Games that should have been on Jaguar

[Lost Dragon]

3 hours ago, swapd0 said:

 

He was asking for a sega game and I choose that one, of couse there are more sega games like kongo bongo, zaxxon, pengo... etc But I prefer a Daytona USA at 1fps because it has textured polygons, and at that time everybody wanted textured polygons.

Atari espically. .F1 moving from a plain polygon based cartridge racer to becoming World Tour Racing on Jaguar CD.

 

Coder admitted he'd optimised the engine and had another racing game planned using it, but it's there's still a huge gulf between an improved frame rate etc W.T.R and anything half approaching a reasonable approximation of the Daytona USA experience. 

[Arcadia]

8 hours ago, swapd0 said:

Yeah, Daytona USA 1fps version XD

I was thinking maybe OutRunners, but you can wish for anything, a man's allowed to dream.

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, Kobra Kai said:

But, what is this Atari/ Sega cross publishing deal mentioned above? Is that regarding some of the Tengen releases on Genesis like Hard Drivin and Roadblasters? Maybe Sega had something going with Atari Games division, but there certainly wasn't any mutual pact going the other way. I can't think of any Sega games on Lynx or Jag.

This link is pretty interesting, it contains a brief description and some documents Sega and Atari sent to each other.

[swapd0]

2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I was thinking maybe OutRunners, but you can wish for anything, a man's allowed to dream.

I wasn't dreaming I was joking.

[Zerosquare]

3 hours ago, Lost Dragon said:

Getting grounded firmly in reality here just for a moment...

Have you forgotten where you are?

[Lost Dragon]

1 hour ago, Zerosquare said:

Have you forgotten where you are?

?

 

You have me bang to rights there.

[sd32]

Forget about Mortal Kombat 3. Just a port of MK2 that is as superior to the SNES version, as the Jag NBA JAM TE is superior to the SNES game. It wouldnt matter if it was as late as the Jag NBA Jam TE.

 

Also, more ports of PC games that used the Wolfenstein 3D engine. It ran so nice on the Jaggy.

 

Damn, feels like i have posted this same stuff on a 100 other threads ?

[agradeneu]

14 hours ago, Lost Dragon said:

Atari espically. .F1 moving from a plain polygon based cartridge racer to becoming World Tour Racing on Jaguar CD.

 

Coder admitted he'd optimised the engine and had another racing game planned using it, but it's there's still a huge gulf between an improved frame rate etc W.T.R and anything half approaching a reasonable approximation of the Daytona USA experience. 

I think I saw that F1 racer cart demo with less textures, but it seemed to be not considerably faster than WTR. Both are too slow and could have been faster with optimizations. Regarding Daytona, I would not deny that a fully texture mapped racer could be possible at a reasonable speed, with clever tricks and lots of cheating, why not. WTR is not a benchmark/reference for that, but look at Skyhammer, Doom or Iron Soldier 2. A racer does not need to be full 3D, you can cheat probably a lot more than a full 3D game aka Skyhammer, which means better speed. 

[VladR]

17 hours ago, Kobra Kai said:

You chose a game that was state of the art, dedicated arcade hardware in 1994. Nobody would expect the 1995 Jaguar to run that game. Sega couldn't get Daytona right on their own home hardware until Dreamcast. I think you went for the cheap zinger.

Yep, a quick look at wiki reveals that Daytona runs at Sega Model 2 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sega_arcade_system_boards#Sega_Model_2

 

There's 7 (seven) RISC chips in the system (main Intel + 6 DSPs), plus Motorola for Audio. It surely beats even Playstation 1 in terms of raw horsepower and comes closer to PS2.

And it has Z-sorting plus HW clipping. And texture rasterizer.

 

With 120 MFlops, they don't even have to bastardize the codebase with integer or fixedpoint, but may straight use floating point!

 

One has to wonder, what exactly does their engine do then, as at that point, there's not really much to do left - transform polygons and submit a batch of triangles (and let the HW deal with all the edge cases) 

 

 

In short, they didn't even have to bother optimizing it too much to run at 60 fps.

[+CyranoJ]

1 minute ago, VladR said:

In short, they didn't even have to bother optimizing it too much to run at 60 fps.

 

No, they were too busy making a fun game instead of masturbating over their 3D engine.

