Atari 400/800 paint colour.

[Mr Robot]

I asked this in the pinned restoring old cases thread but no one answered, I guess no one reads that any more. 

 

Does anyone have a good paint match for the Atari 800 colours? I found the right ones for XL/XE cases in the restoration thread but there is no mention of colours for the 400/800 series. 

 

 

[adam1977]

Perifractic restored a 400 and bought some paint from a local Walmart I think, i'll have a look through his videos and see if I can find the episode 

 

Edit: I think this is the video: 

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by adam1977
Found the link

[Colleton]

That was my thought as well.  The color is a good match, but you can see the difference between the painted upper shell and the unpainted lower shell later in the video.  I used this video as a guide for upgrading the audio/video in my 400.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by Colleton

[Faicuai]

Pardon my interjection, here but... 

 

...the final fish / materials of the outer shell of these machines should NEVER. EVER be painted.

 

You would be MUCH better off by simply disassembling them, carefully, extracting the plastic covers, cleaning them up really well with a good (but non abrasive) detergent and leaving them under natural sun-light's UV for 1-3 days (with periodic cooling / fresh-water spraying, to thermally protect plastics), depending on the intensity of UV radiation on your area.

 

And that would be all for a more authentic color and true-to-OEM surface finish and texture. The 400/800 plastics are (definitely) made of a higher-grade formulation or coloring than ALL of my 800XLs... Where the 400 / 800 surface retains closer-to-original color after controlled UV-treatment, my 800XLs re-yellow under the exact same conditions...

 

A painted finish will always be... a painted notorious one, no matter what we do or say...

 

Just my 0.02c...

Edited August 24, 2019 by Faicuai

[Mr Robot]

1 hour ago, Faicuai said:

the outer shell of these machines should NEVER. EVER be painted

I agree...

 

Which I guess makes my question somewhat odd.

 

Well, I don't own a 400/800 or XE series Atari, it's easy for me to find pictures of them online but they vary in colour from almost XL beige to light brown depending on the light, age of the machine, skill of the photographer. That makes finding an accurate colour for art projects, 3d printing etc etc extremely hard not having a known accurate reference. 

 

On top of that, I'm colourblind, so it all looks the same to me unless I hold it next to something else and even then working out exactly why its not the same is near impossible for me. I rely heavily on computers to augment my colour perception. 

 

If I can get accurate colours; ones that non-colourblind people; experts in collecting and restoring these things, all agree is a very close/perfect match for the original colour, I can paint things those colours, scan and photograph them, feed that into a computer and get an accurate reference colour set. 

 

[Faicuai]

34 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

I agree...

 

Which I guess makes my question somewhat odd.

 

Well, I don't own a 400/800 or XE series Atari, it's easy for me to find pictures of them online but they vary in colour from almost XL beige to light brown depending on the light, age of the machine, skill of the photographer. That makes finding an accurate colour for art projects, 3d printing etc etc extremely hard not having a known accurate reference. 

 

On top of that, I'm colourblind, so it all looks the same to me unless I hold it next to something else and even then working out exactly why its not the same is near impossible for me. I rely heavily on computers to augment my colour perception. 

 

If I can get accurate colours; ones that non-colourblind people; experts in collecting and restoring these things, all agree is a very close/perfect match for the original colour, I can paint things those colours, scan and photograph them, feed that into a computer and get an accurate reference colour set. 

 

Check this out, brand NEW, never used:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/183924274445

 

Click on "Original listing" then see pictures... pretty close to what it really is...

[xrbrevin]

why do RF cables always have white on them...?

[Mr Robot]

2 hours ago, Faicuai said:

pretty close to what it really is...

Which one? 

[+DrVenkman]

Exactly. The forum has been round and round on this before. No one's memory is perfect, despite what they may think. Case plastics are not uniform and do vary in how they react over time depending on the vagaries of chemistry, environmental exposure to ultraviolet radiation, household cleaning products, whatever ... Sadly, Atari's own printed materials are little help, nor are magazine photos. The lighting is not uniform, the color balance and exposures are all different. 

