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Incognito - Now's your chance!

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9 hours ago, adam242 said:

Asset blah blah blah.... you're missing the point. Very few of us here are concerned about the market value of our Ataris. We'll probably take them to our graves. I'll enjoy mine until it's time to throw it in the ground with me.

 

Missing the point, blah-blah-blah.

 

When it comes to all these things, the old saying has it all: Money talks,... and bullshit walks. It is very Martian, indeed.

 

Just because you consider your hobby a pile of worthless rubble, does not mean that that the market (and its participants) think (or will think) likewise, as a whole.

 

One of the biggest fallacies I have read around, in a LoOoNg time.

 

Edited by Faicuai
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Again with circular argument?  Everyone just let it drop.  I'm tired of this thread getting derailed on this.  There is no right answer, it's all up to what the owner wants to do.

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9 hours ago, adam242 said:

Asset blah blah blah.... you're missing the point. Very few of us here are concerned about the market value of our Ataris. We'll probably take them to our graves. I'll enjoy mine until it's time to throw it in the ground with me.

I have some concern with market values, because I can service and repair these machines.  Of course I take into account condition, and I shy away from case mods.  For my own machines though, I'll pretty much cut holes where I feel like it.  Two of my 800xl's have internal 9-pin serial ports drilled out with a concrete bit in my hand-driver.  That's none too picky.

 

From a collector's standpoint, documentation, history, is a great substitute for factory perfection in any event.  A really nice 1969 Chevy Impala with all original everything, but with add-ons and upgrades recorded in a journal which also includes schematics and necessary technical information.  The journal can become a substantial thing.  "This ugly thing was WAY uglier before I got my hands on it", "what would you look like if mobbed and poked at by schoolkids all day for 14 years and then sleeping in a shed another 25, all without a single bath..."  Records can be selling tools and enhance the collector's confidence in his purchase, may actually appreciate a machine more than a lack of holes in the machine would.  A perfect, boxed 800xl is one thing, and it sells for a couple of hundred dollars if you look for it.  But it does no more than the meanest ally cat 800xl out there and probably less, because the ally cat has very possibly been operated on by some avid owner in search of more ram or Omnimon or Lord knows what.  That's cool, and if properly documented, even retroactively, can enhance a machine's value.

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4 hours ago, Jeffrey Worley said:

(...)

 

From a collector's standpoint, documentation, history, is a great substitute for factory perfection in any event.   (...) Records can be selling tools and enhance the collector's confidence in his purchase, may actually appreciate a machine more than a lack of holes in the machine would.   (...) That's cool, and if properly documented, even retroactively, can enhance a machine's value.

Dead-on!

 

Right there, that's more about market-dynamics / psychology (transactional), which is an idea much more central to the topic, rather than either/or personal preferences (which are multiple-choice by nature, and have not been really questioned, in reality).

 

And what seems very interesting is how the above/same concept actually extends and applies into quite different market domains. Here's, for example, this puppy commanding U.S. $1,200.00 (I happen to own it, as well, in even better condition 😞

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-SL-HF2100-Best-HiFi-Betamax-Exceptional-Cosmetic-Condition-Never-Used-/264462281779?epid=66723754&hash=item3d932e2c33%3Ag%3Aqt0AAOSwRA9dcXQK&nma=true&si=TnAgHogDutYhLk5xZt95rmepRbs%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

That unit is almost guaranteed of being non-functional, due to the surface-mounted electrolytic-capacitors on-board the capstan-assembly. Had the seller stated that those capacitors had been upgraded to non-SMT / axial (and the job was demonstrably professional and impeccable), he could have fetched another $200-$300, because a) reliability will up to the roof, and b) that is the minimum such upgrade is going to cost (e.g. the existing Capstan PCB tracks will be damaged due to the inexorable, time-driven electrolytic leakage). A real buyer of such exotic item KNOWS this, pretty well (!)