[VladR]

1 minute ago, CyranoJ said:

 

No, they were too busy making a fun game instead of masturbating over their 3D engine.

Awwww, you're so cute

 

[+CyranoJ]

1 minute ago, VladR said:

Awwww, you're so cute

 

 

Yeah, but I wouldn't shake your hand.

[agradeneu]

27 minutes ago, VladR said:

Yep, a quick look at wiki reveals that Daytona runs at Sega Model 2 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sega_arcade_system_boards#Sega_Model_2

 

There's 7 (seven) RISC chips in the system (main Intel + 6 DSPs), plus Motorola for Audio. It surely beats even Playstation 1 in terms of raw horsepower and comes closer to PS2.

And it has Z-sorting plus HW clipping. And texture rasterizer.

 

With 120 MFlops, they don't even have to bastardize the codebase with integer or fixedpoint, but may straight use floating point!

 

One has to wonder, what exactly does their engine do then, as at that point, there's not really much to do left - transform polygons and submit a batch of triangles (and let the HW deal with all the edge cases) 

 

 

In short, they didn't even have to bother optimizing it too much to run at 60 fps.

Quite a bold statement for someone with a track record of......*drumroll*..... ZERO games. Numberwang THAT.

Edited October 10, 2019 by agradeneu

[VladR]

2 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:

Yeah, but I wouldn't shake your hand.

Wait, did you actually think I would talk to you IRL ?

 

 

Man, all sarcasm aside, you are so talented ! I watched some explosive SNL this morning, yet literally burst out in laugh over your response. Thank you

 

Why don't you record  all that comedy gold and submit it to Netflix ? You could really get famous, as there's obviously lots of untapped potential there ! It's not fair keeping it hidden from world in some largely obscure forum !

[VladR]

3 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Quite a bold statement for someone with a track record of......*drumroll*..... ZERO games.

Technically incorrect. I have two published retail PC budget games from cca 15 yrs ago (the pre-shader era). I just don't have the ego to keep advertising that in every single post, like some other people around here.

 

 

But, please,  don't let the facts interfere with your agenda

 

[agradeneu]

2 minutes ago, VladR said:

Technically incorrect. I have two published retail PC budget games from cca 15 yrs ago (the pre-shader era). I just don't have the ego to keep advertising that in every single post, like some other people around here.

 

 

But, please,  don't let the facts interfere with your agenda

 

Which ones? Can you name the titles please?

[+CyranoJ]

Dude, I don't have an agenda, you're the one constantly overcompensating for something

[VladR]

1 minute ago, agradeneu said:

Which ones? Can you name the titles please?

You wouldn't know about it, it was a budget PC publisher in U.S.

 

Regardless, we've have this conversation here before. Because it was done in DirectX, local "experts" (but with MORE published 2D games) starting ditching it as a "LEGO" where anybody can write a 3D engine plus toolsets (editor/importers) plus game in a week.

 

 

Which is obviously a nonsense, but it's like visiting kindergarten and expecting to hold a conversation about nuclear physics. You need to manage your expectations accordingly.

[Lost Dragon]

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

I think I saw that F1 racer cart demo with less textures, but it seemed to be not considerably faster than WTR. Both are too slow and could have been faster with optimizations. Regarding Daytona, I would not deny that a fully texture mapped racer could be possible at a reasonable speed, with clever tricks and lots of cheating, why not. WTR is not a benchmark/reference for that, but look at Skyhammer, Doom or Iron Soldier 2. A racer does not need to be full 3D, you can cheat probably a lot more than a full 3D game aka Skyhammer, which means better speed. 

Atari want something like Virtual Racing on Jaguar..contract a small team (Rebellion) with no driving game experience to produce a plain polygon racer..next to 32X Virtua Racing it's embarrassing affair.

 

 

Sega, having their own teams overstreched give Saturn Virtua Racing to Time Warner to sub contract out..It's a massive dissapointment.

 

 

I personally would of hated to see Atari being given Daytona USA and it handed to lowest bidding developer

 

 

We really didn't need yet another dissapointing racing title that generation, especially not on Jaguar.

 

Teque had another racer in development which would of shown further optimizations to the W T.R engine..

 

Caspain didn't go into much detail regarding exact nature of the game they might of done with the proposed engine they had created.

