Ownership of IP

[Flojomojo]

I wanted to continue this conversation that came up in the taco/"VCS" thread in a more appropriate spot. 

 

Per @carlsson -- looks like a UK organization called Subversive has the rights to a few Philips titles. 

Quote

Games formally owned by Infogrames (Beam/Melbourne House, Phillips, Ocean), to include; The Horace series (and character), Penetrator, Terror-Daktil 4D, the Mugsy series, the Videopac series (many titles to include Air-Sea War, Battle, Race, Spin Out, Cryptogram, etc. etc.), 

I assume these are equivalent to the North American titles "Armored Encounter!/Sub Chase!" and "Speedway/Spin-Out/Crypto-Logic!" but what is unclear is whether Subversive has worldwide rights, or only in UK or European regions?

 

I remember a Videopac emulator came out on Android several years ago, authored by one of the original game developers, ostensibly with the permission of Philips. 

 

Does anyone know the legal state of the others? I am not a huge fan of opportunistic IP grabs, but abandonment rather than putting them into public domain seems less than perfect, too. 

[carlsson]

Based on what I've just read and watched, I really hope this is a very limited catalog of Videopac IP. Otherwise the O2/Videopac community might be in for some big sh*t happening in the near future. ?

[Flojomojo]

Explain how? What did you see @carlsson and does this IP holder share our values and interests?

[carlsson]

There is a Twitter / YouTube drama going on where one of the persons behind this company launched two copyright strikes in a row against a girl who's been using the ZX Spectrum character Hungry Horace as a flipped out sidekick. The company also is listed as dormant so it is unclear if they're really operative and legal owner of said IP. People who have been tweeting about it also have had their Twitter accounts reported by the person launching the copyright strikes, in a combined attempt of protecting IP and shutting down criticism. The connection with RGL might bring down the sales of THEC64 as well, as many people now want nothing to do with it.

 

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23freehorace

Edited October 17, 2019 by carlsson

[Flojomojo]

oh my

 

 

 

 

And to think I considered "Coleco" to be an abused old copyright. 

[carlsson]

The same individual is also making strikes against World of Spectrum, including sending threatening mails to the site admin's girlfriend (unrelated to retro gaming).

 

So yes if this is a significant amount of Philips' original G7000 library, look forward for whatever fun stuff might happen in this part of the community too in the near future.

[+x=usr(1536)]

This might not go as far as one might think, and, strangely enough, it may be in part because of cars.  Going from memory on this, so bear with me; corrections happily accepted.

 

20-odd years ago, lawyers for the then-current owner of MG Cars (which I believe was Rover Group at the time) attempted to stop the MG Owners' Club (UK) from using the MG name, logo, etc. in any way, shape, or form.  A lawyer who happened to be a member of the club stepped up and pointed out that this would effectively make it impossible for the club to exist as nobody could discuss, write about, or even show pictures of their cars to anyone else if they were affiliated with the club.

 

From what I recall, this did end up in front of a judge.  What I don't remember is if a judgement was passed or the parties settled out of court, but the long and the short of it was that the MG Owners' Club was considered to not be involved in IP infringement relating to Rover Cars.  The MGOC case is just one example in this category; there have been others.

 

As this relates to Horace: Subversive may own the Horace IP, but it's already been established in the UK that fair use by individuals is non-infringing - and, as Subversive is a company incorporated in the United Kingdom, they're bound by those laws and judgements.

 

While I don't particularly care for Octav1us Kitten's content, it is ridiculous that she's been hit with this and I do wish her the best for getting things back on track.

 

All of the above is a very long-winded way of saying that Paul Andrews is a complete cock, and if he were to be hit by a bus tomorrow I'd hope that the driver would reverse over him and give it another shot just to be sure.

Edited October 17, 2019 by x=usr(1536)

[carlsson]

Hopefully the community outcry will make them think twice from making similar strikes in the future. I kind of understand taking action if someone is making money on your properties - like in the case of someone selling Horace plush dolls and blocking someone contacting them about it - but attacking fair use and pure archival of obscure material barely anyone has paid attention to for 30++ years should result in enough shockwaves to nullify the benefit of a such attack.

