Games that should have been on Jaguar

[Lost Dragon]

I have no desire to put the boot into Darryl Still-he's a stand up, genuine guy who has time and time again taken time out to assist the Retro Community, but there are so many glaring issues with that 2 Million Pre-Orders claim for the Jaguar.

 

 

 

 

If Atari really had those sort of European Pre-Order numbers,  the software publishers would of known about them and started committing resources to producing games for all those Jaguar owners in waiting.

 

 

I've read an awful lot of interviews (and conducted a few of my own with some of them) with people from:

 

Core Design, Virgin,  Gremlin, US Gold, Tiertex,  Imagitec Design, Audiogenic,  Ubisoft,  Jeff Minter, Rebellion, ATD, Team 17,HMS etc and whilst all have stated why they wrore what they did, there was never any talk of this supposed 2 million potential user base out there.

 

 

Most major publishers were taking a wait and see approach before committing fully (if at all) to the platform and all you hear of is Sony had contacted them, informed them they were soon to enter the market with what would become known as the Playstation,  Sega and Nintendo were the current big players, Commodore on the way out and Atari had been fading fast for years.

 

 

Sorry Darryl but if back then you had evidence of 2 million Jaguar Pre-Orders for Europe alone, you'd of taken that to all the major software houses and used it to convince them to develop software for the Jaguar rather than say the Commodore CD32.

 

And they would of been aware of your claims.

 

There's been nothing from High Street chains-mail order companies or publishers to back up the numbers put forward....nothing.

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by Lost Dragon

[roots.genoa]

When I asked earlier "Were preorders even a thing at the time?", I meant that there were a lot less adult gamers. Children usually don't buy systems and I'm not sure parents preordered them a lot back in the day, especially since they had to do it in person in the shop. Also they would rather buy them for Christmas, not at launch.

I wish I could find preorder figures for current systems, but Nintendo Switch sold more than 2 million worldwide during its first month, and I really doubt that most of those who preordered had to wait a full month to get the system. Which means that probably less than 2 million people preordered it worldwide. So this "2 million Jaguar preorders for Europe alone" figure is ridiculous... If it was 20.000, it would have already been positive.

[Lost Dragon]

You make an excellent point there.

Darryl and RetroGamer Magazine are expecting us to believe throughout Europe 2 Million adults put down deposits on the Jaguar and based on what exactly?

 

Atari's current standing in the industry? 

 

The launch titles?

 

The expectation's of games to come?.

 

The figure is lacking any grounding and credibility and is ridiculous. 

 

 

I remember when the ball on went up over the 3 Million Lynx units sold claim when the Lynx was covered in RetroGamer Magazine. 

 

Again no actual evidence to back it up, Darryl Still again used as sole source and magazine writers claiming everything was fact checked before it appeared in the magazine, it wouldn't be allowed in if it was incorrect. 

 

 

Sorry, but that's been proven farcical time after time.

 

The magazine has happily allowed Amiga Jr Artists to take credit for Jim Sachs work, Martin Hooley, Mark Cale, Jane Whittaker and Jez San sprout utter nonsense during interviews..

 

 

Has had people credited as working on SNES Starfox II 3 years before they even joined Argonaut Software..

 

Incorrectly stated who was responsible for big name conversions to the Sega Master System...

 

The list of school boy errors alone is endless.

 

 

Why they couldn't of simply stated the inital demand for the Jaguar in Europe was far higher than Atari was able to meet, with such megre numbers limping into High Street stores,  leaving a lot of parents angry and kids dissapointed,  is beyond me.

 

 

A far more accurate description and without any need to wander into the realms of the ridiculous and fantasist writing arena. 

[Lost Dragon]

Killed an hour this morning looking for some possible idea where Darryl could of pulled that 2 Million Pre-Order number from..

 

All i found was i.D software expressing the hope Atari could at least manufacture around 500,000 machines and get them in the hands of retailers,  so the Jaguar would make for a commercially viable platform for long term development. 

 

Sam Tramiel talking of hoping to sell around 50,000 units in the first wave of sales and have an installed user base of around 500,000 by the end of 1994.

 

Atari Corp sources saying Atari had set aside enough cash to produce and get into hands of retailers some 300,000 machines...

 

 

So RG want us to believe there were was a far greater demand in Europe for the Jaguar than the Tramiels could ever of dreamed of and far beyond what they could realistically produce?

 

He was either misquoted/talking nonsense or it's a made up claim.

