Atari XL Mouse

[flashjazzcat]

47 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

JFC GUI

If Jesus F***ing Christ is working on a GUI, I can probably shelve my project. I'm sure it'll be amazing.

[Mr Robot]

It’ll be other worldly 

[Gunstar]

28 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

If Jesus F***ing Christ is working on a GUI, I can probably shelve my project. I'm sure it'll be amazing.

I think that is my most hilarious typo ever.

[Gunstar]

I can also confirm that the 2600 and 7800 cannot use true track-ball mode on the CX track-balls, as they are missing that little IC POKEY, which is a requirement for analog control here.

[manterola]

22 hours ago, Gunstar said:

That depends on which XL's. The CX22 (the track-ball I have) was released around the time of the 1200XL, just like the touch-tablet and ALL XL peripherals. XL peripherals started coming out just ahead of the 1200XL, and can be seen in late 800 ads along with 400/800 peripherals, but the CX22 is XL line, hence the colors. Then the 600/800XL came along and then the CX80. So what was your point? I don't see any beige track-balls around, and they aren't "track-ball mice" they are track-balls and will NOT work with stuff made for only mice, a separate driver is required. You can modify them to work like an Amiga/ST mouse, but they are not that way in stock condition.

I still don't understand why. But the regular missile command in real trackball mode (ctrl-t) is also compatible with st mouse (and it works great!!!) .  Other programs have that as a separate mode (trackball mode different from st mouse mode). 

I'm taking about the original code used in original cartridge of missile command. 

With the pile of knowledge here in this forum I'm sure we will understand why. 

[manterola]

22 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

I can also confirm that the 2600 and 7800 cannot use true track-ball mode on the CX track-balls, as they are missing that little IC POKEY, which is a requirement for analog control here.

AFAIK no analog input is used for real trackball mode. The digital inputs are use to feed  train of pulses to the machine which translate to incremental position (x and y) with respect to the starting coordinates point. 

So it is not like a pair paddle controllers, it is more like a pair of driver controllers. 

[Gunstar]

1 hour ago, manterola said:

AFAIK no analog input is used for real trackball mode. The digital inputs are use to feed  train of pulses to the machine which translate to incremental position (x and y) with respect to the starting coordinates point. 

So it is not like a pair paddle controllers, it is more like a pair of driver controllers. 

I didn't realize that the driving controllers weren't analog like the Paddles, I should have, since they were made for the 2600 and not the computers, since the 2600 doesn't have the POKEY for analog. But now that I stop and think about it, what about paddles on the 2600, as they were used by both the console and the 8-bits? And what about the Atari and Koala Touch-tablets too? I always assumed they used the POKEY POT lines too. Are they digital as well? Are they just used is a digital increment fashion on the 2600 like driving controllers?

I have a Super sketch tablet (see pic below) which I know does use pots for it's tracing arm and it works with graphic programs made for the Koala tablet and vice-versa. Up and Down are opposite if used with Atari touch-tablet apps, but it still works there too. And of course I think you can use paddles with those graphic programs if you want to draw like an Etcha-Sketch! So I guess I've answered my own question on the tablets being analog. I haven't gotten into controller devices at my level of learning programming yet to know and just assumed they were all analog devices that used the POKEY. And only the Atari track-ball had a digital joystick mode. I guess I;m just slapping myself with the answers as I ask them, as I'm realizing that analog pots on the controllers can just be programmed for the analog resistance levels to be converted to digital increments...But I thought the track-ball was true analog anyway...it's just my brain getting old, as it comes back to me eventually, like I just realized that the track-ball uses the light wheels for digital input and not analog pots of some sort! DUH!

Edited September 19, 2019 by Gunstar

[Swami]

3 hours ago, Gunstar said:

I never considered capitals as shouting personally, just for emphasis when it's only one or two words as it's easier than clicking and de-clicking italics or bold. I just don't mix-up the spoken and written word like that. Even if it's an all caps response, I never thought of it as shouting, maybe upset/perturbed/agitated or angry. And I never would have guessed that one word, "NOT", would have been what upset you. It was merely emphasis because often, people, including myself, may skim-read/speed-read a bit and missing a positive or negative gives one the opposite meaning. 

