What if?????

[RichardElric]

I once read that in 1951, while working at Loral Electronics, Ralph Baer was claims that he first got the idea of building something into the TV set for the owner to control, rather than just watching TV. In real life, he did not go through with the idea, but it came back to him in 1966, while waiting for a bus. 

 

So my question for everyone is this: what if Baer had gone through the idea back in 1951 rather than in 1966? How would the video game industry would be different?

[+stupus]

We would have got really cool 50s and 60s videogames. With probably amazing packaging

[RichardElric]

Maybe a Beatles game?

[128Kgames]

Nah, it just means Skynet would become self aware and start Judgement Day that much sooner...

[fiddlepaddle]

Sorry...cold water coming...

I doubt the technology required for Pong (or especially anything microprocessor based) would have been commercially viable much earlier. Maybe Space War at MIT (?I think that's where it was invented?) would have come 15 years earlier, though.

Contrary to popular belief, the "idea" part of commercial invention is really only a small part of the equation.

[Newsdee]

Some of the early successes were not because of technical availability, but because somebody figured out how to save costs on producing the game machines. That in turn enabled decent margins for a business to run with.

 

I forgot the exact name, but there was a prototype of Space Wars prepared for arcade / coin-op, but it ended up not being used after Bushnell and co. came up with Computer Space which was much cheaper to produce by an order of magnitude.

 

Its possible for an idea to live as prototype or on paper for a very long time. A very extreme example would be Babbage's Difference Engine...

Edited August 27, 2019 by Newsdee

[carlsson]

For a little bit of context, if we ignore the very first transistor based computers in c:a 1953-54, still filling most part of a room, the first commercial transistorized calculator is thought to be the IBM 608, announced in April 1955 and released in December 1957. It contained 3000 transistors, could do 4500 additions per second and only cost $83,000 plus $44,000 for the accompanying card reader. As you can see from the PDF linked on Wikipedia, it was the size of a good cupboard. Sure, back then TV sets (which were in the price range of $250-300 for a large one) were entire cupboards too so perhaps the two could've been combined into one huge piece of furniture.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_608
https://www.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/vintage/vintage_4506VV2214.html

 

I agree with the comments above, that the advent of an idea before it is practically possible is not worth more than the idea itself. Even with mass manufacturing and cost cutting, I can't imagine any TV game in the late 1950's to be below $5000 (6% of what the IBM calculator cost), or about 1.5 years worth of average income of the day.

[RichardElric]

To be honest,I think that they may be more Odyssey like consoles out on the market than in real life. Maybe around the late 60s we might see things like pong TV games 

[carlsson]

To add a few more data points:

 

The first transistorized TV was the Sony TV8-301W from 1959/1960 with subsequent models in the following years. It had an 8" tube, launched at $249 and sold fairly well. For the same amount of money, you could instead get a 17" B&W or an 21" RCA in colour for $495.

 

As mentioned in the Wikipedia article about Ralph Baer, he mentioned in an interview 2007 that he (by 1966?) recognized that TV prices had gone down which opened for a potential market. Still it took them five years to get to a product and find someone to sell it to, even in an era possibly more mature to the concept. I believe that should be considered too, the earlier product, the harder it would be to market and sell so those theoretic ~15 years soon would be down to 10 or perhaps not more than 5 years, if they would withstand development and pitching the product for so long before giving up.

 

If it wasn't for him, surely someone else would have come up with the idea of displaying data to a TV screen, even micro processor based. My bet would be on Joseph Weisbecker after reading about him in the RCA Studio II thread.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

What if...

 

Spartacus had a Piper Cub?

 

[Keatah]

On 8/26/2019 at 5:07 PM, RichardElric said:

So my question for everyone is this: what if Baer had gone through the idea back in 1951 rather than in 1966? How would the video game industry would be different?

 

We'd be that many years more advanced than we are today.

[mbd30]

Computer tech wasn't great in the 50s and 60s. It would have been "video games" similar to the original Magnavox Odyssey and nothing too spectacular. Video games could only progress as the tech progressed and became more affordable.

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

19 hours ago, mbd30 said:

Computer tech wasn't great in the 50s and 60s. It would have been "video games" similar to the original Magnavox Odyssey and nothing too spectacular. Video games could only progress as the tech progressed and became more affordable.

