[AQUARIUS] lets look at the x10 command console

[rietveld]

 

 

[decle]

Very cool.  I wonder if the X-10 controller would be compatible with the ECS too?

 

It seems that the Aquarius tape interface runs at ~600 baud (this is a bit data dependent as spaces are twice as long as marks) based on carrier frequencies of 1667Hz and 833Hz.

 

I think the ECS is similar, but runs its cassette interface at half this speed, ~300 baud, using different carrier frequencies (4800Hz and 2400Hz).  It doesn't look good.

 

However, you mentioned in the YouTube comments that the hardware was later released as the Radio Shack Appliance and Light Controller for use with the TRS-80 Color Computer.  This is interesting, as the Color Computer uses a different baud rate and set of carrier frequencies for its cassette tape again (1500 baud and 2400Hz / 1200Hz).  So perhaps not all is lost?

 

Paging the ECS Guru, @Lathe26

 

 

[rietveld]

I am sure that someone could write the necessary code to have the x10 work with the ECS. The 'mic' and 'ear' connection is just used to write and read to/from the controller. I doubt that the baud rate would have any effect (other than how fast it performs this task). 

 

The trs80 version of the controller is easy to get and pretty cheap as its incompatable with the more popular color computer 3. The actual hardware does work with the coco3 but the software uses an unsupported semi graphics 

 

[+Lathe26]

6 hours ago, decle said:

Very cool.  I wonder if the X-10 controller would be compatible with the ECS too?

 

It seems that the Aquarius tape interface runs at ~600 baud (this is a bit data dependent as spaces are twice as long as marks) based on carrier frequencies of 1667Hz and 833Hz.

 

I think the ECS is similar, but runs its cassette interface at half this speed, ~300 baud, using different carrier frequencies (4800Hz and 2400Hz).  It doesn't look good.

 

However, you mentioned in the YouTube comments that the hardware was later released as the Radio Shack Appliance and Light Controller for use with the TRS-80 Color Computer.  This is interesting, as the Color Computer uses a different baud rate and set of carrier frequencies for its cassette tape again (1500 baud and 2400Hz / 1200Hz).  So perhaps not all is lost?

 

Paging the ECS Guru, @Lathe26

 

 

Using the audio in/out ports on the ECS probably won't work since (going from memory) changing the baud rate does not change the carrier frequencies of 2400Hz and 4800Hz.  It just shortens the time interval.

 

However... if there are RS-232 signals available, then 600 baud is something the ECS can do via its AUX port.

[+MattelAquarius]

This is awesome!  Nice work!

 

 

I will definitely need to get a setup going.  Just need to rewire the cable, right?  Amazing.

 

Now I'm wondering if X-10 signals would get drowned out by my powerline Ethernet system.  Maybe it would still work in a very local location, like you showed in the video.  Oh well, I wouldn't use it for actual whole house control anyways, since Alexa, Wemo, and Hue rule my house nowadays anyway.

 

I'll need to source some X-10 appliance modules, too.

 

Thank you for doing this!

[jaybird3rd]

Indeed, very well done!  You're probably the first person in many years to see those screens in the X10 prototype software.  When I added the prototype to the Aquaricart collection, this is exactly what I hoped someone would be able to do with it someday.  (Actually, I hoped to do it myself, but you beat me to it!)  I'm glad to know that changing the pinout is all that was needed to get the command module working with the Aquarius again.

[+MattelAquarius]

Yes, I loved the screen showing the rooms and house.  Very creative use of the Aquarius character set and colors.  I would have been giddy to have this back in the day!  As a youngster, I loved the movie "Electric Dreams", and this would have played directly into that.

[rietveld]

9 hours ago, jaybird3rd said:

Indeed, very well done!  You're probably the first person in many years to see those screens in the X10 prototype software.  When I added the prototype to the Aquaricart collection, this is exactly what I hoped someone would be able to do with it someday.  (Actually, I hoped to do it myself, but you beat me to it!)  I'm glad to know that changing the pinout is all that was needed to get the command module working with the Aquarius again.

Thank you for the Aquaricart ; and providing all of this software for us.  

[jaybird3rd]

22 minutes ago, rietveld said:

Thank you for the Aquaricart ; and providing all of this software for us.  