 

As to the track-balls, it does surprise me that they both came out in 1983, and that I thought my "pro-line" version was actually the earlier version, and they got cheaper with the CX80. For one I've never tried the CX80, but I didn't think the black ball would be as high quality as the white (mine has yellowed) ball which is actually a billiards cue-ball. But maybe the black-ball is a billiards style ball? I would only have ever associated it being called Pro-line, with the 7800, if it was black in color, instead of XL brown. Plus the fact that, IIRC, (and I could be wrong, I haven't owned a 7800 for over a decade) the 7800 never had any games for it that used a track-ball in true track-ball mode, only joystick mode. I think this is true if you used it on a 2600 as well. Only the Atari 8-bits and 5200 have true track-ball games, IIRC. And it's no rumor that Missile Command, and other games, have true track-ball mode options, and again, IIRC, it's an official cartridge release version (though there may have been more than one official version for all I know) that has track-ball compatibility just a Control+T combination or something to that effect. But there are other games,, like Centipede and Millipede (one or both) that can be used in true track-ball mode. And plenty of graphic art programs and desktops use true track-ball modes if a track-ball is chosen or setup as the input device.

The rumors about missile command is that there were versions that only worked on the 400/800 and others that only worked on the xl\xe as well as others that only worked with the cx22/cx80 while others only worked with the ST mouse. I believe the result of all my search and tests of carts and the built in XEGS rom is that they all work with everything and a rumored silver missile command cart that only worked with the xl/xe either doesn’t exist or was handed out privately in very small numbers, since no evidence of it can be found. It still amazes me that missile commands put out years before the ST mouse was released in the 400/800 labeled boxes work with both the Trak-balls and the ST mice.

 

 Another rumor was that Atari made later cx80s as actual ST mice you could use with mouse programs. Such CX80s exist as a small percentage like 5–10%, but all evidence is that they were modified after manufacture by distributors or DIY owners. Some folks over in Europe say that in some parts of Europe the number of CX80s they know of are mostly ones that operate as ST mice. This may also be part of what associates the CX80s with the 8bit computers, since those and the ST itself were the only ataris using the ST mouse in the 80s. 

[Gunstar]

@Swami That makes sense since it's such a simple fix to convert the rest of the Atari track-balls to ST mouse compatibility anyway.?

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, Gunstar said:

I didn't realize that the driving controllers weren't analog like the Paddles, I should have, since they were made for the 2600 and not the computers, since the 2600 doesn't have the POKEY for analog. But now that I stop and think about it, what about paddles on the 2600, as they were used by both the console and the 8-bits? And what about the Atari and Koala Touch-tablets too? I always assumed they used the POKEY POT lines too. Are they digital as well? Are they just used is a digital increment fashion on the 2600 like driving controllers?

I have a Super sketch tablet (see pic below) which I know does use pots for it's tracing arm and it works with graphic programs made for the Koala tablet and vice-versa. Up and Down are opposite if used with Atari touch-tablet apps, but it still works there too. And of course I think you can use paddles with those graphic programs if you want to draw like an Etcha-Sketch! So I guess I've answered my own question on the tablets being analog. I haven't gotten into controller devices at my level of learning programming yet to know and just assumed they were all analog devices that used the POKEY. And only the Atari track-ball had a digital joystick mode. I guess I;m just slapping myself with the answers as I ask them, as I'm realizing that analog pots on the controllers can just be programmed for the analog resistance levels to be converted to digital increments...But I thought the track-ball was true analog anyway...it's just my brain getting old, as it comes back to me eventually, like I just realized that the track-ball uses the light wheels for digital input and not analog pots of some sort! DUH!

The "Tennis" controllers are analog potentiometers.  The TIA handles them in the 2600, the PoKey handles them on the computer line.  The "Driving" controllers use 2-bit grey code, I believe using the left & right buttons in a sequence of 00, 01, 10, 11.  In this case, the PIA is responsible for reading them on the computers, they are treated like a joystick.

[Gavin1968]

20 hours ago, Gunstar said:

And in desperate need of at least a cleaning, if not a good painting anyway!

You said you wanted one for size, that is a cheap one, who cares about the condition...

 

[Gunstar]

23 minutes ago, Gavin1968 said:

You said you wanted one for size, that is a cheap one, who cares about the condition...

 

It wasn't I who wanted one, I have one, the XL painted one earlier in the thread. you are confusing me with someone else. And the statement was not meant as a negative, or sarcasm, but sincerely as a positive as it would be a perfect candidate for restoration, and not screwing with one in good condition-save it for an ST/XE. Otherwise I would have had an emoticon afterwards probably.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Gunstar

[Mr Robot]

It was I who wanted one but I didn't complain about the condition of that one, it seemed reasonable but had 5 days left on the auction. Since then it has doubled in cost and given that there are still 4 days left to go on the auction will probably reach the same cost as one on fleabay. 

