazing legacy of those mavericks...

 

Plain and simple.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with this assessment. For one, I think there is far more than "ZERO proof." How many of younger generations are here now, showing interest in these "technological achievements?" Too most, it's already old junk and prehistoric tech to them, that they don't care about. The numbers certainly aren't going to increase with future generations. And no, current younger generations don't consider any of it of "monumental caliber" and unless future generations are taught to specifically admire past generation's tech achievements, I'd say it's about ZERO chance of what you suggest happening.

 

After all, it will be the current younger generations left to teach them the same values they have, which do not include value of this old tech. And individual innovation becoming less common and harder to achieve doesn't inspire admiration for the past, today's mindset is to do away with the past and rewrite it to fit their political agendas and learning individual achievement and innovation of the past will be stamped down in education in favor of "group think" and "cookie cutter" graduates with no knowledge of how to learn and critical thinking and personal innovation.  Today's mind-numbed generations certainly won't be able to teach future generations what they never learned or teach them to appreciate that which they were actively taught NOT to appreciate.

 

I wish your view of the future were true, or things drastically change back so that they become true. I wish I were wrong, laws of universal atrophy point to me being right. 

Edited by Gunstar
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2 hours ago, Gunstar said:

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with this assessment. For one, I think there is far more than "ZERO proof." How many of younger generations are here now, showing interest in these "technological achievements?" Too most, it's already old junk and prehistoric tech to them, that they don't care about. The numbers certainly aren't going to increase with future generations. And no, current younger generations don't consider any of it of "monumental caliber" and unless future generations are taught to specifically admire past generation's tech achievements, I'd say it's about ZERO chance of what you suggest happening.

 

After all, it will be the current younger generations left to teach them the same values they have, which do not include value of this old tech. And individual innovation becoming less common and harder to achieve doesn't inspire admiration for the past, today's mindset is to do away with the past and rewrite it to fit their political agendas and learning individual achievement and innovation of the past will be stamped down in education in favor of "group think" and "cookie cutter" graduates with no knowledge of how to learn and critical thinking and personal innovation.  Today's mind-numbed generations certainly won't be able to teach future generations what they never learned or teach them to appreciate that which they were actively taught NOT to appreciate.

 

I wish your view of the future were true, or things drastically change back so that they become true. I wish I were wrong, laws of universal atrophy point to me being right. 

Perfectly understand your point, because I also used to see things with the exact same degree of skepticism... However, as soon as I saw this (with over 2,500,000 views) it made me rethink some things (I think there is a bit of hope):

 

https://youtu.be/nLy_jEbuY-U

 

I'be got to give you one thing, though: packing a beautiful 800, in a box, with no basic improvements on usability and reliability (like Incognito) is a sure ticket to a deep and forgotten grave...

Edited by Faicuai
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2 hours ago, Gunstar said:

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with this assessment. For one, I think there is far more than "ZERO proof." How many of younger generations are here now, showing interest in these "technological achievements?" Too most, it's already old junk and prehistoric tech to them, that they don't care about. The numbers certainly aren't going to increase with future generations. And no, current younger generations don't consider any of it of "monumental caliber" and unless future generations are taught to specifically admire past generation's tech achievements, I'd say it's about ZERO chance of what you suggest happening.

 

After all, it will be the current younger generations left to teach them the same values they have, which do not include value of this old tech. And individual innovation becoming less common and harder to achieve doesn't inspire admiration for the past, today's mindset is to do away with the past and rewrite it to fit their political agendas and learning individual achievement and innovation of the past will be stamped down in education in favor of "group think" and "cookie cutter" graduates with no knowledge of how to learn and critical thinking and personal innovation.  Today's mind-numbed generations certainly won't be able to teach future generations what they never learned or teach them to appreciate that which they were actively taught NOT to appreciate.

 

I wish your view of the future were true, or things drastically change back so that they become true. I wish I were wrong, laws of universal atrophy point to me being right. 

Projects today are larger than any one individual, more often than not.  The more-often methodology applies even to projects which could be understood by one person.  That breeds a very limited skillset for 'technical staff'', reduces them to button-pushers and card-swappers ( not a bad thing, if not in lieu of documentation).  But that kind of technology apparently works...  Many 'techs' these days couldn't COUNT in hex or. Binary or octal.

Jeff

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Octal I learned from the beginning. Hex and binary I learned in tech college 18 years ago, rarely used until recently and I'm relearning now, though I still need references and translation tables, I haven't spent enough hours close together to really absorb it into long term memory yet. With huge gaps of weeks and months in between several hour sessions learning BASIC and machine/Assembly and naturally learning hex and Binary as I do. 