Thank you!  Now that you've worked out the details, hopefully it will inspire others to try it with their own Aquarius computers.  It's nice to see the X10 hardware and software finally used as it was originally intended, albeit about 35 years later!

[Pernod]

@rietveldhave you ever taken a look inside your X10 Command Console?

 

My understanding is that it must be a simple computer as it's always on (with battery backed RAM?), and the Aquarius is only used to program it. I'd like to emulate the device to at least allow the Aquarius software to detect it and interact with it.

 

Would you be willing to post some decent photos of it's internals, and maybe dump any ROM found in there?

[rietveld]

11 hours ago, Pernod said:

@rietveldhave you ever taken a look inside your X10 Command Console?

 

My understanding is that it must be a simple computer as it's always on (with battery backed RAM?), and the Aquarius is only used to program it. I'd like to emulate the device to at least allow the Aquarius software to detect it and interact with it.

 

Would you be willing to post some decent photos of it's internals, and maybe dump any ROM found in there?

You are correct.  The Aquarius is only used to send the DATA to the controller.

I can post pics for you

[MackJsy]

The cassette interface on the Aquarius is actually one in the same as used by the single "sound" channel, so you can output any frequencies you want by changing the on/off duration - the baud rate is controlled by the length of the tone, the frequency by the on-off duration. 

Unlike some machines, say Oric 1/Atmos that use a UART, the Aquarius does it the exactly the same as the ZX spectrum, a simple on/off single bit controlled on port FC Bit 0 (out) for write and Bit 0 (in) for read

 

Years ago I wrote a modified loader that would load Sinclair tape files, as well as doing a few speed loader type things.

If you didn't know, the sound output is available at the cassette port (as well as the AY output from the Mini expander!)

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by MackJsy

[rietveld]

On 11/1/2020 at 7:18 PM, rietveld said:

You are correct.  The Aquarius is only used to send the DATA to the controller.

I can post pics for you

 

On 11/1/2020 at 7:49 AM, Pernod said:

@rietveldhave you ever taken a look inside your X10 Command Console?

 

My understanding is that it must be a simple computer as it's always on (with battery backed RAM?), and the Aquarius is only used to program it. I'd like to emulate the device to at least allow the Aquarius software to detect it and interact with it.

 

Would you be willing to post some decent photos of it's internals, and maybe dump any ROM found in there?

Inside the x10 https://imgur.com/gallery/9zB0zvT

 

here are some pics

[Pernod]

7 minutes ago, rietveld said:

 

Inside the x10 https://imgur.com/gallery/9zB0zvT

 

here are some pics

Thanks for those, and confirms what I expected.

 

So there's a 8048 CPU and 2K of static RAM. That CPU has 1K of internal ROM, which would need extracting to be emulated. I don't know how accessible the ROM is but if it's dumpable without destroying the device would you be able to do it? I can make some enquires on how to do it if it's likely to happen.

[rietveld]

2 minutes ago, Pernod said:

Thanks for those, and confirms what I expected.

 

So there's a 8048 CPU and 2K of static RAM. That CPU has 1K of internal ROM, which would need extracting to be emulated. I don't know how accessible the ROM is but if it's dumpable without destroying the device would you be able to do it? I can make some enquires on how to do it if it's likely to happen.

i dont mind if you let me know how to dump it

[MackJsy]

17 hours ago, Pernod said:

So there's a 8048 CPU and 2K of static RAM. That CPU has 1K of internal ROM, which would need extracting to be emulated. I don't know how accessible the ROM is but if it's dumpable without destroying the device would you be able to do it? I can make some enquires on how to do it if it's likely to happen.

 

Can be done, need a bit of hardware and software - seems it's pretty easy to actually read the internal ROM

 

https://www.sbprojects.net/projects/8049spy/index.php

 

[Pernod]

2 hours ago, MackJsy said:

 

Can be done, need a bit of hardware and software - seems it's pretty easy to actually read the internal ROM

 

https://www.sbprojects.net/projects/8049spy/index.php

 

Yeah, I found that too. The Oki will at least need to be removed from the board for any attempt at dumping it. Is this something that @rietveldwould be willing to do? I suspect not.

 

Realistically, I think a donor X10 Controller would need to be found/purchased and sent to someone that's dumped these types before. I have the contacts.