 

The I.S Engine is fantastic, but your controlling a massive, stomping,mobile Gun Emplacement, it's not really suited for a pure, arcade style racer.

 

  

 

  

[Lost Dragon]

1 hour ago, VladR said:

Yep, a quick look at wiki reveals that Daytona runs at Sega Model 2 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sega_arcade_system_boards#Sega_Model_2

 

There's 7 (seven) RISC chips in the system (main Intel + 6 DSPs), plus Motorola for Audio. It surely beats even Playstation 1 in terms of raw horsepower and comes closer to PS2.

And it has Z-sorting plus HW clipping. And texture rasterizer.

 

With 120 MFlops, they don't even have to bastardize the codebase with integer or fixedpoint, but may straight use floating point!

 

One has to wonder, what exactly does their engine do then, as at that point, there's not really much to do left - transform polygons and submit a batch of triangles (and let the HW deal with all the edge cases) 

 

 

In short, they didn't even have to bother optimizing it too much to run at 60 fps.

They sacrificed Draw Distance for frame rate.

 

Even the coin-op has pop-in.

 

 

[newtmonkey]

VladR and CyranoJ, you guys should just put each other on ignore.  You guys are both interesting posters individually, but seem completely incapable of interacting with each other like adults.

[VladR]

11 minutes ago, Lost Dragon said:

They sacrificed Draw Distance for frame rate.

 

Even the coin-op has pop-in.

 

 

I just watched an "arcade Daytona USA" YT vid, but didn't notice any significant issues with the pop in or draw distance. Since I haven't played at the arcade, it's hard to say how precise that vid is, though. Probably via MAME, I guess...

 

At the time, the TVs were much smaller (though some arcades did have giant screens) so the pop-in we see today on huge LCDs would have been unnoticeable on CRT TV from some distance.

 

[VladR]

6 hours ago, sd32 said:

Forget about Mortal Kombat 3. Just a port of MK2 that is as superior to the SNES version, as the Jag NBA JAM TE is superior to the SNES game. It wouldnt matter if it was as late as the Jag NBA Jam TE.

From the top of my memory, MK3 was still 2D, just like MK2, right ? Was there something technically different about MK3 compared to MK2 ? Perhaps it switched to higher resolution already ? If so, that wouldn't run well on jag (there's interlace mode, but it has its own set of issues).

 

I haven't played MK3, so don't really remember. Besides, How many characters and environments could fit on a 6 MB cart ? Probably not even half of them. Would have to be a CD release...

[Lost Dragon]

Saturn Daytona USA C.E was built around an optimised Saturn Game Engine (Sega Rally) and created by a team familiar with the complex Saturn hardware and at best it's a technical improvement over the original Daytona USA on Saturn.

 

It still doesn't replicate the Daytona USA experience well enough.

 

Car handling is off..

 

Visuals are darker and seem more realistic than the vibrant look of the arcade title.

 

The Jaguar even fully optimised is not the Sega Saturn nor is the 32X or 3DO.

 

 

If the Saturn with Sega's vast resources and skilled coding teams couldn't hope to replicate the Daytona experience, why on earth would anyone wanted it on Jaguar?

 

Club Drive was intended to be a fun, polygon 3D driving experience and it's widelyregarded as 1 of the systens worst titles.

 

Supercross 3D was fully texture mapped and again did the system so much harm.

 

Beyond Games werent even sure how to translate Battlewheels from the Lynx to Jaguar...

 

Atari screwed it's own titles.

 

Thank god they didn't touch any of Sega's..   

[Lost Dragon]

32 minutes ago, VladR said:

I just watched an "arcade Daytona USA" YT vid, but didn't notice any significant issues with the pop in or draw distance. Since I haven't played at the arcade, it's hard to say how precise that vid is, though. Probably via MAME, I guess...

 

At the time, the TVs were much smaller (though some arcades did have giant screens) so the pop-in we see today on huge LCDs would have been unnoticeable on CRT TV from some distance.

 

Not sure of your source or viewing time, but it's easily spotted on numerous Arcade footage videos.

 

Bits of road..bridges..hillsides etc can suddenly pop into view at times.

 

It does little to kill the complete experience and is still an anazing piece of arcade hardware, but it has to be looked at objectively..sacrifices were made to hit that nigh on locked 60 fps frame rate with such a high polygon count, texture detail and screen resolution.