New Lynx game previews at PRGE 2019

[Songbird]

As Karri said, you don't really get economy of scale on niche products like this. Sure, "lower price = more units sold" is a good general rule, but if that means 150 sales instead of 100, it's not enough to make sense financially. If I knew I could sell 1K+ units instead of 100, I would gladly make the price more accessible. But my historical reference (which includes many Lynx games originally released at a ~$40 price point) shows this is not the case. Most new releases will sell 100-200 units in the first couple years, and maybe 300-400 lifetime.

 

I would be happy for someone to prove me wrong by building up demand for upcoming Songbird titles.  

[Igor]

The reality is you won't sell 1k units no matter how hard you try so lowering productions costs makes sense, which to me at least means not going with moulded carts. I'll be reducing the price of my 3D printed carts once we've moved to the new house and set up - for low volume runs, that seems like a good option to me. Not saying you should source from me, but the STL file for Karri's flash PCB is out there, and 3D printers are very affordable now.

 

What you're asking about building up demand is unfair - that's like saying "hey come work for me for free while I reap all the benefits", you've got to do spend something (time/money/resources/information) on marketing to get something out of it. In fact I've been trying to do just that but usually I am the last to hear of any announcements so it makes it difficult to continue. Happy to work on building up demand, but it's a two-way street. ?

[haightc]

It was great to meet you @karri  I think you could have still charged more.    I am surprised you sold so few, I think it might have because you weren't on the main floor.    The Lynx MarkSpace area just had a bunch of terrible emulation machines atleast you had your real lynx there!    Those android tables really ruin the lynx experience.    @Songbird I had all the lynx titles you had on sale, in fact the copy of fat bobby I picked up from you I already had :whoops:

 

[+karri]

@haightc thanks for the chat and support of On Duty. As you may recall I only had a small number of games with me in my hand luggage. Besides selling games was not the reason I came to PRGE. I had been writing for years with lots of guys on AA and I saw this as an opportunity to meet you guys in real life. It was fun to be there. I met old friends, discussed future developments and got new friends. So I did not push my games but rather discussed the new screens (McWill, BennVenn), the multicarts (Aga Cart, SD), recapping and of course demoed all the games in the competition.

 

Writing games is a hobby and it is nice if someone likes to play them. My prices is adjusted so that I don't lose too much money on the hobby.

[Turbo Laser Lynx]

Yeah, in the end I can't imagine anyone would be in this for money, it's about the long exciting journey from starting to plan a game all the way to get a finished physical copy of your game into the hands of other enthusiasts. And of course the other way around, getting excited about, and getting new games for the old beloved hardware.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Turbo Laser Lynx

[Fadest]

Well, there has always been budget games and full priced games (*).

Usually, you get what you pay, Songbird, Luchs Software and other "high priced" games allways try to offer the best quality at the time they produced (better PCB quality, curved cartridge, real box, poster, pin's...) and I guess this is because they do so that the budget quality games now have curved cartridge (but 3D printed, not moulded) instead of green PCB, real box, ...

And Carl always put the extra effort in polishing the games in order to deliver the higher quality he can.

 

Of course, as I'm not a collector, I do not really care about hight quality packaging, but it is still nice to receive a Luchs game, or a new box from Songbird. (I mean, for these one, I do not drop boxes in trashbin :D)

My main concern is not the price tag of the games, but the cost of postage fees. And I guess none of us can do something about this.

 

 

(*) this is not a matter of game quality in itself (I consider 1st edition of Alpine Games as budget game because it was cheap, but it is still probably one of the 2 or 3 best games on the Lynx - commercial and homebrew - in my opinion), but more packaging, production, ...

[battleman13]

I don't have a problem with the pricing. It's not cheap to make these short, limited run, hand crafted products.
Everyone wants to get paid, from the people porting / writing the software to the people assembling the final product

and there are raw material / printing costs involved. I certainly do not work for free, and given my financial obligations

I can't afford to not get paid for my work or take too much time away from work to invest in an effort that won't yield

similar financial results.

The folks putting these ports, re releases and home brew products together have bills. It has to make economical sense

for the people involved to want to keep doing it. Most aren't looking to earn a profit, or at least not a big one... most are

hoping their involvement doesn't end up costing them too much money. For many its a labor of love, with a hope and 

expectation they won't take too big of a hit in the wallet for trying to offer something to the scene. 


I'd personally love to see Distant Lands come to market some day, as I understand that's likely never to happen? But

the point is, this is a game that's been worked on, on and off, for years. $60 would be a steal of a price to pay. I'd likely

pay $100 for it as it fills a devoid space in the lynx library. 