 

So any effort to paint an Atari will give you results that may or may not match any particular person's personal recollection, the images in one particular catalog or magazine article, or whatever. Unless Curt ever unveils the engineering design specs for the original 1979 case plastics (preferably with a Pantone number) we'll never objectively know what color they were originally with 100% certainty, and all the capitalized assertions and opinions passed off as Truth!™ won't change that. 

[_The Doctor__]

1 hour ago, xrbrevin said:

why do RF cables always have white on them...?

there is an interaction between the cable and the Styrofoam... the Styrofoam goop is the white stuff, it generally hardens over time.

[Faicuai]

5 hours ago, Mr Robot said:

Which one? 

Answer:

 

ALL of them. You know your question is a bit rhetorical, in the sense that you already know the answer (putting aside color blindness which is quite a different issue, of course): what you see there is the SAME color under the effect of different lighting conditions, that's all. Notice the that white foam is coming out relatively white (with little hints of tint) clearly suggesting that a reasonable white-balance has been achieved by the camera taking the picture.

 

The closest all-round color is on the region between the far left circle and the small center circle underneath the door latch. 

 

Here's another look, at multiple lighting conditions, different machine (much to the contrary, there is no real mystery about the classical beige / kaki color of these machines, nor magical or unpredictable variances, nor impossible-to-decipher colors, they all look about the same, depending on how much incident light you get on the surface. Notice the warmer tone of the whites: 

 

 

Later on, I will show you another picture with morning sunlight, and a magazine pint (full-spread) next to the real thing. I promise it will be revealing...

Edited August 25, 2019 by Faicuai

[Sugarland]

The auction stated that the 400 was stored in a garage for a long time. "this belong to my uncle who had it in the garage since the 80s." The heat in a garage can and does change the plastic color though this one does look nice. Looking at those 400 photos on my color calibrated LCD, I'd say that 400 has yellowed some.  Still a beauty!

[Mr Robot]

9 hours ago, Faicuai said:

what you see there is the SAME color under the effect of different lighting conditions

Yes, yes, that is kind of the point I'm making. What is the RGB value (or CMYK, or HSL) of that colour? What color would I have to paint a thing to make it the same colour as that 400 under the same lighting conditions?

 

This is why I need a reference (say, a paint can colour) to actually compare to other things in similar lighting. I don't own the real thing, and given the way plastics yellow I can't even know my 400/800 would be right even if I got one. 

[Gunstar]

If it is just a matter of attempting to return the computer or peripheral to the original MINT color, then I agree that paint should never be used, UV it or retro-bright, etc.. But, for example, I have an 810 drive that has cosmetic damage I have repaired and had a caustic substance spilled on it, and if I want to get it back to looking new, I am forced to paint, so I have been curious lately about finding a matching color myself. Also, I make matching cases for devices I buy without cases or for DIY projects and need to know the right color to make them match as well. There are definitely times when painting is the only alternative. Another example is my custom 1200XL with my DIY PBI port. I had to find a matching color (which I did) for the off-white/creme color of the XL livery.

 

As to choosing the right color, most everyone is right, all you can do is a best-match with the rest of the equipment you own, under the same lighting conditions. I usually take a part with me to the store to make a best match and that's all you can do. My 1200XL isn't a perfect match, but then again, not all of my unpainted XL equipment is a perfect match either, it all probably needs another UV treatment, and my 1200XL is slightly lighter, so I think it would match more closely after UV treatment on other equipment (All barely yellowed, so I have not wanted to bother, but none matches perfectly). But depending on the time of day or night and the lighting in the room, sometimes it all looks like it matches perfectly! And not just under darker or brighter conditions, just different light from the time of day or the indoor lighting or mix!

