What are the chances of someone "capable" porting Sega 32x games to the Jaguar?

[swapd0]

20 minutes ago, philipj said:

I wish the Jaguar GPU and DSP had it's own portion of dedicated memory in addition to the 2MB of main ram.

They have it, but only 4KB and 8KB

[agradeneu]

1 hour ago, philipj said:

 

The 32X graphic chip has better access main ram than the Jaguar and will work at full speed without any work around's to slow it down unlike the Jaguar... However the 32X doesn't have a 64bit blitter or a 32bit object processor thus the only reason the Jaguar can't do as well is because the GPU inability to make jumps to main ram without the work around. I think if the Jaguar had a better architecture it would total demolish the 32X, but neither one of those systems never really saw it's fullest potential during their commercial shelf life. Another thing to consider is system ram; the Jag has more ram than the 32X yet the bus is not as bottleneck as the Jaguar. It all really just depends on the programmer, but I'm just speculating based on what I know from what I've read. Still I agree with you on some level; I think the 32X has a better advantage as far dual SH2 processors having it's own access to 256KB of ram per chip... I wish the Jaguar GPU and DSP had it's own portion of dedicated memory in addition to the 2MB of main ram.

I think you re confusing System RAM with on chip CACHE, the two SH 2 have just 4Kbyte cache, 2Kbyte per chip, VDP has 1Kbyte. So overall its just 5Kbyte on chip RAM alltogether for the 32X. The Jaguar has 4+8Kbyte. Do the math! lol

Edited September 6, 2019 by agradeneu

[agradeneu]

57 minutes ago, swapd0 said:

They have it, but only 4KB and 8KB

"A lot has been written about problems with the low GPU RAM, but you could do amazing things with it. The architecture accomodated developers who knew what they were doing and could correctly analyze how to use hardware ressources." Marc Rosocha, foreword in Return of the borders, p.8 (amazing book by the way)

[JagChris]

I can't find this book anywhere. Can you post a link?

[+sixersfan105]

From an end-user consumer standpoint, adding together the cost of a Genesis and a 32X add-on, you're basically at the amount it would cost to purchase ONE 32X to Jaguar "port" complete in box, should that ever even be possible. Just get a Genesis (most prefer Model 1, but if space is a concern, get a Model 2) and 32X and you're set. 

[agradeneu]

18 minutes ago, JagChris said:

I can't find this book anywhere. Can you post a link?

https://www.microzeit.com/atari-store-1/volume-3x/

[Clint Thompson]

First time seeing the 32X game Kolibri at a local game store over the weekend and was kind of wowed by the box screenshots as well as the asking price of $97. Found a video and while still nice looking, noticed that it's not nearly as sharp as it appeared to be on the box. But the 32X doesn't seem like better hardware, especially considering the cramped RAM and limited color output. They didn't make the window of 32X Doom small just because. Sure, it had music but it has now been proven the Jaguar was certainly capable of offering so much more in that regard, full-screen even.

 

With that said, the chances are zero. Call me an optimist.

 

 

[philipj]

15 hours ago, agradeneu said:

I think you re confusing System RAM with on chip CACHE, the two SH 2 have just 4Kbyte cache, 2Kbyte per chip, VDP has 1Kbyte. So overall its just 5Kbyte on chip RAM alltogether for the 32X. The Jaguar has 4+8Kbyte. Do the math! lol

Not really... I didn't mention cache ram at all. I was referring exclusively to system ram where the 32X has 256KB of ram per SH2 processor versus the Jaguar only having 2MB of non dedicated system ram. Of course I know about the JRISC internal memory, but with the GPU not able to do jumps like it should, the 32X has a profound advantage over the Atari Jaguar in this regard even though the Jag has 2MB of main ram.

 

15 hours ago, agradeneu said:

"A lot has been written about problems with the low GPU RAM, but you could do amazing things with it. The architecture accommodate developers who knew what they were doing and could correctly analyze how to use hardware ressources." Marc Rosocha, foreword in Return of the borders, p.8 (amazing book by the way)

Still it would've been an advantage if the Jags graphics and sound chip had some external memory dedicated exclusively each processor to help it stay off of the bus when needed if you want to do a comparison between the Jag and the 32X... This is where the 32X has the advantage as a game system.

