Lost Dragon Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 4 hours ago, agradeneu said: I'm not sure about that assumption. Too bad Marc Rosocha or Michael Bittner of Eclipse are not active in the community today to give some valid insight to that - they were pushing 3D engine tech for the Jaguar really hard and probably the reason Atari demanded more texture mapping from other developers as well. But not everyone could pull it off. Here's ATD talking about Atari insisting on Texture Mapping: It was Leonard that wanted us to texture map everything in BattleMorph, and it was Leonard that insisted everything was textured in Hover Strike with disastrous results. Something that had been quite playable at 15-20fps, was crippled down to an unplayable 5fps as a result (it was only later that the Iron Soldier guys discovered a ‘hack’ which allowed the texture palette to be a texture source, doubling the speed of texture mapping for small textures). http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/rvg-interviews-fred-gill/ Eclipse were the guys that discovered the work around, Atari were asking developers to texture map way before the hack was discovered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adriano Arcade Posted October 18, 2019 Author Share Posted October 18, 2019 Thank you so much everyone for your top answers! I have selected a few and will use in my pod! You guys are the best!!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Lost Dragon said: Here's ATD talking about Atari insisting on Texture Mapping: It was Leonard that wanted us to texture map everything in BattleMorph, and it was Leonard that insisted everything was textured in Hover Strike with disastrous results. Something that had been quite playable at 15-20fps, was crippled down to an unplayable 5fps as a result (it was only later that the Iron Soldier guys discovered a ‘hack’ which allowed the texture palette to be a texture source, doubling the speed of texture mapping for small textures). http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/rvg-interviews-fred-gill/ Eclipse were the guys that discovered the work around, Atari were asking developers to texture map way before the hack was discovered. Honestly for that matter I rather like to hear from the Eclipse guys themselves than from some second and third hand sources. Its interesting that an alleged "hack" by the Iron Soldier guys improved BM perfomance significantly, ironically it's faster than Cybermorph. But how you think the "hack" was newly "discovered"? What they most likely just did was optimizing the engines of other devs/helping them out by their knowlegde/expierience they have gained while developing Iron Soldier, which already had that object texture mapping without speed issues. Their own I.S.engine is much more capable than BM or CM, no contest, and they discovered some tricks for texturing the ground and more buildings for the CD sequel, while improving the quality of small textures for objects. Found a textured fractal landscape demo by M. Rosocha, says Dec 1994. You can play the ROM with VJ. Looks similar to that in the additional levels of Hover Strike CD sequel. But he was not credited for that game, so... https://demozoo.org/productions/154300/ Edited October 18, 2019 by agradeneu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 1 hour ago, agradeneu said: Honestly for that matter I rather like to hear from the Eclipse guys themselves than from some second and third hand sources. Its interesting that an alleged "hack" by the Iron Soldier guys improved BM perfomance significantly, ironically it's faster than Cybermorph. But how you think the "hack" was newly "discovered"? What they most likely just did was optimizing the engines of other devs/helping them out by their knowlegde/expierience they have gained while developing Iron Soldier, which already had that object texture mapping without speed issues. Their own I.S.engine is much more capable than BM or CM, no contest, and they discovered some tricks for texturing the ground and more buildings for the CD sequel, while improving the quality of small textures for objects. Don't dismiss ATD out of hand. They were the ones Atari tasked with debugging the Jaguar chipper and asked for some changes to be made to it as a result. I'd have to see Eclipse go into detail as to how the hack was discovered,but unlike ATD, Jeff Minter, WTR and Missile Command 3D coders, Eclipse are far harder to find talking about their experiences with the Jaguar and Jag CD. You talked of the possibility of Atari asking for texturing in Jaguar games after seeing Eclipse's work. I'm just giving 3 examples that highlight Atari simply wanted to compete with platforms from 3DO,Sony and Sega. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Lost Dragon said: Don't dismiss ATD out of hand. They were the ones Atari tasked with debugging the Jaguar chipper and asked for some changes to be made to it as a result. I'd have to see Eclipse go into detail as to how the hack was discovered,but unlike ATD, Jeff Minter, WTR and Missile Command 3D coders, Eclipse are far harder to find talking about their experiences with the Jaguar and Jag CD. You talked of the possibility of Atari asking for texturing in Jaguar games after seeing Eclipse's work. I'm just giving 3 examples that highlight Atari simply wanted to compete with platforms from 3DO,Sony and Sega. Eclipse might be the best (or only credible) source for anything 3D on the Jaguar as they were responsible for supervising a lot of projects and crafted to most capable 3D engine on the Jaguar by a country mile. Marc Rosocha stated that Atari appoached them after seeing Iron Soldier in summer 1994. Their engine already had the object texture mapping in place and was way faster than Cybermorph. Atari then wanted them to transfer