Edited August 25, 2019 by Gunstar

[Mr Robot]

The Krylon 4291 Camouflage Khaki used in the videos up the top there looks really close but I have a problem with it being 'ultraflat'. Plastics aren't flat colours, Ataris have a texture which stops them from shining but there is still a slight lustre. I'd say satin was a better shine level than flat, but again, I don't own a 400/800 so I can't look to compare.  

 

The restoration thread is many pages long and it seems to be entirely XE/XL based, does no one repair/restore old 400/800's?

[Mr Robot]

12 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

I had to find a matching color (which I did) for the off-white/creme color of the XL livery.

In the restoration thread Rust-oleum Painters Touch Satin Heirloom White #249076 is the agreed colour, what colour did you use?

[Gunstar]

4 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

The Krylon 4291 Camouflage Khaki used in the videos up the top there looks really close but I have a problem with it being 'ultraflat'. Plastics aren't flat colours, Ataris have a texture which stops them from shining but there is still a slight lustre. I'd say satin was a better shine level than flat, but again, I don't own a 400/800 so I can't look to compare.  

 

The restoration thread is many pages long and it seems to be entirely XE/XL based, does no one repair/restore old 400/800's?

I agree, I tried flat once on some XE equipment and didn't like it. For my XL white, I use Rust-Oleum Heirloom White in a satin, and then I used a matte clear coat, which best matched the "sheen" I got off my un-painted XL plastics.

 

EDIT: just saw your reply, and yes, I think I was the first to recommend 249076. I shared it on several sites when I shared pictures of my 1200XL.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Gunstar

[Faicuai]

On 8/25/2019 at 10:14 AM, Mr Robot said:

Yes, yes, that is kind of the point I'm making. What is the RGB value (or CMYK, or HSL) of that colour? What color would I have to paint a thing to make it the same colour as that 400 under the same lighting conditions?

 

This is why I need a reference (say, a paint can colour) to actually compare to other things in similar lighting. I don't own the real thing, and given the way plastics yellow I can't even know my 400/800 would be right even if I got one. 

Here you go, exactly same unit I have posted before. These ones are very good / close calls, under slightly cooler K-temp natural light (mid-morning):

 

[Mr Robot]

*sigh* you're not getting it.

 

What colour is that? 

 

The front panel on those two 800's (the bit where it says Atari 800) are vastly different colours, I know it's the same colour and the lighting/shadows+temperature makes them look different but from this picture I have no way of working out what the right colour is

 

That Atari's case is a single colour and lighting/shadow give it form. What colour is it? RGB, Pantone, RAS, HSV, CMYK any of those will do but as a colourblind person I need numbers.

 

I cannot perceive the colours correctly. For example, If I draw a human, I tend to give them green skin. I cannot see the difference in the red/green hues. I can tell that there is a difference between the green I used and the pink I should have used if held next to each other, but I cant tell why, and unless i held those two colours up against the actual human I was drawing, I couldn't tell you which was the right one. Even if I did that it's 50/50 whether I'd get it right or not.

 

I cannot walk down the paint isle with a picture of an Atari 400 and hold it up against the paints and work out which can is the right one (I tried it yesterday) to my eyes about half the beige/khaki/green/greys on the shelf could have been right if looked at in the right light.

 

[Faicuai]

7 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

*sigh* you're not getting it.

 

What colour is that? 

 

The front panel on those two 800's (the bit where it says Atari 800) are vastly different colours, I know it's the same colour and the lighting/shadows+temperature makes them look different but from this picture I have no way of working out what the right colour is

 

That Atari's case is a single colour and lighting/shadow give it form. What colour is it? RGB, Pantone, RAS, HSV, CMYK any of those will do but as a colourblind person I need numbers.

 

I cannot perceive the colours correctly. For example, If I draw a human, I tend to give them green skin. I cannot see the difference in the red/green hues. I can tell that there is a difference between the green I used and the pink I should have used if held next to each other, but I cant tell why, and unless i held those two colours up against the actual human I was drawing, I couldn't tell you which was the right one. Even if I did that it's 50/50 whether I'd get it right or not.