 

Quote

 

First time seeing the 32X game Kolibri at a local game store over the weekend and was kind of wowed by the box screenshots as well as the asking price of $97. Found a video and while still nice looking, noticed that it's not nearly as sharp as it appeared to be on the box. But the 32X doesn't seem like better hardware, especially considering the cramped RAM and limited color output. They didn't make the window of 32X Doom small just because. Sure, it had music but it has now been proven the Jaguar was certainly capable of offering so much more in that regard, full-screen even.

 

With that said, the chances are zero. Call me an optimist.

 

I remember back in 95 or 96 toward the end of the 32X shelf life, Toys R Us were selling on the cheap much like the Jaguar... Of course I got in on it and purchased "Virtua Fighter" then later "Virtua Racer" and "Star Wars" the more flagship games. Later I would go back to get "WWF Wrestlemania Arcade" and was looking for "Zaxon Motherbase" but they were sold out. I also remember seeing the rare "Amazing Spiderman Web of Fire", but the bargain bin was emptying fast with people buying them on the cheap. Around that time KB Toys were selling the Jaguar games on the cheap, which I wish I'd taken advantage of at the time. It was right around the time the Playstation 1 was all of the rage. By 97 I still had my SNES, Sega Genesis-CD-32X, and managed to find a 3DO at a local pawnshop with "Crash-N-Burn". A year later I finally yield on the PS1 bandwagon and found a good used one at a pawnshop with the game "Battle Arena Toshinden" and was floored with how well the graphics looked even though the game-play was a bit clunky. Not quite sure why I went down that memory lane, but those were great memories. lol ?

 

Also you're right about Doom... That game is a hardware truth machine pre-Playstation 1 era. They had to use the FX chip just to getting working on the SNES and it still didn't do as well as the 32X. The Jaguar reign supreme when it comes to Doom.

Edited September 7, 2019 by philipj

[phoenixdownita]

11 hours ago, Clint Thompson said:

First time seeing the 32X game Kolibri at a local game store over the weekend and was kind of wowed by the box screenshots as well as the asking price of $97. Found a video and while still nice looking, noticed that it's not nearly as sharp as it appeared to be on the box......

 

 

You owe it to yourself to read the review from the VideGameCritic.

 

https://videogamecritic.com/32xal.htm?e=32485#rev2962

remarkably funny the notes about the stage names .... "Dark Cavity" lol

[Lost Dragon]

I had a 32X for a short while.

 

Bought it just for Star Wars-fun but ultimately very limited

 

Picked up Metal Head and whilst it might be technically more impressive than Iron Soldier in terms of Texture-Mapping etc, it's a much weaker Mech game.

 

Are 32X systems that expensive these days and emulation poor?.

 

For the handful of system exclusives surely it's far simple just to go the 32X itself route. 

[Clint Thompson]

1 hour ago, phoenixdownita said:

You owe it to yourself to read the review from the VideGameCritic.

 

https://videogamecritic.com/32xal.htm?e=32485#rev2962

remarkably funny the notes about the stage names .... "Dark Cavity" lol

Ha... thanks for that. For such a seemingly innocent game, it sure does have some pervy level names.

[agradeneu]

1 hour ago, Lost Dragon said:

I had a 32X for a short while.

 

Bought it just for Star Wars-fun but ultimately very limited

 

Picked up Metal Head and whilst it might be technically more impressive than Iron Soldier in terms of Texture-Mapping etc, it's a much weaker Mech game.

 

Are 32X systems that expensive these days and emulation poor?.

 

For the handful of system exclusives surely it's far simple just to go the 32X itself route. 

I would say except textures the engine of Iron really wipes up the floor with Metal Head in every regard. ?