Edited by Gunstar

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3 hours ago, Gunstar said:

Octal I learned from the beginning. Hex and binary I learned in tech college 18 years ago, rarely used until recently and I'm relearning now, though I still need references and translation tables, I haven't spent enough hours close together to really absorb it into long term memory yet. With huge gaps of weeks and months in between several hour sessions learning BASIC and machine/Assembly and naturally learning hex and Binary as I do. 

Never learned Octal, understood hex when programming assembler in the 80s but only got "fluent" with it and able to do binary-hex conversions in my head when I did Shamus+.

 

I think there will always be a few people who take an interest in old stuff. There are people collecting old watches, old cars, old washing machines (met one myself!), etc. So I'm pretty sure there will be people who collect old computers. As some of our heirs will be happy to throw away the stuff we cluttered our studies/mancaves with once we're gone, supplies are going to decline further, propping prices for the remaining inventory. 

 

My biggest concern regarding usability for future generations is knowledge. I do hope that all those who have information online will take care to keep it available somehow. Future Atarians should not be without an archived copy of AtariAge even if it should not remain online forever. 

 

There are youngsters who program Arduinos and build stuff with them. That's much like what many of us did with Ataris back in the 80s. I don't think that strain of people is dying out.

 

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2 hours ago, slx said:

Never learned Octal, understood hex when programming assembler in the 80s but only got "fluent" with it and able to do binary-hex conversions in my head when I did Shamus+.

 

I think there will always be a few people who take an interest in old stuff. There are people collecting old watches, old cars, old washing machines (met one myself!), etc. So I'm pretty sure there will be people who collect old computers. As some of our heirs will be happy to throw away the stuff we cluttered our studies/mancaves with once we're gone, supplies are going to decline further, propping prices for the remaining inventory. 

 

My biggest concern regarding usability for future generations is knowledge. I do hope that all those who have information online will take care to keep it available somehow. Future Atarians should not be without an archived copy of AtariAge even if it should not remain online forever. 

 

There are youngsters who program Arduinos and build stuff with them. That's much like what many of us did with Ataris back in the 80s. I don't think that strain of people is dying out.

 

They will just be fewer, too.  The Jay Leno -s of the retro computing scene.  Eventually the machines will get really scarce in working order, maybe in our lifetime.  The Atari's position in this regard is pretty good.  Some other machines are lost.

 

Jeff

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I have been having trouble with one thing.  The ATR swap button for the Incognito.  I rigged a small spst normally-open momentary to a little perfboard, put the switch and the led on the board and ran the grounds together, to the center pin of the connector on the Incognito.  The other pin is wired to the cathode of an LED, which works fine as a hard disk access led.  The last pin is connected to the other side of the switch, and is the source of my problem.  This switch does not, for some reason, trigger an ATR swap.  I can press it til doomsday.  Works with a VOM.  I upgraded to FJC's latest firmware first off of course, but I have no "ATR swap button" widget in the BIOS, nor anything relating to a side-cart rom mode.  I've seen both of those in reference to this issue and, in the absence of the widgets, don't know if the buttons I've connected are actually enabled or suppressed somehow in firmware.

 

Help?

 

Jeff

 

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4 hours ago, slx said:

 

There are youngsters who program Arduinos and build stuff with them. That's much like what many of us did with Ataris back in the 80s. I don't think that strain of people is dying out.

 

This is true, yes, but those youngsters are programming Arduinos because it's the tech thing for youngsters to do this generation, however this doesn't translate into youngsters taking an interest in 40 year-old computers. Just like most of us don't take an interest (I'm actually an exception in the audio/video department) in electronics prior to our generation, like being ham-radio enthusiasts or 8mm camera enthusiasts or electric typewriter enthusiasts (ok that ones is stretching it ;) ) or what ever. There are always a few, of course. 

 

The same types of electronic/computer hobbyist's exist today, like us, as you say, but they are interested in the tech of their generation, not ours. If I had the space and could find and afford some old main-frame computer from the 50's or 60's I'd get one, but I doubt I'd ever use it much or become an enthusiast, it would just be a museum piece, hopefully working with lots of blinking lights, but that's it. That's what is destined, at best, for our generation's computers, some museum pieces that maybe get taken out and played with at special events and show-and-tell. And the old computers will become more and more rare over time until they are only the purview of rich eccentric collectors to adorn their library-museum or whatever.   

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