IDE+2 "Timing"?

[+Larry]

While trying to get my 800XL with Lotharek U1MB back in operation after a long hiatus, I could not get my IDE+2 to boot.  In fact, there was nothing but a "lockup" black screen -- identical to what I had seen recently while trying to sort out my Eclaire XL to recognize my IDE+2.  I had flashed the FJC's new U1MB firmware and thought that might be it, so went back to the original.  Still no response.  Rats!

 

I have two Rev D and one new Rev F1 IDE+2's.  The original testing was with the F1. Hey, let's try the D -- nothing, but but the same black screen. Maybe it's the CF card?  Different cards including an SD card + adapter also fail.  Ready to open up the 800XL and start checking things...  Then I thought -- gee, I'd better check the other Rev D.  Eureka! It comes right up.  I swapped the CF cards around -- the other two IDE+2's still don't work.  And this "D" works with all the other cards. 

 

Conclusion -- the timing(?) in these IDE+2's must be slightly different. To be clear, I'm not "blaming" the +2's -- ALL the +2's work with stock machines.  All the +2's (4 of them) work with my Antonia 4MB upgraded 600XL.  But only one of three work with this U1MB. The "D" that works has a single jumper wire between two chips.  The one that doesn't work has none. (Wonder why that wire is there?)  Further, only the "F1" works with the EclaireXL.  Neither of the D versions nor an E would work with my ECXL. (So only one of four work with my ECXL.)

 

Edit: they both have the same jumper wire. I somehow didn't see it initially.

 

Has anyone else run into this with the Ultimate 1MB or EclaireXL?  Is there a possible "fix" to get better compatibility? I would think that there is for the ECXL (it is still a WIP).  My "solution" for now is to label these as to what works with what.

 

-Larry

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

could be capacitance or drive... check out some of the old posts about phi timing and it's drive current. then check which two support chips are in your machine... I believe they are still responsible for keeping the bus/pbi driven at the proper level even if the u1m might be pulling it down slightly or shifting the timing in some way...

[Roydea6]

Larry,

This might be a bus ID # problem if both ID # are the same.

 

[flashjazzcat]

Yes: PBI clash as Roy suggests. Also check for an SDX clash as well. Both the IDE+ and U1MB have SDX built-in, and if both are enabled at the same time... problems.

 

The latest U1MB firmware is confirmed working with IDE+ providing both are set up correctly, which is to say different PBI IDs and no SDX contention. One may even use IDE+ and SIDE (PBI mode) at the same time. Depending on which device SDX is run from, one may need to fiddle with the 'ATR swap button' setting, since this will mask the ROM on the IDE+ and potentially stall HDD operations. But everything is tested and working smoothly.

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

since your mentioning only 1 working with the eclair xl

could you list how each ide2 is set up..

then how each u1m is set up as well..

finally eclair set up..

 

if we know what each one has it may help with finding the conflict.. rom/id/memory/and other config choices...

it's more likey timing issues affect the eclair XL

where as rom conflicts are more of a u1m thing...

Edited September 11, 2019 by _The Doctor__

[+Larry]

Right now, I have the the old firmware. Is the PBI ID set as shown on the attached pic?  I presume the "SIDE PBI ID" is the one you are talking about?  I don't believe that anything on the Ultimate pcb has been changed since I received it (other than flashing the firmware/roms). I can test the new firmware later, but it produced the same results, so I think it is not an issue.  For now, I'm not going to get into the EclaireXL other than what I've said about previous testing.

 

The two D versions are set identically.  It is SDX OFF, WP OFF, PBI=0

Yet one works and one does not. And I was incorrect earlier about the jumper wire -- they both have the jumper in the same place.  And again, they BOTH work perfectly on other computers.

 

I don't know how to check the ID of the F1 -- it is as it came, which I presume is 0. Perhaps someone can tell me how to check it (should be the same as Rev E).

 

I can set the ID of the one that works from 0 up to 7, and it works in any position.  I can set the ID to any position in the one that doesn't work, and it still doesn't work. BTW, I have nothing else attached to the 800XL other than SIO.

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

looks like it's update time for the u1m...

 

https://atari8.co.uk/firmware/ultimate-1mb/

 

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by _The Doctor__

[+Larry]

Did the firmware yesterday with the same results as here, (but didn't try the one that did work today).  Perfectly willing to try that again, but what would I change that might affect the outcome?

[flashjazzcat]

41 minutes ago, Larry said:

Is the PBI ID set as shown on the attached pic?  I presume the "SIDE PBI ID" is the one you are talking about?

It's set to device ID 3, which is actually device ID 2 (given that they actually run from 0-7, but the old BIOS numbers them 1-8). The BIOS allows every other ID number, so: 0, 2, 4, and 6, or in the old parlance 1, 3, 5, and 7. So clearly when using the original firmware, one might (for example) set the U1MB PBI ID to 1 and the IDE+ ID to 0 and think they're different, when they are in fact the same (ID 0) and thus clashing.

 

In any case: if you have up to date firmware and SDX and the PBI BIOS are both disabled in the U1MB setup menu, there is no possibility whatsoever that U1MB is preventing IDE+ from working by means of software conflicts. It then becomes a hardware matter.

 

[_The Doctor__]

That's important to note, as 0-7 has been the norm...

[Marius]

Perhaps dumb question, but did you change anything in the Master/Slave settings in the IDE+ menu? I know this can force these symptoms too...

 

 

 

[Marius]

@flashjazzcat Although this fix was not intend to fix this kind of issues... I had good effects with that CAP/RST-line fix. Could you share the details about that fix here? Or is it somewhere on the forum?

[flashjazzcat]

13 minutes ago, Marius said:

Could you share the details about that fix here? Or is it somewhere on the forum?

Both:

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

HIAS with the cap yes, but also scroll down to Beetle with the chip. Grabbing from from ANTIC is less preferable.  Some 1200's have other issues... ground etc... (cartridge port fixes etc) ...   reading your post seems your talking a few 800XL's though. the drive current is an issue on some machines as I had noted.

 

Give it all a good de-oxit treatment... if a marginal or flakey pbi/cart device starts working and then starts failing some months later... this sometimes can show drive issue at play as things oxidize again and slightly changes things again.

 

as to the 74 series chips 74LS  08's etc..

74ACT08 / 74F08 / 74HCT08  is the order in which I swap chips for phi/pbi issues select the one that works on the machine with as many devices as you can try. It normally takes care of the issue but if it improves and you still have some issues glitches in display etc... swap ANTIC

 

Make sure the under load power supply voltage is 5v or above up to 5.2...  (with all devices connected)

 

Try the chip swap.

Edited September 11, 2019 by _The Doctor__