[agradeneu]

3 hours ago, philipj said:

Not really... I didn't mention cache ram at all. I was referring exclusively to system ram where the 32X has 256KB of ram per SH2 processor versus the Jaguar only having 2MB of non dedicated system ram. Of course I know about the JRISC internal memory, but with the GPU not able to do jumps like it should, the 32X has a profound advantage over the Atari Jaguar in this regard even though the Jag has 2MB of main ram.

 

Still it would've been an advantage if the Jags graphics and sound chip had some external memory dedicated exclusively each processor to help it stay off of the bus when needed if you want to do a comparison between the Jag and the 32X... This is where the 32X has the advantage as a game system.

 

 

??  

[agradeneu]

5 hours ago, philipj said:

Not really... I didn't mention cache ram at all. I was referring exclusively to system ram where the 32X has 256KB of ram per SH2 processor versus the Jaguar only having 2MB of non dedicated system ram. Of course I know about the JRISC internal memory, but with the GPU not able to do jumps like it should, the 32X has a profound advantage over the Atari Jaguar in this regard even though the Jag has 2MB of main ram.

 

Still it would've been an advantage if the Jags graphics and sound chip had some external memory dedicated exclusively each processor to help it stay off of the bus when needed if you want to do a comparison between the Jag and the 32X... This is where the 32X has the advantage as a game system.

 

I remember back in 95 or 96 toward the end of the 32X shelf life, Toys R Us were selling on the cheap much like the Jaguar... Of course I got in on it and purchased "Virtua Fighter" then later "Virtua Racer" and "Star Wars" the more flagship games. Later I would go back to get "WWF Wrestlemania Arcade" and was looking for "Zaxon Motherbase" but they were sold out. I also remember seeing the rare "Amazing Spiderman Web of Fire", but the bargain bin was emptying fast with people buying them on the cheap. Around that time KB Toys were selling the Jaguar games on the cheap, which I wish I'd taken advantage of at the time. It was right around the time the Playstation 1 was all of the rage. By 97 I still had my SNES, Sega Genesis-CD-32X, and managed to find a 3DO at a local pawnshop with "Crash-N-Burn". A year later I finally yield on the PS1 bandwagon and found a good used one at a pawnshop with the game "Battle Arena Toshinden" and was floored with how well the graphics looked even though the game-play was a bit clunky. Not quite sure why I went down that memory lane, but those were great memories. lol ?

 

Also you're right about Doom... That game is a hardware truth machine pre-Playstation 1 era. They had to use the FX chip just to getting working on the SNES and it still didn't do as well as the 32X. The Jaguar reign supreme when it comes to Doom.

This is all highly theortetical. However  I can say, from some humble expierience, that only 512Kbyte of system RAM would command some significant limits on the looks and quality of 2D bitmap graphics. The Jaguar is just fine handling Rayman graphics at 60 FPS without much sweat.;-)

Edited September 7, 2019 by agradeneu

[Lost Dragon]

For the £15 I paid for it and couple of quid each for the loose cart games, I got enough VFM from the 32X ?

 

I'm not a Virtua Fighter  or Virtua Racing fan, had already played MK II to death on the standard M.D and there just did not seem anything else that really grabbed me.

 

The system just screamed stop gap and polygon 3D wise it was like the next generation of the SVP chip. 

 

Metal Head and Darxide showed what the system was capable of, but i found myself agreeing with C+VG's description of it as the less than magic mushroom.

 

It was just too poorly supported to give it any real appeal.

[philipj]

On 9/7/2019 at 4:07 AM, agradeneu said:

This is all highly theortetical. However  I can say, from some humble expierience, that only 512Kbyte of system RAM would command some significant limits on the looks and quality of 2D bitmap graphics. The Jaguar is just fine handling Rayman graphics at 60 FPS without much sweat.;-)

Well you're right about that... Rayman made good use of the blitter for those graphics to really pop on the Jag; even better than the Playstation 1.

[agradeneu]

5 minutes ago, philipj said:

Well you're right about that... Rayman made good use of the blitter for those graphics to really pop on the Jag; even better than the Playstation 1.

I don't need to tell you that 16 bit color bitmaps require much more RAM and bandwidth than 8 bit or 4 bit?  