 

I'd love to be proven wrong on this one, but until some credible evidence is presented, it's nonsense. 

[awbacon]

 

I think D would have been a perfect candidate for the Jaguar CD. Not sure how the videos would have translated to the Cinepak codec but a Jaguar release (even today) of D would have been awesome!

[sd32]

7 hours ago, awbacon said:

I think D would have been a perfect candidate for the Jaguar CD. Not sure how the videos would have translated to the Cinepak codec but a Jaguar release (even today) of D would have been awesome!

 Havent really tought of comparing the FMV quality of the 3DO and Jag CD before. But should be pretty close, right?

[awbacon]

On 9/10/2019 at 3:07 PM, sd32 said:

 Havent really tought of comparing the FMV quality of the 3DO and Jag CD before. But should be pretty close, right?

I assume its quite similar but I've never done it either

[awbacon]

I am surprised Jaguar CD didn't end up as a "dumping ground" for quick FMV conversions though. Someone like Digital Pictures could have shoveled their entire line up onto Jag CD and called it a day. Must not have been enough money in it

[+orpheuswaking]

On 9/10/2019 at 8:26 AM, Lost Dragon said:

 

He was either misquoted/talking nonsense or it's a made up claim.

 

 

Knowing RG I would say it was a misquote. 

[Lost Dragon]

10 minutes ago, orpheuswaking said:

Knowing RG I would say it was a misquote. 

And or a quote taken out of context

[+orpheuswaking]

41 minutes ago, Lost Dragon said:

And or a quote taken out of context

Very likely

[Christos]

On 9/4/2019 at 1:55 AM, Machine said:

*Pong 2000

That was a Falcon exclusive.

[Lost Dragon]

On 9/12/2019 at 8:43 PM, orpheuswaking said:

Very likely

It's a shame really as with a little bit more care and attention to the standard of writing and some basic fact checking, a lot of RG articles over the years could of been fantastic archive articles, but they fell at the last hurdle. 

 

 

I don't think it would of been asking too much for them to issue corrections (even if just via the magazines forum ) to articles where people have been credited as working on games they never touched or were allowed to claim credit for art they never did etc..let alone have sales figures etc corrected.

 

 

The old Newsfield magazines used to correct errors in the following months issue.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Lost Dragon

[+CyranoJ]

If Kieren wrote for them they'd need several issues  just to list the index to the errors. 

[Lost Dragon]

Found a few more apparent claims from Darryl Still from late 1994 that raised a few eyebrows:

 

Regarding the Sega deal-Sega wouldn't be getting AVP from Atari (yet Saturn AVP was being coded by Rebellion before being dropped, Rebellion openly talked of this).

 

And one reason Atari were developing Fight For Life was because they hoped to get the rights to do Virtua Fighter on the Jaguar at some point as part of the Sega deal.

 

We would need to confirm he actually said both statements but if he did, it further highlights the fallacy of likes of RetroGamer magazine using him as a sole source of information to establish a claim as 'fact'.

 

He was not fully aware of developers long term plans and happy to speculate on matters. 

 

 

[awbacon]

 

I wonder how hard a port would be? I mean obv beyond my skill set but I’ve never really thought much in regards to the Jaguar CD vs other cd based platforms when it came to fmv games. 

 

I mean then we could get “Plumbers Don’t Wear Ties” on the Jaguar. Think of the possibilities!?!?

 

[Zerosquare]

4 hours ago, awbacon said:

we could get “Plumbers Don’t Wear Ties” on the Jaguar. Think of the possibilities

I'd rather not, thank you.

[Lost Dragon]

I've never owned a Jaguar CD drive but the UK Press at least seemed to of been impressed by it's video playback ability when Atari were showing movie clips of Jaws, Back To The Future etc.

 

The Saturn's FMV surprised me a little as it seemed more grainy than i expected.

 

I had D on the Playstation,  rather enjoyed it at the time.

[Lost Dragon]

On 9/14/2019 at 12:08 PM, CyranoJ said:

If Kieren wrote for them they'd need several issues  just to list the index to the errors. 

RetroGamer Magazine has fallen into the same trap many others have before it..simply quoting or misquoting single sources ( more often than not, Darryl Still as he's the only person avaiable).

 

 

Darryl is a great guy, pleasure to chat with, as so many in the community have found when they approached him for podcast or online articles, but he was far from the only person at Atari UK. 

 

 

 

It's a pity RetroGamer magazine for all it's resources hasn't been able to interview the likes of:

 

Bob Gleadow (Atari UK boss)

 

Peter Staddon and Peter Walker-who had Darryl's roles before he joined.