To be blunt, you can earn $60 spending a few hours mowing lawns or working other odd jobs. I don't really agree with the

argument that $60 is too much to ask for these homebrews.

[agradeneu]

55 minutes ago, battleman13 said:

I don't have a problem with the pricing. It's not cheap to make these short, limited run, hand crafted products.
Everyone wants to get paid, from the people porting / writing the software to the people assembling the final product

and there are raw material / printing costs involved. I certainly do not work for free, and given my financial obligations

I can't afford to not get paid for my work or take too much time away from work to invest in an effort that won't yield

similar financial results.

The folks putting these ports, re releases and home brew products together have bills. It has to make economical sense

for the people involved to want to keep doing it. Most aren't looking to earn a profit, or at least not a big one... most are

hoping their involvement doesn't end up costing them too much money. For many its a labor of love, with a hope and 

expectation they won't take too big of a hit in the wallet for trying to offer something to the scene. 


I'd personally love to see Distant Lands come to market some day, as I understand that's likely never to happen? But

the point is, this is a game that's been worked on, on and off, for years. $60 would be a steal of a price to pay. I'd likely

pay $100 for it as it fills a devoid space in the lynx library. 

To be blunt, you can earn $60 spending a few hours mowing lawns or working other odd jobs. I don't really agree with the

argument that $60 is too much to ask for these homebrews.

Im doing a bit homebrew stuff and its all in my freetime - which means I have a regular job to pay bills and dont need to get money out of it. I guess most hombrew/hobby devs work like this. So "6 years" in development does not mean you are working on it like a daily job, 24/7. It's mostly when you have time at your disposal, so instead of waching TV doing some artwork for a game. For me, the lowest possible price for a release is the best. However if you are running a publisher business you will consider to get some little profit, and set the prices accordingly. I consider 60 $ for a quality game with full package is just about right, especially with full color manual. Wyvern Tales might be a good example, or Zaku. If you consider the quality of those games, the price does not matter really, no brainer puchases. ?

Edited October 25, 2019 by agradeneu

[Igor]

Postage costs are a definite killer, from US especially. And fair comments above, for a game like Wyvern Tales, Zaku - $60 is not a big deal and completely appropriate. Other games should maybe be priced more appropriately. Going back to manufacturing costs, I know what's involved from the cart creation side - the prices start to become feasible in the 200+ copies range, haven't looked into boxes or manuals myself yet, but maybe that's something I will have to put some research into, it would make for an interesting article for Atari Gamer anyway.

 

Still waiting to hear about my offer of helping build demand. ?

[mmbe]

On 10/20/2019 at 7:36 AM, Songbird said:

Songbird Productions is pleased to announce Biniax 2 and Xump - The Final Run coming to the Atari Lynx by Jan 2020. Each game comes in a professionally molded cartridge with printed box and instructions, and an EEPROM for saved game data such as scores and passwords.

 

Biniax 2 is the tantalizing sequel to the Biniax puzzle game, and includes three play modes: Arcade, Tactic, and an all-new 2-player mode supported via link cable! BONUS: the original Biniax game is included too!

 

Xump - The Final Run brings the frantic Retroguru classic to the Atari Lynx. Race against the clock and clear the grid of dissolving tiles while avoiding bombs, one-way barriers, and other hazards!

 

Both games have been remastered and refined to provide maximum gaming pleasure on your Lynx system. Watch the Songbird Productions website for more details on these upcoming releases!

Carl, any update on the release dates for these games?

[Songbird]

Yes: January was too ambitious.  I'll now say "Spring 2020" which is looking doable...

[mmbe]

22 hours ago, Songbird said:

Yes: January was too ambitious.  I'll now say "Spring 2020" which is looking doable...

Thanks for the update.  Looking forward to these.

[Songbird]

First samples from the injection mold have arrived. They're pretty good, but need some retooling for mass production. So we're still a few weeks away from general release on Biniax 2 and Xump. Read more about it in my Songbird news blog.

[Nop90]

2 hours ago, Songbird said:

First samples from the injection mold have arrived. They're pretty good, but need some retooling for mass production. So we're still a few weeks away from general release on Biniax 2 and Xump. Read more about it in my Songbird news blog.

Seems that the last Biniax2 rom I sent you passed your quality test! ?

 

I really hope people will like this game, will be great to see people playing it in comlynx mode at one of the next demoparty.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Nop90

[Songbird]

It's a great game. I'm sure Lynx fans will be pleased.

 

[Igor]

Awesome news!

[+karri]

I really like Biniax2 a lot. It has just the right speed to keep it enjoyable.

