johndias Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 I've been working on this 410, cleaning, replace belts, etc. REW, FF work but I cannot for the life of me get the PLAY to stay down when I press it. I can't even see how the key mechanism would latch, like I can see on the other keys. Any pointers are appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 Probably within the tape mechanism itself rather than near direct to the button. A possibility could be that there's a spring that's either not attached or lost it's tension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndias Posted August 11, 2019 Author Share Posted August 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Rybags said: Probably within the tape mechanism itself rather than near direct to the button. A possibility could be that there's a spring that's either not attached or lost it's tension. Thanks, I took another look after reading your reply. There's a white bar that is pushed by a spring to lock the FF,RW and PLAY into place. It looks to me like there's just a little loss of tension on that spring causing it to not fully lock the play. Now, to find that spring for sale! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 The bar looks bound up with fiber in it's slide path... the switch to left that connects to the bar can be tweaked, it doesn't look like it's making full contact, the spring can be taken out and re-tension-ed pulling it apart slightly... it's doubtful it 'lost' tension some how unless it was put away in the play position for 40 years and being subjected to heat and cold... anything is possible so stretching it slight will do just fine... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndias Posted August 11, 2019 Author Share Posted August 11, 2019 19 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: The bar looks bound up with fiber in it's slide path... the switch to left that connects to the bar can be tweaked, it doesn't look like it's making full contact, the spring can be taken out and re-tension-ed pulling it apart slightly... it's doubtful it 'lost' tension some how unless it was put away in the play position for 40 years and being subjected to heat and cold... anything is possible so stretching it slight will do just fine... I'll give that a shot! Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndias Posted August 11, 2019 Author Share Posted August 11, 2019 No dice. I think the spring's got plenty of tension though. I'm starting to think that there is wear on the plastics that allowing it to slip. I haven't pulled the sliders out, but I did get in there with a pick and tried to remove any dirt and fibers, it moves freely. Maybe I should get another one for parts and try replacing that lower slider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drpeter Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 (edited) I had the same problem with a 410, but with the original version (with aluminium carrying handle). In my case, it was to do with the autostop mechanism that automatically turns off play or record when reaching the end of a tape. In the original 410, this works through a small pivoting bar, the tip of one end of which is held under spring tension against the tape as it runs past the play/record heads. When the tape is running freely, it passes over the tip of the bar without depressing it. When the tape snaps taut when play has reached the end of the tape, this pulls the tape tight over the tip of the bar, overcoming the spring tension and causing it to pivot. Via a linkage mechanism, that pulls a lug into the path of a knob rotating on the main flywheel of the drive mechanism. When the two collide, that trips the mechanism which disengages the play/record keys. Problem in my case was that the pivoting bar had become stuck in the 'tripping' position due to loss of lubrication. Solution- dismantle and lubricate the pivot. Not sure if the mechanism is the same on the newer 410. There were a variety of different mechanisms to sense and trip tape-ending back in the day, although this was a popular mechanical one prior to everything becoming electronically-controlled. Edited August 12, 2019 by drpeter 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drpeter Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 It looks from your photo that this might be the equivalent mechanism... Does it seem to be free-pivoting? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndias Posted August 14, 2019 Author Share Posted August 14, 2019 14 hours ago, drpeter said: It looks from your photo that this might be the equivalent mechanism... Does it seem to be free-pivoting? Thanks, that's helpful - so I looked into that part and it seems to be OK, but of course having no reference with a working one I'm not sure. Here are two pics, one with the play button "up" and the other with me holding it "down" - the mechanism looks to be moving freely (and I was able to move it with a metal pick tool). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drpeter Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 Ah. Now that I see it from this angle, this looks more like the pivot on my machine, the end of which which should be held out proud of the heads under spring tension as indicated by the green arrow. Perhaps! Try seeing if this is moving freely? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drpeter Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 (edited) This shows something about how the mechanism is supposed to work. Under certain circumstances (presumably when PLAY is not depressed) the tip of the long left white plastic arm is held away from the tape by the black plastic lug pushing the shorter right white arm forward (red arrow). When pressure from this lug is released, presumably when PLAY is depressed and the whole central black plastic plate (with text on) mounting the play head and pivot slides forward, the spring pulls in the short central white plastic arm (yellow arrow) pivoting the long left white plastic arm forward (green arrow), into contact with the black circular runner mechanism we discussed before (white arrow), pushing this forward against the running tape. How the 'trip' mechanism to autostop the tape operates can't be seen from here, but must be triggered by the taut tape suddenly pushing back the long left white plastic arm/black circular runner slightly. In the photos you posted, it looks as though the whole mechanism is only moving slightly when PLAY is depressed. Is the PLAY head itself moving far enough forward, do you think? Forgot to ask- does the PLAY key just trip when there is power to the tape motor and the tape tries to move forward (which is what happens with a faulty autostop) or is it under all circumstances? Hope this helps. Difficult without a mechanism in front of me... Edited August 14, 2019 by drpeter 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndias Posted August 14, 2019 Author Share Posted August 14, 2019 It's not staying in at all, no power and no tape. Very occasionally I can get it to stick but it is very tenuous even then. Thanks for that deep dive, I'll pull it apart this evening and see if I can clean it up. As I recall, that mechanism was a bit stiff. I was trying to avoid tearing it all down as I was afraid I'd make things worse, but I think this is going to be necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 (edited) If you do tear it down remember to take a few pictures to show where stuff was before doing it......They are a gods end... Edited August 14, 2019 by Mclaneinc 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drpeter Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 (edited) 47 minutes ago, johndias said: It's not staying in at all, no power and no tape. Very occasionally I can get it to stick but it is very tenuous even then. Thanks for that deep dive, I'll pull it apart this evening and see if I can clean it up. As I recall, that mechanism was a bit stiff. I was trying to avoid tearing it all down as I was afraid I'd make things worse, but I think this is going to be necessary. I managed to dismantle the pivot assembly without removing the playback head, but that wasn't on your model.... and I could be barking up entirely the wrong tree. May be nothing to do with the autostop mechanism. The field manual for your model of 410 ominously recommends a new 410 as the solution for a PLAY key failing to engage... ? Perhaps someone with a 'later version' 410 could quickly comment on whether the PLAY key should engage and stay depressed when disconnected from power & the Atari? If it IS anything to do with stiffness in that pivot, which was held in place with a split washer in my case, a clean up and tiniest smidgeon of oil applied with a split matchstick did the trick for me... Not sure exactly what the red/orange disc is in your version. You might get away with just applying a smidgeon of oil to the tip of the central pin without dismantling and working the mechanism back and forth.... Edited August 14, 2019 by drpeter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndias Posted August 15, 2019 Author Share Posted August 15, 2019 23 hours ago, drpeter said: I managed to dismantle the pivot assembly without removing the playback head, but that wasn't on your model.... and I could be barking up entirely the wrong tree. May be nothing to do with the autostop mechanism. The field manual for your model of 410 ominously recommends a new 410 as the solution for a PLAY key failing to engage... ? Perhaps someone with a 'later version' 410 could quickly comment on whether the PLAY key should engage and stay depressed when disconnected from power & the Atari? If it IS anything to do with stiffness in that pivot, which was held in place with a split washer in my case, a clean up and tiniest smidgeon of oil applied with a split matchstick did the trick for me... Not sure exactly what the red/orange disc is in your version. You might get away with just applying a smidgeon of oil to the tip of the central pin without dismantling and working the mechanism back and forth.... I have tested powered and connected to my 400. It doesn't stay down, but if I hold it down the tape will actually play when using CLOAD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drpeter Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 Sorry, can't suggest anything else at this stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndias Posted August 16, 2019 Author Share Posted August 16, 2019 On 8/15/2019 at 9:37 AM, drpeter said: Sorry, can't suggest anything else at this stage. No worries, thanks for the help! I did break it down and clean everything - no dice. At this point I really feel like the plastic post that is supposed to be held in by the white retainer slider thingy is just slightly worn enough to not fully catch. I'm writing this off and searching for another one on eBay - maybe between two of them I can get a working program recorder! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 if you feel the post is worn down you can see it and or feel it, you could fill it in or surround it with a binding agent of some kind. plastic fill etc. use a straw or similar shaping form... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndias Posted August 18, 2019 Author Share Posted August 18, 2019 (edited) Hmm, wonder if I can put a bit of heat shrink tubing over it. I may try that, although I wonder if it will cause problems with de-latching. Edited August 18, 2019 by johndias Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 If you want to build up a surface, maybe try one of the UV curing glue pens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 heat shrink is not hard enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndias Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 So I finally ordered another 410 to cannibalize and since it had a working STOP button, I pulled the "keeper" bar from it installed it in my original. And it worked! I see no visual difference between the two but that seems to have been the problem - some slight wearing of the plastic I guess. This is the bad part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 The edges are not sharp, you can try super glue and baking soda to build it slightly back up and then file to shape or you could use jb weld plastic product... looks rounded to me at each hook but some slightly more than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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