[+x=usr(1536)]

39 minutes ago, carlsson said:

Hopefully the community outcry will make them think twice from making similar strikes in the future. I kind of understand taking action if someone is making money on your properties - like in the case of someone selling Horace plush dolls and blocking someone contacting them about it - but attacking fair use and pure archival of obscure material barely anyone has paid attention to for 30++ years should result in enough shockwaves to nullify the benefit of a such attack.

 

Agreed.

 

One other thing: traditionally, there's also been a major difference between UK and US courts in cases like these - in the UK, it's been necessary to show that there were actual damages resulting from the infringement.  Simply saying, "they used something of ours without our permission," typically wasn't enough to get a punitive award (or, in many cases, even just costs).  The court may demand that the infringing party knock it off, but any costs or damages were typically fairly small if anything.

 

While I will fully-admit that I haven't lived in the UK since 1996 so am not as familiar with the legal aspects today as I might be, from what I've seen on the sidelines that mostly still holds true.  This is where Paul 'Complete Cock' Andrews' actions puzzle me: if he were to bring a court case over one of the IPs that his company holds, he can't demonstrate an actual loss.  He's not in the business of cranking out Horace Picks His Nose cassettes for a system that's been off the market for over a quarter of a century, and has never published or reissued a single title for any of these properties.

 

The phrase that comes to mind here: 'pissing up a rope'.  There is nothing to be gained.

[+chicgamer]

Apparently, the backlash was enough that Octav1us was able to come to an agreement with Paul.

 

https://twitter.com/Octav1usKitten/status/1184905619427463168

 

Hopefully, he (or others) won't be so quick to abuse YouTube's copyright strikes.

 

A lot of what people try to do on YouTube falls under fair use, but most of the creators don't have the means to take companies to court (especially the larger ones).

[+x=usr(1536)]

39 minutes ago, chicgamer said:

Apparently, the backlash was enough that Octav1us was able to come to an agreement with Paul.

 

https://twitter.com/Octav1usKitten/status/1184905619427463168

 

Hopefully, he (or others) won't be so quick to abuse YouTube's copyright strikes.

As much as I understand what you're saying, it's not clear where both sides came to an agreement.  At best, a statement will be released tomorrow:

 

 

39 minutes ago, chicgamer said:

 

A lot of what people try to do on YouTube falls under fair use, but most of the creators don't have the means to take companies to court (especially the larger ones).

 

Sure, but in this case we'll have to wait to see what shakes out.

[carlsson]

As far as I can tell, the agreement has not yet been reached and she has now taken a pause from all social media...

 

Also it is interesting to find out that the IP holder is operating under multiple names, so in case one wants to avoid supporting a party, you need to know all their aliases. Pixel Games Ltd seems to be yet another of the Subvert Ltd outlets, I just found out on Facebook.

[+x=usr(1536)]

Yep, caught that.  My understanding was that the request for removal of the copyright strikes on YouTube had been submitted, but were stuck in the queue to be processed.  She definitely has put everything on hold for the moment, though.

 

As for finding the companies that Paul 'Complete Cock' Andrews is listed as an officer of, I'm happy to be of assistance ?

 

 

(N.B.: Companies' House website seems to be touchy as hell right now.  Be prepared for links to bomb out and a lot of use of the back arrow icon to be made.)

Edited October 20, 2019 by x=usr(1536)
Added company info.

[gyratory]

Hey @PikoInteractive Is this anything to do with you guys?

 

You announced last year you'd bought a job lot of IP from Atari SA and among them was Beam / Melbourne House titles. And you're currently rocking Exploding Fist on your website.

 

Did you sell on or sub license the Horace titles to Paul Andrews or had anything to do with his current ownership?