Xump is also nice but there you cannot influence how the game goes. In Biniax2 there is much more freedom to play. A really well done game.

 

Now I seem to have more time to play games than ever before. Biniax2 was a nice experience. I actually played it on a big screen today using a Sony Classic PS emulating a Lynx. I am sure a Lynx would work as well. But I got a TV from my son and now I am trying to get all the features to work: Netflix, PS, Fruitbox (on a Pi), VCR + DVD players. Oh, I even connected an antenna. There is only crap and ads coming in through the cable.

[Nop90]

My copies of Xump and Biniax2 are on the way. I'm very exicited to receive them, only hope there will not be problem with the shipping. I heard of items returned to the sender for the COVID lockdown.

 

Only my packets from china continue arriving every week without problems (I'm a compulsive buyer on aliexpess ?).

[Songbird]

Hey, now, you're going to make everyone jealous! But I figured you, as the coder for both games, deserved the first samples.  Just a few more weeks, and they will be ready for general release... almost there!

 

[thefred]

Just ran across this video, 

 

[Fadest]

Thanks, seems like he didn't catch the concept of Raid on Tricity

[Songbird]

Biniax and Xump aren't ready for release yet, but here is a good sign: final shell samples approved for production!

 

 

Looking at ~4 weeks to get parts back from the factory. When I get close, I'll open up orders for both games. Almost there!

[Igor]

Those look good. The shipping situation is still terrible, I've had things in the mail between UK and Australia for almost 2 months now, domestic shipping is almost as bad with airlines having suspended most of their flights.

[Turbo Laser Lynx]

8 hours ago, Songbird said:

Biniax and Xump aren't ready for release yet, but here is a good sign: final shell samples approved for production!

 

 

Beautiful!

[Nop90]

Just received my copies of Xump and Biniax2

 

 

Instead of reviewing the quality of the cart and box manufactoring or the games (soon others will do it) I would like to tell about my exerience of publishig a game with Songbird Productions.

 

I started talking with Carl about publishing one of my games at the beginning of 2019 when he contacted me for Biniax, that was the first game I coded (or better ported) to Lynx. After almost two years of coding on lynx have to admit it was a really simple work and poorly coded. At that time I was aware of the fact it wasn't soo good for a commercial release, so proposed Carl to port Biniax2 , that based on the same game concept of Biniax, has a better graphics and an improved structure that makes it more enjoyable. I also proposed Carl to implement a multiplayer mode, that have to admit was a crazy objective at that time because Biniax2 sources  has a multiplayer mode only partially implemented, withoun the communication protocol part (AFAIK no other Biniax 2 port has the multiplayer mode) and there wasn't any open source working example of a game using the comlynx connection at that time.

 

It was a long and hard travel in the lynx coding: had to learn again coding in 6502 ASM after 35 years, and had to  bang my head against 8 bit way of thinking coming from years of 32 bit coding. Not to say that when I solved all the thecnical problems, had to manage hundreds of fix/changes/improvements requested by Carl.

 

Have to thank Carl, that is a really experienced SW engineer, because the final result is very polished and I could build a solid game template that I use for all my projects now.

 

I agreed with Carl to not release freely the digital rom of Biniax because he invested a lot of his time on this project, other than the moneys for the cart production. I hope the community will recognize all the work needed for this project.

 

As I said, in the other games I coded there is a lot of Biniax2 (Xump release at Revision 2019 was possble for my experience with Chipper made while converting the Biniax soundtrack, and 4ttude had the comlynx mode because it was already done for Biniax).

 

When Retroguru released Xump at last year Revison Game Compo, Carl proposed us to publish it too. It required a long negotiation because Retroguru wants to leave freely available the digital version of its games, that reduces the possible incomes for Carl, but in the end we fond a fair agreement for both.

 

Again it took several months of works to complete the refinings asked from Carl, but now Xump is polished as one would expect from a commercial release.

 

I will definively work again with Carl, he is an important member of the Atari Lynx scene. The only negative thing of Songbird Production from a coder point of view is the high cost of its releases, because this reduces the spread of the game, but this is an already disccussed point and I agree with him that the prices are in line with the cost of an high quality production.

 

I'm considering to publish one of my games on my own in the future trying to sell carts at a low price, just for the sake of trying something new, but I'm aware that I can't produce carts with the same quality of Carl and that in the end probably I'll lose moneys and a lot of time.

 

I think it's good that Carl offers an option to the developers to see one of their games comercially released if they can't on their own, like is also good for the scene that others release their games for free. In the same spirit I hope to collaborate with other game publisher in the future.

 

Meanwhile I hope that Carl will have a good return on his investment on this two games and that people will like them.