 

Even if/when we have a dump of the 1K ROM the most I could emulate would be that the Aquarius X10 cartridge would detect the Controller being present and be able to program it. It's a nice to have, and interesting emulation task to document the software, but ultimately is it worth the sacrifice of a working Controller. How common/rare are they anyway?

[jaybird3rd]

1 minute ago, Pernod said:

Yeah, I found that too. The Oki will at least need to be removed from the board for any attempt at dumping it. Is this something that @rietveldwould be willing to do? I suspect not.

 

Realistically, I think a donor X10 Controller would need to be found/purchased and sent to someone that's dumped these types before. I have the contacts.

 

Even if/when we have a dump of the 1K ROM the most I could emulate would be that the Aquarius X10 cartridge would detect the Controller being present and be able to program it. It's a nice to have, and interesting emulation task to document the software, but ultimately is it worth the sacrifice of a working Controller. How common/rare are they anyway?

The X10 contollers show up on eBay from time to time.  I bought one late last year for about $20 shipped.  I'd be glad to send it to you if that would help to dump the microcontroller code, though postage to the UK might be prohibitively expensive.

[Pernod]

2 minutes ago, jaybird3rd said:

The X10 contollers show up on eBay from time to time.  I bought one late last year for about $20 shipped.  I'd be glad to send it to you if that would help to dump the microcontroller code, though postage to the UK might be prohibitively expensive.

Would you be willing to sacrifice it? I know someone who may be able to do it in OK,USA if that's more convenient? Will contact him to see if he's able and willing.

[jaybird3rd]

1 minute ago, Pernod said:

Would you be willing to sacrifice it? I know someone who may be able to do it in OK,USA if that's more convenient? Will contact him to see if he's able and willing.

Certainly, send me a PM if your contact is available to dump it; if so, I'll be glad to send it on its way.

[rietveld]

On 11/1/2020 at 7:49 AM, Pernod said:

@rietveldhave you ever taken a look inside your X10 Command Console?

 

My understanding is that it must be a simple computer as it's always on (with battery backed RAM?), and the Aquarius is only used to program it. I'd like to emulate the device to at least allow the Aquarius software to detect it and interact with it.

 

Would you be willing to post some decent photos of it's internals, and maybe dump any ROM found in there?

here is the pinout for the cable to use with the x10 and aquarius.   

This is the pinout modification to connect the Tandy x10 controller (which was originally designed for the Aquarius) to the Aquarius cassette port 

 

Controller         to        Aquarius 

 

Pin 1.                          Pin 4

Pin 2.                          Pin 2

Pin 3.                          pin 5

Pin 4.                          Pin 3

Pin 5.                          Pin 1 

 

[Pernod]

41 minutes ago, rietveld said:

here is the pinout for the cable to use with the x10 and aquarius.   

 

Don't suppose you traced out any of the circuit?

[rietveld]

13 hours ago, Pernod said:

Don't suppose you traced out any of the circuit?

i can if you like,  what part ?

 

[Pernod]

On 11/8/2020 at 6:16 AM, rietveld said:

i can if you like,  what part ?

 

Good question ... when I emulate it I'll be focusing on how the cassette port is handled, so need to know where those lines go. The Oki has two data ports (check datasheet for pinout) so would be useful knowing which are connected to anything, don't focus on anything going to the X10 output. There's an interrupt line on pin 6, is it connected to anything? It's communication via the cassette port that needs to be understood. There must be a crystal on there somewhere too which I'll need to know the frequency of.

[nickle241]

On 11/7/2020 at 10:18 AM, rietveld said:

here is the pinout for the cable to use with the x10 and aquarius.   

This is the pinout modification to connect the Tandy x10 controller (which was originally designed for the Aquarius) to the Aquarius cassette port 

 

Controller         to        Aquarius 

 

Pin 1.                          Pin 4

Pin 2.                          Pin 2

Pin 3.                          pin 5

Pin 4.                          Pin 3

Pin 5.                          Pin 1 

 

just double checking, how are those pins arranged?  my research points to aquarius having a 14253 pin numbering pattern but i cant find any info at all regarding how the x10 is pinned and i cant be sure if you are actually using the aquarius pin numbers or the universal standard numbering for 5 pin din connectors

edit: correction on my part, i was misreading the midi din pinout and mistook it for a sequential pattern so you are probably using the interleaved numbering

Edited June 14, 2022 by nickle241