 

I cannot walk down the paint isle with a picture of an Atari 400 and hold it up against the paints and work out which can is the right one (I tried it yesterday) to my eyes about half the beige/khaki/green/greys on the shelf could have been right if looked at in the right light.

 

 

Will try to capture this with the pro-camera (under bounced flash-light), in raw, tagged with ProPhoto RGB (source), and then give you a readout in any destination color-space you may prefer (just let me know which reading you would like). I will check on my photo-editing (calibrated) EIZO monitor.

 

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Faicuai

[Mr Robot]

Heres a thing... 

 

Are these three the same colour? This is Krylon Matt, Satin and Gloss Khaki, apparently the matt one is Atari 400/800 khaki.

 

 

And just so you can see that this is impossible for people with poor colour perception, these two are the same colour, one swatch from Amazon, the Other from Home Depot, this is Rust-Oleum's Khaki. How does that compare to Krylons? How about to The Atari? How do they even compare to each other!

 

 

[Faicuai]

8 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

Heres a thing... 

 

Are these three the same colour? This is Krylon Matt, Satin and Gloss Khaki, apparently the matt one is Atari 400/800 khaki.

 

 

And just so you can see that this is impossible for people with poor colour perception, these two are the same colour, one swatch from Amazon, the Other from Home Depot, this is Rust-Oleum's Khaki. How does that compare to Krylons? How about to The Atari? How do they even compare to each other!

 

 

 

It seems clear that starting from a synthetic color-reference (such as those you posted) will only lead to uncertainty, even more so with color blindness. In the particular case of your samples, the last one comes pretty close to the real thing under morning-window light.

 

However, the starting point should always be a reliable capture of the real object (in a reasonable color-state), under controlled conditions (one light source + temp, known and wide color space, and correct white-balance for chosen light), while ending with a terminal RGB readout on the color-space of your choice (I would prefer via Perceptual-colorimetric conversion).

 

It seems pointless arguing about "original color variances", "finish-to-finish" differences, because resorting to this argument (variables out of your control) means this task could NEVER be accomplished, and that is not true (imagine all those contractors out there, performing day-in, day-out painting and finishing repairs on homes with all kinds of paints, resorting to these arguments... Instead, they just peel off a bit of paint, and take it Lowe's and Home Depot... and voila. It gets formulated and replicated, as is, with the above process).

 

Now, if we invite everyone (under a common method) to CAPTURE and SHOW what their machines look, assuming the are in pristine condition, well maintained, etc., that would certainly enrich the reference-pool (and make your job even more certain).

 

In the absence of all that, we can only go for what a good past-published print looks, as well as what the real object looks like (colorimetrically), today.

[+DrVenkman]

This is the same exact debate some of us have had over and over. Without a Pantone code or something substantially functionally the same, we will never know objectively what the “correct” color was when new.

 

But good luck trying to convince people who believe otherwise. 
 

(ASIDE: this is distressingly similar to every monitor color calibration thread, especially if it involves comparisons between CRT and modern flat panel displays. *sigh*) 

[Faicuai]

6 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

(...) what the “correct” color was when new. (...)

 

Wrong and unrealistic premise.

 

It is a rhetorical question, by definition. Even so, ALL color variants and deviations introduced by manufacturers (beyond the original specs.) will have to be taken into account as well (and those are impossible to know).

 

Much more realistic is to wonder about a perceptual-average, today, under some specific conditions (and checked against past material evidence, and collective perception, as well).

 

Exactly the same perspective can be held when evaluating color rendition from these machines on any device, as there is clear (and written) perceptual evidence of what they were.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Faicuai

[Gavin1968]

I am just trying to paint my SDrive-MAX cases to look like the original Atari 800. LOL I am leaving my machine paint free for sure