 

3 more, fresh voices would be most welcome .

 

Or at least try and get access to some of the internal Atari documentation the likes of Scott Stilphen had.

 

 

Anything that could help establish a clearer picture of what really went on would of done them the world of good, credibility wise.

 

 

Anecdotal evidence alone is never 100% reliable and Darryl in the past going along with suggested Lynx sales was a bit of a poor show to suddenly become fact, just because the quote now appeared in RG magazine. 

 

He openly admitted he couldn't put an actual figure on sales and suggested worldwide build was into 7 digits and they'd of all been sold into retail..but that's just his perception,  we would need to see documenration to back this up.

 

He was also honest enough to admit claims at the time that the Lynx outsold the Game Gear here in the UK at it's peak probably came from him and there was not much foundation in fact for them.

 

Saying back in 2016 Atari UK could of sold 20X the amount of Jaguar's in the inital wave if only they'd had the machines avaiable, demand was that high..does not magically equate to 2 Million Pre-Orders for Europe.

 

As the 7800..best he can say is it was well stocked by European retail...sold well through mail order catalogues and in poorer areas of the UK.

 

But people still put estimated sales figures for the 7800 in the UK to him, which like the Lynx he goes along with and next thing you know it's presented as fact.

[awbacon]

16 hours ago, Lost Dragon said:

I've never owned a Jaguar CD drive but the UK Press at least seemed to of been impressed by it's video playback ability when Atari were showing movie clips of Jaws, Back To The Future etc.

 

The Saturn's FMV surprised me a little as it seemed more grainy than i expected.

 

I had D on the Playstation,  rather enjoyed it at the time.

I've never owned a CD drive either. I am really hoping ODE devices will show up for the Jaguar soon. Sort of a combo flash cart + ODE like TerraOnion just released for the Sega CD / Mega CD. I think I heard someone was working on one for Jaguar but I can't remember where I read that?

[+madman]

44 minutes ago, awbacon said:

I've never owned a CD drive either. I am really hoping ODE devices will show up for the Jaguar soon. Sort of a combo flash cart + ODE like TerraOnion just released for the Sega CD / Mega CD. I think I heard someone was working on one for Jaguar but I can't remember where I read that?

Probably the stickied thread here about the Jag SD cart.

[awbacon]

1 hour ago, madman said:

Probably the stickied thread here about the Jag SD cart.

is that you madman? like NG.com madman?

[famicommander]

5 hours ago, awbacon said:

is that you madman? like NG.com madman?

There's a few of us 'round these parts. I think FR has an account too.

[Kalani]

On 9/9/2019 at 4:35 PM, roots.genoa said:

When I asked earlier "Were preorders even a thing at the time?", I meant that there were a lot less adult gamers. Children usually don't buy systems and I'm not sure parents preordered them a lot back in the day, especially since they had to do it in person in the shop. Also they would rather buy them for Christmas, not at launch.

I wish I could find preorder figures for current systems, but Nintendo Switch sold more than 2 million worldwide during its first month, and I really doubt that most of those who preordered had to wait a full month to get the system. Which means that probably less than 2 million people preordered it worldwide. So this "2 million Jaguar preorders for Europe alone" figure is ridiculous... If it was 20.000, it would have already been positive.

Pre-orders  to  distributors and Retailers. Missing getting mass inventory out it's first Xmas hurt it  it's jump in intial msrp hurt it originally it was announced at $150 USD. 

[Lost Dragon]

There was a brief spat in the UK Press even before the Jaguar had 'properly' launched here in the UK, as it was being sold at a higher R.R.P than Atari UK (not Darryl Still either ?), had promised.

 

 

Atari UK initally tried blaming the distribution channel for inflating prices to make a quick buck from the early adopter demand. 

 

Distribution channel hit right back saying profit margins on each unit sold were so miniscule as Atari had changed the prices they were selling them to distribution channels and they were trying hard not to pass too much of the increases price hike onto customers who had pre-ordered based on the promised launch price.

 

 

 

Missing getting your platform into shops and then homes, in large numbers over the crucial Xmas period is pretty sucidial,  espically given your limited window to get your platform established and software houses deciding it's now a commercially viable platform and coding for it..rather than existing platforms whilst they waited for development kits from far bigger players like Sega..Nintendo and Sony who had their Next Generation systems waiting in the wings, backed up with substantial marketing budgets and resources.