 

@slx has kindly stepped up and offered to measure the 8 points I need measurements for so I don't need to go and buy something I'll never use.

 

[+slx]

2 hours ago, Swami said:

The rumors about missile command is that there were versions that only worked on the 400/800 and others that only worked on the xl\xe as well as others that only worked with the cx22/cx80 while others only worked with the ST mouse. I believe the result of all my search and tests of carts and the built in XEGS rom is that they all work with everything and a rumored silver missile command cart that only worked with the xl/xe either doesn’t exist or was handed out privately in very small numbers, since no evidence of it can be found. It still amazes me that missile commands put out years before the ST mouse was released in the 400/800 labeled boxes work with both the Trak-balls and the ST mice.

 

I recall an interview with Rob Zdybel, the programmer of the Original 8-bit Missile Command who said that he programmed Trackball versions but only gave them to people who built themselves a trackball (this being well before the Atari trackballs but probably with people being able to ‚borrow‘ parts from Coin-op across the/some street(s). 

 

This is mentioned here:  

 

[Lost Dragon]

On 9/18/2019 at 6:04 PM, Gunstar said:

That is where I purchased mine. Here is the proper page that shows all the Atari designed mats: https://www.rhayadercomputers.co.uk/Atari_Mats/cat4866956_4165410.aspx

There is an 800 one there too, and I doubt ANYTHING is exclusive to Greyfox books, it's all from somewhere else and "borrowed" by the Kickstarter book.

You see the white line of text on the Atari 400 mouse mat here:

 

https://www.rhayadercomputers.co.uk/atari_400/p4866955_17641956.aspx

 

It reads "mouse mat created and designed by Darren Doyle".

 

I've no idea if they are exclusive to Rhayader computers. .but they were part of the perks Greyfox talked of for backers of his book, many months ago.

 

 

There should be one for the 800XL and 130 XE.

 

Plan was back then to offer them as perks for kickstarter backers but not limit them just to the book backers, but make them avaiable to the wider Atari community. 

 

 

Looks like this part of the campaign has been met.

 

 

 

[Lost Dragon]

@Swami when the hacks for turning the CX80 into an Atari ST and Amiga mouse started to appear, rumour seemed to be they had originated from an Ex-Commodore employee.

[Gunstar]

28 minutes ago, Lost Dragon said:

You see the white line of text on the Atari 400 mouse mat here:

 

https://www.rhayadercomputers.co.uk/atari_400/p4866955_17641956.aspx

 

It reads "mouse mat created and designed by Darren Doyle".

 

I've no idea if they are exclusive to Rhayader computers. .but they were part of the perks Greyfox talked of for backers of his book, many months ago.

 

 

There should be one for the 800XL and 130 XE.

 

Plan was back then to offer them as perks for kickstarter backers but not limit them just to the book backers, but make them avaiable to the wider Atari community. 

 

 

Looks like this part of the campaign has been met.

 

 

 

Yes, the mat I am using has Darren Doyle, If I noticed it before, I didn't associate his name with Greyfox, etc. Sorry my mistake. But I do know that I purchased these mats about a year ago, give or take a month or two (it might have even been two Christmas's ago in the fall of 2017 ) and I discovered them via a friend who discovered them on Rhayader computers and it had nothing to do with Greyfox/Darren's kick-starter affair. Not that it matters to me if Darren designed them or is giving away, as a perk, mats designed by someone else. Either way it is a cool perk, but you can obviously get them anyway and they aren't exlusive to the kick-starter project as they seem to have been available via Rhayader at least as long as they were offered as a Kick-starter perk.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Gunstar

[Lost Dragon]

24 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

Yes, the mat I am using has Darren Doyle, If I noticed it before, I didn't associate his name with Greyfox, etc. Sorry my mistake. But I do know that I purchased these mats about a year ago, give or take a month or two. And I discovered them via a friend who discovered them on Rhayader computers and it had nothing to do with Greyfox/Darren's kickstarter affair. Not that it matters to me if Darren designed them or is giving away, as a perk, mats designed by someone else. Either way it is a cool perk, but you can obviously get them anyway.

I honestly could not give you any more details than what i have.