 

Reminds me of the immaculate SL-HF750 I bought for $250 (taking a risk, there), and then ended up selling for $650, and with that cash, bought the SL-HF2100 in immaculate condition (non-functional, per above symptoms) and ended fixing (and improving) with a drop-in part, for a modest amount... now it is worth close to $1,300-$1,500, which my kids have already seen and told me "DO NOT ever sell that thing from outer-space!" Even THEM can notice when something is special.... :-)

 

Gotta love Capitalism!

 

Edited by Faicuai

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Look, I know this your crusade and all that, but I've asked you stop derailing this thread and yet you continue to keep posting the same thing over and over again.

 

Stop now.  You've been warned.  There will be no further warnings.

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On 11/21/2019 at 7:50 PM, lotharek said:

 

Please, quote especially Your questions and my asnwers HERE 

 

just for info :

 

I HAVE RECEIVED 32 mails concerning installation of stereo. 

 

AFTER I RECEIVE ANSWER:   REAL MAN DO NOT READ MANULS,  i gave up with support of any type

 

Grzegorz, przykro mi bardzo - JESTES KLAMCA !

 

 

 

Dear Collegues,

 

as i just have received official mail from GELO29`s lawyer,  forcing me to remove / correct above post of mine, as being considered by gelo29 very offensive and insultive. Unformatunatelly, this post cannot be edited or removed anymore... 

 

So, please find below my apologies  ;-)

 

 

I want to indicate, that GELO29 is NOT LIAR ( klamca=liar)  and want to apologize for that...

 

IN MY OPINION HIS COMMENT indicating LACK OF MY SUPPORT

 

WAS NOT TRUE 

 

......DESPITE 30 mails being received and answered

 

 

 

 

 

So:

 

 

GELO29 -  NIE JESTES KLAMCA !! 

 

JESTEŚ CZŁOWIEKIEM KTÓRY PISZĄC O BRAKU POMOCY Z MOJEJ STRONY MINĄŁ SIĘ Z PRAWDA 

PODAJĄC NIEPRAWDZIWE INFORMACJE NA FORUM

 

I ŻYCZĘ CI DUZO SZCZĘŚCIA i ZDROWIA

 

Oczywiście ciesze się na spotkanie w sadzie 🙂 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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You know, of all threads that should bring happy Atarians together, you would have thought the re-release of this awesome upgrade would have been it.

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Exactly my thoughts too, getting bloody solicitors involved and arguing over case and PCB mods... I bet Candle and Lotharek are thinking 'what the hell was the point?'

 

Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves! 

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I've got a simple question.  Am I to understand that in Colleen mode (800) that the loader can only handle .xex images and not .dsk images?  All the .dsk images are hidden when I turn on the Colleen profile.

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7 minutes ago, Tempest said:

I've got a simple question.  Am I to understand that in Colleen mode (800) that the loader can only handle .xex images and not .dsk images?  All the .dsk images are hidden when I turn on the Colleen profile.

Yep.  Just checked to answer.  In Colleen mode, .atr files are not visible in the loader menus.  In that configuration, I guess you'd have to make a real floppy, or use an sio2pc device.

 

best,

 

jeff

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Tempest said:

Am I to understand that in Colleen mode (800) that the loader can only handle .xex images and not .dsk images?

You are, yes.

20 minutes ago, Tempest said:

All the .dsk images are hidden when I turn on the Colleen profile.

This is because mounting of disk images (.ATR files) is handled by the PBI BIOS, and the 800 OS does not support PBI handlers of any kind (since the 800 pre-dates the XL/XE OS which first supported them). The loader only displays ATR files after it has first established that there is a PBI handler present, and there is never any PBI handler present in Colleen mode.

 

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29 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

You are, yes.

This is because mounting of disk images (.ATR files) is handled by the PBI BIOS, and the 800 OS does not support PBI handlers of any kind (since the 800 pre-dates the XL/XE OS which first supported them). The loader only displays ATR files after it has first established that there is a PBI handler present, and there is never any PBI handler present in Colleen mode.