 

Could easily be argued that part of what has advanced tech over the years is the demand and need for such tech to the masses. So to @Keatah's point, we could very well be at a more advanced tech state today for not just video games, but many computers and electronics in general. An earlier demand for that tech would have caused more research being put into it and thus more advanced discoveries at an earlier rate? 

 

But again...What if?

 

[carlsson]

I think a lot of computer technology advancements were due to the space program, which of course took place all over the 60's. If not World War II had happened, perhaps the space race could have taken place sooner and all the other technology followed.

 

So yes, the slower development in video games probably is to blame on Adolf Hitler. (irony)

[pacman000]

On August 26, 2019 at 11:52 PM, Newsdee said:

Some of the early successes were not because of technical availability, but because somebody figured out how to save costs on producing the game machines. That in turn enabled decent margins for a business to run with.

 

I forgot the exact name, but there was a prototype of Space Wars prepared for arcade / coin-op, but it ended up not being used after Bushnell and co. came up with Computer Space which was much cheaper to produce by an order of magnitude.

 

Its possible for an idea to live as prototype or on paper for a very long time. A very extreme example would be Babbage's Difference Engine...

Galaxy Game?

[RichardElric]

On a related note, do you think that the CRT Amusement device, patented in 1947, would have made a difference in this is it was ever made available to the public?

[Razzie.P]

Console wars would have gotten an earlier start.

[Newsdee]

5 hours ago, pacman000 said:

Galaxy Game?

Yes! Thank you, I couldn't remember it.

 

The Wikipedia article is telling, explaining how they were driven by having a game superior to Spacewar (and it was), but simple economics doomed them. A Spacewars PCB costed $100 to make vs. the thousands needed for a PDP computer.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Newsdee

[Video]

To be fair, pong isn't complicated and can be (and has been) made with zero ic's. It could probably be done with a dedicated tube based computer, same tech as tv's of the time. The odyssey literally has different sized dots you drive around the screen, it keeps no score, or tracks even rudimentary hit detection. That's why it had overlays, it literally did nothing outside of track your movement.

 

in the 70's there were some tv's with pong built in, the 80's was them with nes's in them, and I know some in the 90's had genesis in them, probably snes too.

 

of course, there's the issue of, if one breaks, can you still use the other? Think of all those tv/dvd/vcr combo sets with a dead player in them.

[CatPix]

You can say that the Odyssey is simple, yet it's a rather electronically complex device. Sure it's order of magnitude more simple than even an electronic wristwatch, but there was more "brain" in an 1972 Odyssey that in the TV set it was plugged to.

Sure Baer made prototype with tubes, but tubes back in the day were expensive and fragile. It's why TV price went down in the 1970, by replacing the expensive (and large, power-eating, heating, etc...) tubes with transistors.

So it's very doubtful that a video game system would have been commercially available before the advent of solid state electronics. Technically possible? sure. Commercially viable? nope.

 

I think then, even if Baer had developped his idea 10 years before, it wouldn't have gone very far either as, from what you read in his memories, the Odyssey was basically ready to be produced by 1968/69, but the cost to manufacture the system was too high up to 1972.

[Video]

On yeah, I was just saying possible, not that it would be commercially viable.

 

I remember someone built a long console with nothing but resisters, so I know that can be done, depending on the console, those are all more complex than odyssey, as they all have at least bit detection between the ball and paddle/wall. I know, resisters are same era as ic, but simple enough it could have been done with tubes.

 

might have been retrothing, but that sites been defunct for years now.

[CatPix]

There is also PONGMECHANIK, which is made of telephone relays :

Relays were invented around 1850! Tho, the idea to use relays to make "computers" really started in the 1930's, with Konrad Zuse assembling the Z1 out of such relays.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z1_(computer)

So a "video" game (more like then, an electronical game, since there's no video made) would be possible from the late 30's.

[Keatah]

Videogame console consisting of resistors only? Bullshit.

[Video]

Uh, when it comes to pong, it can be done (and has been) entirely with clockwork. (Look up blip if you don't believe me) so no, doing pong with resistors, tubes, or even the dude directly above showed one made with relays isn't bullshit.

[CatPix]

5 hours ago, Keatah said:

Videogame console consisting of resistors only? Bullshit.

I second that. Maybe he meant transistors only. It would take a massive amount of them, but it can be done. Logic gates are just a bunch of transistors after all.

(You'd still need resistors tho ? )

Edited September 2, 2019 by CatPix