 

The kickstarter campain was never something i was asked to assist with, possibly because Darran knew i had never backed any such campains in my life (still haven't ?)..but in with the ideas were the Mouse Mats he said he had designed and they were going to be used as one aspect of the campain.

 

It's good things like this are avaiable to the much wider Atari community as they look great.

 

 

I've not owned a PC in years so no need of a Mouse Mat ...period, but often tempted to buy things like these if they appear in the form of coasters etc.

 

I'm still a sucker for Atari imagery from my youth. 

 

Edited September 21, 2019 by Lost Dragon
Damn autocorrect on Phone ?

[Jeffrey Worley]

59 minutes ago, Lost Dragon said:

You see the white line of text on the Atari 400 mouse mat here:

 

https://www.rhayadercomputers.co.uk/atari_400/p4866955_17641956.aspx

 

It reads "mouse mat created and designed by Darren Doyle".

 

I've no idea if they are exclusive to Rhayader computers. .but they were part of the perks Greyfox talked of for backers of his book, many months ago.

 

 

There should be one for the 800XL and 130 XE.

 

Plan was back then to offer them as perks for kickstarter backers but not limit them just to the book backers, but make them avaiable to the wider Atari community. 

 

 

Looks like this part of the campaign has been met.

 

 

 

Not all.  I was playing around with some new pads and a spraycan some months ago, made a stencil.  I use this every day, even if the experiment didn't quite work out the way I'd hoped...

 

Jeff

[Jeffrey Worley]

On 9/19/2019 at 12:35 PM, flashjazzcat said:

If Jesus F***ing Christ is working on a GUI, I can probably shelve my project. I'm sure it'll be amazing.

JFC, FJC, close enough for government work.  The comparison is certainly flattering.

 

Best,

 

Jeff

[flashjazzcat]

2 minutes ago, Technoid Mutant said:

The comparison is certainly flattering.

Did I at any point imply otherwise?

 

[Lost Dragon]

@Gunstar:A quick look at Greyfoxes rewards section on the books Kickstarter page has the Atari 800 and Rescue On Fractulas Mouse  mats as limited Editions. .not avaiable for purchase after Kickstarter funding campain ended.

 

So it appears he split the items.

 

@Technoid Mutant:I meant Greyfox did go through with what he proposed back in the earliest days of the Book concept..Atari-Themed mouse mats were part of the rewards for Backers.

[Gunstar]

10 minutes ago, Lost Dragon said:

@Gunstar:A quick look at Greyfoxes rewards section on the books Kickstarter page has the Atari 800 and Rescue On Fractulas Mouse  mats as limited Editions. .not avaiable for purchase after Kickstarter funding campain ended.

 

So it appears he split the items.

 

@Technoid Mutant:I meant Greyfox did go through with what he proposed back in the earliest days of the Book concept..Atari-Themed mouse mats were part of the rewards for Backers.

Is the funding campaign still going on? Because they are both still available from Rhayader Computers RoF is on the second page here: https://www.rhayadercomputers.co.uk/index.aspx?pageid=4866956&category=4165410&Page=2

 

And the 800 mat is still for sale on the first page I linked earlier that you can get to from the link above by selecting the first page at the bottom. As well as Koronis Rift and lots of others. In fact, I think I want them all, now that I look through them again! I think I may have to start collecting them! Hopefully one for the 1200XL will be made too eventually.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Gunstar

[Guest]

On 9/19/2019 at 5:35 PM, flashjazzcat said:

If Jesus F***ing Christ is working on a GUI, I can probably shelve my project. I'm sure it'll be amazing.

@flashjazzcat well I don't doubt JFC will produce a GUI that runs in 5 simultaneous windows using only 2k of ram  ?

 

Edited September 21, 2019 by Guest

[Jeffrey Worley]

9 minutes ago, brenski said:

@flashjazzcat well I don't doubt JFC will produce a GUI that runs in 5 simultaneous windows using only 2k of ram  ?

 

FJC will produce one that runs on a pumped-up XL, which isn't all that different, really.  Have you seen the demos? OMG this thing is just STUPID man.  It has process id's, a task manager, un-freaking-believable.  I wonder about compatibility with existing software, but it might not even be possible.  When MTOS came out in the mid-80's I was impressed.  I had serious Coco3 OS/9 envy at the time and wished for something for the Atari that could hold a candle to it.  This might be that thing and then some.

 

Best,

 

Jeff

 

Jeff