 

Oh, I was having trouble with my sd+cf adapters on the U1MB and, to a near disabling extent, the Incognito, was related to the Recall folder option in the SIde Loader menu.  I disabled this and I only very rarely need to CTRL+D to refresh the disks.  This is evident in the XL's by a flakiness, losing sync with the disk table, needing refresh and being stubborn about doing one, but not terribly often.  With Incognito, the loader would not work at all until you navigated to the root of the device tree (or to the Apt partition), selected that with Return, and then did your CTRL-D.  That would work nearly every time.  Disabling the Recall folder option kills alls that for both, but is revelatory for the Incognito.


Best,

 

Jeff

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36 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

You are, yes.

This is because mounting of disk images (.ATR files) is handled by the PBI BIOS, and the 800 OS does not support PBI handlers of any kind (since the 800 pre-dates the XL/XE OS which first supported them). The loader only displays ATR files after it has first established that there is a PBI handler present, and there is never any PBI handler present in Colleen mode.

 

Gotcha.  That makes sense.  Looks like I can't put my disk drive away quite yet. :)  Then again I can't think of many (if any) disk based games that don't work on the XL/XE, it was mostly the cartridge games that seemed to have problems.

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To follow up on my capacitive "button" placement:

 

Because the light pipe really is a convenient place for a button, I got rid of the copper tape and wrapped a couple turns of my sensor wire around the light pipe, then put a dab of soft hot glue down to hold the wire in place.

 

Now I place my finger on the top of the light pipe and it activates! I didn't really play around with sensing parameters because my first try seemed to work well. Touching the side of the light pipe "button" doesn't activate the switch--only a direct touch in the middle of the light pipe will. It even works with small fingers. I had my daughter give it a go too.

 

Sensor wire.jpg

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This is all FlashJazzCat's fault.  I shipped an Incognito 800 to Vegas and it got all crushed.  I was sure I put enough firmware into it before I shipped, it still worked when I got it back, so its still in there somewhere, but it doesn't prevent FedEx from smashing things.  Good thing he doesn't list this on his 'Features', but I still think the term "Firm"-Ware is misleading, possibly actionable.

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20191219_203414.jpg

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3 hours ago, Jeffrey Worley said:

This is all FlashJazzCat's fault.  I shipped an Incognito 800 to Vegas and it got all crushed.  I was sure I put enough firmware into it before I shipped, it still worked when I got it back, so its still in there somewhere, but it doesn't prevent FedEx from smashing things.  Good thing he doesn't list this on his 'Features', but I still think the term "Firm"-Ware is misleading, possibly actionable.

🤭

20191219_203414.jpg

That is the worst damage I've ever seen on an 800. :-o:_(  It's also the worst gluing job I've ever seen.:o:rolling:

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I don't know if it is the right thread to ask because there are several threads on Incognito since Lotharek offers new boards.

I would like to know if the Incognito sold by Lotharek has the fixes in the firmware (the fixes made by Candle several month ago).

Sorry if this question has already been answered.

 

And second question: In @flashjazzcat's video and on all other installation picture galleries,  I don't see the mod to bring PHY2 to the left cartridge port as explained by @tf_hh.

Does it mean that this mod is not anymore relevant when installing an incognito or should it be also made even when Incognito is in the place?

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On 12/22/2019 at 10:05 PM, Gunstar said:

That is the worst damage I've ever seen on an 800. :-o:_(  It's also the worst gluing job I've ever seen.:o:rolling:

 

Yes, I concur.

 

Based on the evidence shown on the image, the likely pont-of-impact was the bottom-left corner (where you see a large hole on there). From there, and upon impact, energy dissipated upwards, on the left-side panels, shattering them (the box was most likely thrown-and-dropped at some point).

 

That bottom-end corner of the 800 is REALLY, REALLY hard.  The hardest and sturdiest of the entire shelf. If I were to drop my 800 (corner-down) in top of 800XL, it would probably brake in half the 800XL case, before both getting damaged.

 

Therefore, all this suggests that 800 was brutalized.

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I have found a strange thing.

 

The wiring for the jack on the Incognito seemed to me to be just right.  Pin 1 to SPST Switch, pin 2 to led anode and to other side of SPST switch, and pin 3 to the led Cathode.  This works well to deliver a hard disk activity led, so why when I push the SPST switch to earth pin 1 and trigger a disk swap, it does nothing?