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

[Hwlngmad]

On 10/17/2019 at 9:32 AM, Flojomojo said:

oh my

 

 

 

 

And to think I considered "Coleco" to be an abused old copyright. 

Damn!  Just damn!

[PikoInteractive]

7 hours ago, gyratory said:

Hey @PikoInteractive Is this anything to do with you guys?

 

You announced last year you'd bought a job lot of IP from Atari SA and among them was Beam / Melbourne House titles. And you're currently rocking Exploding Fist on your website.

 

Did you sell on or sub license the Horace titles to Paul Andrews or had anything to do with his current ownership?

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

Yes we (as many other companies) have acquired lots of IP from Infogrames (Atari SA), Including Beam/Melbourne stuff. However We do not own Horace games.

 

We only own 9 titles from Beam's catalog, which only one resulted in us needing to get other partial rights from other company (ASC for Power Punch II).

 

We did help acquire Subvert Ltd Some IP, but our involvement is just up to there. Every company does their due diligence in terms of the IP, and our involvement is as-is where-is.

 

We have help other companies acquire IP in other instances, after everything is finalized, we are not responsible.

 

It is unfortunate what it is currently happening, but we wish to not be involved in this. And we hope all parties can resolve their differences amicably.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by PikoInteractive

[gyratory]

I completely understand and thanks for your help.

 

 

 

 

[gyratory]

14 hours ago, PikoInteractive said:

Yes we (as many other companies) have acquired lots of IP from Infogrames (Atari SA), Including Beam/Melbourne stuff. However We do not own Horace games.

 

We only own 9 titles from Beam's catalog, which only one resulted in us needing to get other partial rights from other company (ASC for Power Punch II).

 

We did help acquire Subvert Ltd Some IP, but our involvement is just up to there. Every company does their due diligence in terms of the IP, and our involvement is as-is where-is.

 

We have help other companies acquire IP in other instances, after everything is finalized, we are not responsible.

 

It is unfortunate what it is currently happening, but we wish to not be involved in this. And we hope all parties can resolve their differences amicably.

 

 

 

 

 

I hope you don't mind but but I've a few general questions.

 

When you buy up old gane IP what level of documentation do you look for to feel comfortable that you will own it after the purchase?

 

I can imagine it'd be tricky if the IP belonged to a company that gone through a series of acquisitions.

 

If you had the purchase agreement for each company sale it'd be easy to show a chain of ownership but those things are often hard to come by.

 

If those documents aren't available what kind of secondary documentation / testimony would you use to satisfy your due dilligence?

 

Cheers

 

gaz

 

[mr_me]

On 10/17/2019 at 8:58 PM, chicgamer said:

Apparently, the backlash was enough that Octav1us was able to come to an agreement with Paul.

 

https://twitter.com/Octav1usKitten/status/1184905619427463168

 

Hopefully, he (or others) won't be so quick to abuse YouTube's copyright strikes.

 

A lot of what people try to do on YouTube falls under fair use, but most of the creators don't have the means to take companies to court (especially the larger ones).

Under DMCA law you only have to submit a counter notice to the service provider to get your content back up (after a two week delay).  The copyright owner who did the takedown then has to get a court order to keep it down.

 

On 10/17/2019 at 4:41 PM, x=usr(1536) said:

 

Agreed.

 

One other thing: traditionally, there's also been a major difference between UK and US courts in cases like these - in the UK, it's been necessary to show that there were actual damages resulting from the infringement.  Simply saying, "they used something of ours without our permission," typically wasn't enough to get a punitive award (or, in many cases, even just costs).  The court may demand that the infringing party knock it off, but any costs or damages were typically fairly small if anything.

 

While I will fully-admit that I haven't lived in the UK since 1996 so am not as familiar with the legal aspects today as I might be, from what I've seen on the sidelines that mostly still holds true.  This is where Paul 'Complete Cock' Andrews' actions puzzle me: if he were to bring a court case over one of the IPs that his company holds, he can't demonstrate an actual loss.  He's not in the business of cranking out Horace Picks His Nose cassettes for a system that's been off the market for over a quarter of a century, and has never published or reissued a single title for any of these properties.