[+CyranoJ]

6 minutes ago, philipj said:

Well you're right about that... Rayman made good use of the blitter for those graphics to really pop on the Jag; even better than the Playstation 1.

He is right, but he wasn't talking about the blitter.

[Lynxpro]

This has probably been said multiple times elsewhere but I'd think the platform to convert games over to the Jag from - besides the Atari ST and the Amiga - would be the Sharp X68000. There's been some success in porting such games over to the Atari Falcon030 but while the Falcon has the generous 68030, the Motorola 56K DSP, and up to 14MB of ST RAM, the VIDEL graphics chip and its Blitter does not compare to the Jaguar's graphical abilities. 

 

CyranoJ certainly has tamed the Jaguar's DSP to play back YM2151 audio, which the X68000 graciously has [which Yamaha denied Atari Corp of for the ST].

 

Mind you, there's some stock Sega Genesis games that would be great to have on the Jag, whether or not they were enhanced. That being Tengen's library - which should've been on the Jag in the first place - and, I'll say it... an enhanced version of Todd's Adventure in Slime World. 

[Clint Thompson]

9 minutes ago, Lynxpro said:

That being Tengen's library - which should've been on the Jag in the first place - and, I'll say it... an enhanced version of Todd's Adventure in Slime World. 

Slime World on the Jag would’ve been awesome!

[VintageGamer74]

Seeing Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter 2 would've been cool but it would have been better if Atari had spent more time on it's own games and had been a better partner to developers and creating a better system with more ram, a dedicated sound chip and less bugs would have been a good start. I remember getting the Jaguar being and being very disappointed when I compared it to the 3DO I had at the time, because I really wanted it to succeed. Doom, Tempest, AvP, Rayman, Iron Soldier and a few others were cool but more 2-D games like Rayman would have been great but everything was going 3-D but I just didn't like 3-D all that much and the Jaguar, to me, didn't do as well it as the other systems of the time. 

 

That being said. 32X games on the Jag would be cool. I guess? But who really wants to tackle that kind of endeavor? Probably easier to buy one and some games. 

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by VintageGamer74

[Lynxpro]

30 minutes ago, Clint Thompson said:

Slime World on the Jag would’ve been awesome!

The Genesis version is hated but it is pretty. If it could be ported and modded to support JagLink/Catbox/whatever networking scheme, it could at least be popular at public retro events with Jaguars. Using the MegaBomb on the Lynx version with 8 players ComLynxed together was really fun back-in-the-day. 

 

Getting it to work with the Lynx version would also be great. Even back then, I thought it would've been at least as much fun - if not more - than MIDI Maze had it been ported to the ST and took advantage of said ports... 

[Lost Dragon]

22 hours ago, Clint Thompson said:

Slime World on the Jag would’ve been awesome!

Epyx still being around by time of Jaguar and producing games of the calibre of Slime World would have been awesome..

[Lost Dragon]

22 hours ago, VintageGamer74 said:

Seeing Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter 2 would've been cool but it would have been better if Atari had spent more time on it's own games and had been a better partner to developers and creating a better system with more ram, a dedicated sound chip and less bugs would have been a good start. I remember getting the Jaguar being and being very disappointed when I compared it to the 3DO I had at the time, because I really wanted it to succeed. Doom, Tempest, AvP, Rayman, Iron Soldier and a few others were cool but more 2-D games like Rayman would have been great but everything was going 3-D but I just didn't like 3-D all that much and the Jaguar, to me, didn't do as well it as the other systems of the time. 

 

That being said. 32X games on the Jag would be cool. I guess? But who really wants to tackle that kind of endeavor? Probably easier to buy one and some games. 

 

 

 

Atari's marketing department killed 2D projects like Death Watch ?

[VintageGamer74]

@Lost Dragon: Death Watch? Never heard of it. What time of game would have this been? 

 

I like 3-D but I grew up on 2-D. Just something about pixels, parallax scrolling and hand drawn graphics that captured me. I miss the days of the bit wars.