 

After a lot of fiddling, I tripped over the very counterintuitive fact that the only way to trigger a disk swap is to earth, and I mean EARTH, (not the ground pin 2 provides, but rather to the ground plane of the machine) the Cathode of the Led, pin 3!  How strange is that?

 

So, my revised circuit, though it makes no sense to me, is:

 

Pin 1 -- NC

Pin 2 -- LED Anode

Pin 3 -- Led Cathode and to one side of SW1 (SPST momentary)

             Opposite side of SW1 connects to the shield of the Atari 800.  (I've used a little piece of copper foil tape to fix this lead in place).

 

Now, when I press the momentary, it triggers the correct behavior.

 

Weirdly, during my examination of this problem, I found that earthing pin 1 will cause strange behavior.

 

Also, as regards bug fixes or upgrades, I'm pretty doggone satisfied.  Here's some strange behavior I've noted common to all five of my Incognito 800's:

 

1)  It has become habitual to me during use that my first action at a 'frozen' screen is to hit the BREAK key.  This seems to wake the machine up considerably and frequently continues things without need for further intervention.  This behavior is best examined in the Side Loader, where it can be replicated fairly well by mapping .atr files to drive numbers.  The process of mapping several drives, like for the 1meg raytracing demo, may seem to hang, freeze at some point.  Several attempts may be needed, but when the hang occurs, hit BREAK and all of a sudden the drives will populate on the screen, or at least the system be restored so you can continue mapping as though nothing went wrong.  This behavior also happens in other, odd, places during system operation, but it was inside the Side loader menu that I noticed and regularized it such that it became habit to try this before other, more drastic measures.  It often works.  Any diagnosis on my part is mostly guesswork, but here's my two cents:  The XL and 800 process interrupts a little differently.  All my machines, incidentally, have the original 6502b CPU boards.  This may have some bearing?

 

2)  Earthing pin 2 will cause wierd behavior you don't want.  It seems the right thing, improve the ground right?  No.  Don't do this.  Earthing pin 1 will cause wierd behavior when trying to map drives, even though it doesn't swap drives, the pin appears to have some connection with the process.  So, eventually, I realized pin 1 is to be left unconnected.

 

Having seen the gamut of upgrades from the Rambo to the Black Box, the Incognito lives up to every claim and even every expectation.  It is an astonishing product I'm gleeful to get to play with.  Thanks Candle!  Thanks Lotharek!,  oh, and thanks to that other guy too, the squishy firmware guy Flashjazzcat! ;-)  Note, due to vastly improved packing methods, our firmware now occupies less than 1/15th the volume.  We regret the effect this will have on treadwear.

 

Best,

 

 

Jeff

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jeffrey Worley
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Jon - this "freezing" bit sounds to me like the issue we diagnosed last summer in beta testing XLD firmware. Turned out my CF card had a badly scrambled directory table, probably due to me adding and deleting hundreds of megs of files at a time. Once I reformatted the card and wrote out all the files anew, the problem went away. In other words, the issue wasn't the firmware, it was my card. 

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That issue was a keyboard input lag caused by the getfirst/getnext routines used during the loader's recursive search not returning until they had retrieved a valid filename from a directory full of large blocks of deleted filenames. The problem as described here is a little vague but appears to concern ATR mounting, and a mount operation does not directly entail reading FAT directories. The involvement of the BREAK key is rather puzzling as well, since when the PBI BIOS detects the OS break flag is set, it does nothing but clear the flag and exit with error code $80.

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On 12/27/2019 at 5:14 PM, ebiguy said:

I would like to know if the Incognito sold by Lotharek has the fixes in the firmware (the fixes made by Candle several month ago).

Yes: new boards ship with the updated JED, as far as I'm aware.

On 12/27/2019 at 5:14 PM, ebiguy said:

And second question: In @flashjazzcat's video and on all other installation picture galleries,  I don't see the mod to bring PHY2 to the left cartridge port as explained by @tf_hh.

I never gave this mod a moment's thought. However, I don't think Incognito could physically overcome the problem of a signal not being routed to the left cart port, so I imagine the mod is still relevant.

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