their engine knowledge to other projects too, like e.g. Battlemorph. He further writes that Eclipse was at the centre of their 3D engine strategy. Source is: Return of the Borders, Foreword by M. Rosocha pp 6-8 It just a fact that the "hack" was part of their Iron Solider engine tech summer 1994 and not "newly discovered" by incident. You can also play the fractal landscape demos of Dec. 1994, I put the link in my post above. Edited October 18, 2019 by agradeneu added infos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 5 hours ago, agradeneu said: Eclipse might be the best (or only credible) source for anything 3D on the Jaguar as they were responsible for supervising a lot of projects and crafted to most capable 3D engine on the Jaguar by a country mile. Marc Rosocha stated that Atari appoached them after seeing Iron Soldier in summer 1994. Their engine already had the object texture mapping in place and was way faster than Cybermorph. Atari then wanted them to transfer their engine knowledge to other projects too, like e.g. Battlemorph. He further writes that Eclipse was at the centre of their 3D engine strategy. Source is: Return of the Borders, Foreword by M. Rosocha pp 6-8 It just a fact that the "hack" was part of their Iron Solider engine tech summer 1994 and not "newly discovered" by incident. You can also play the fractal landscape demos of Dec. 1994, I put the link in my post above. Whilst i have the utmost respect for Eclipse and not only what they achieved on the Jaguar but also how they used it, i am not personally a huge fan of putting individuals or individual groups above others when it comes to the Jaguar. It was a complex machine, blighted from the start with bugs and poor development tools. Anyone who got decent 3D performance out of it,did well in my book. Rebellion with Skyhammer was another technical showcase for it. I have a soft spot for the chunky 3D of Zero 5, so thumbs up to Campaign.. Dactyl Joust was showing real promise, so HVS deserves respect there and i would of loved to of seen that Doom Engine Adisak was working on. If i have any criticsm of ATD, it's the poor art design. Ship and building designs looked crude in Cybermorph. I've not read the book you mention,but sounds like my kinda read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 Adding to the likes of ATD, Imagitec Design, Teque etc who have stated it was Atari who asked for games to be texture mapped... Caspain Software with Zero 5: "The only reason we put ANY texture mapping in Zero 5 was to keep Atari happy. Although once it was in, I think it did work very nicely on the asteroids ..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adriano Arcade Posted October 27, 2019 Author Share Posted October 27, 2019 On 10/16/2019 at 4:11 PM, Adriano Arcade said: Dear all, Very soon my good buddy Dyl and I will be recording our 3rd Jag CD / Mega CD episode for Arcade Attack. I was wondering if I could ask for your help? I would love to hear your answers on the following questions - which I will use in the podcast! I am recording this coming Sunday: QUESTION 1 - Was there any chance the Jag CD could have been successful, and if so how could this have happened? QUESTION 2 - Which 3 dream games do you feel would have been the most popular / influential if they were released on the Jag CD back in 95? QUESTION 3 - Do you feel there is room for a new JagDuo Mini and if so, which must have games and accessories should be incorporated? Plus feel free to throw me any random Jaguar / Jag CD facts and cool stories. Thanks all! Much love! Adrian P.s. the previous Jag CD / Mega CD pods can be found here: https://www.arcadeattack.co.uk/podcast-november-1-2018/ https://www.arcadeattack.co.uk/podcast-june-4-2018/ Here it is chaps! The 3rd and possibly final Jag CD and Mega CD podcast from Arcade Attack. Please note I did use a lot of the feedback from this fine forum and thread! Please do give the podcast a listen and let me know what you think: Podbean: https://arcadeattackpodcast.podbean.com/e/jaguar-cd-sega-mega-cd-final-thoughts/ Itunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jaguar-cd-sega-mega-cd-final-thoughts/id1174983594?i=1000454889421 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2DbqA3R3Opj1zWByRI50di Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/arcade-attack-retro-gaming-podcast Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8yAEbLq5g0&t=10s 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 (edited) On Earlies ? So will be spreading this across the next few nights. Can't wait ?... Update:You guys have me in stitches here, loving this. Edited October 27, 2019 by Lost Dragon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adriano Arcade Posted October 28, 2019 Author Share Posted October 28, 2019 14 hours ago, Lost Dragon said: On Earlies ? So will be spreading this across the next few nights. Can't wait ?... Update:You guys have me in stitches here, loving this. Thanks Lost Dragon! Your feedback helped make the pod great!!! Glad you enjoyed! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Bit late on this one and given what's now known on state of Hand Made Software might be bit biased, but.. Kasumi Ninja coder Peter Wiseman, joined Jim Gregory in blaming the Tramiel family for ruining the Jaguar, saying the flushed a machine with real potential down the toilet. Any game produced took 3X as long as it should of as Atari insisted on changes to graphics that had previously been approved, at a whim, wanted performance from the Jaguar that was impossible, but Atari believed the Jaguar had the power of 10 Super Computers... Developer support was awful and Atari simply lost the support of any developer who still had any faith in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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