 

The phrase that comes to mind here: 'pissing up a rope'.  There is nothing to be gained.

I don't think there's punitive damages in US copyright law either.  The gain is to essentially enforce a cease and desist.  If the owner does plan to license the character out, they need to show that they are willing to protect their rights.  Otherwise the license is worthless.

[carlsson]

I still wonder about the G7000 part of the library, if it only are the first 4-5 Videopac cartridges that Infogrames retained the rights for and were able to sell, or if it is pretty much all of the library, plus as noted how this affects the Magnavox Odyssey^2 side of things, if Philips always owned worldwide rights (given that Magnavox after all was a Philips company). I understand if rest of the world are not that interested in the rights to Horace or even Miner Willy, but making broad claims about the rights without having to show proof until there is a court order is a pretty effective way to impose threat to a community, not knowing what is real business and what are poker bluffs.

[Flojomojo]

@carlsson there might be some potential sources of new info in this thread, including the still-active developer who put the emulator in the android app store. 

 

 

[Lost Dragon]

Wow..The Mugsy Series.

 

 

Was that ever even mainstream to start with?

 

I had one of the games on the C64:

 

 

No bloody idea what i was doing ?

 

Penetrator was just yet another Scramble clone..didn't fare that we'll at review 56% in Zzap64,  2/5 Your Commodore. 

 

Music was not bad.

 

But who on earth remembers it amongst the countless Scramble clones from back then?.

 

 

 

 

As for the Drama on Social Media. ..

 

 

When is there NOT drama on these platforms? 

 

People taking sides..mass blocking. ..Troll Accounts. .attention seeking i'm leaving social media for a while as i just can't ...sob..go on anymore (but my donations page is still active).

 

 

It's become little more than a gaggle of people crying (literally ) foul.

 

Considering the current Horace I.P owners past ventures..Errotic Chat bots. ..risqué videos with Emily Bouff. ..claiming sexification of a ZX Spectrum character few outside of this side of the pond are even aware of, is a bit rich. ..but there literally are no innocent parties in what's kicked off...

 

It's just October's Social Media drama. .

 

 

Accounts will be unlocked and some new crisis unfolding next month i am sure and the claims of made by opposing sides will be even more dramatic. 

 

It's ironic that so much drama happens on Social media week in, week out, it's dull as dishwater.

 

 

If your biggest worry is:OMG..My subscriber count has increased by X amount this week alone, how will I find content for 3 videos a week?...

 

Then your doing ok, no really you are.

 

Your not facing a martial breakup mere months into the wedding, serious health issues, loss of full time earnings as your company has unexpectedly annouced it's closure...

 

 

Let em sort it out in private rather than have another round of titles for tat exchanges and now that's what i call sympathy,  volume infinity.

 

 

Agreements between supposedly proffessional adults running various enterprises can be worked out without dragging an army of followers in..or so you'd hope.

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Lost Dragon

[Flojomojo]

Off topic, but I am of the opinion that if someone's livelihood is hurt by changes in YouTube or Twitch monetization or copyright policies, maybe it's time to develop some other skills? Skills that are not tied to the whims of an advertising platform that you don't own?

[mr_me]

The initial cartridges were developed in house by magnavox engineers.  Later Ed Averett left intel to make Odyssey2 games.  Averett negotiated a royalty on sales, he may also have negotiated retaining copyright; don't know.  There were contract developers like Intron AB in Sweden who developed Odyssey2 cartridges for Philips as well as Parker Brothers.  Copyright transfer to the publisher would likely have been specified in their contracts, or not.

 

https://dadgum.com/halcyon/BOOK/AVERETT.HTM

 

http://www.the-nextlevel.com/odyssey2/articles/goranohman/

 

The Horace series on the zx spectrum were developed and sometimes published by Beam aka Melbourne House; they likely retained copyright.  Infogrames bought Beam/Melbourne.  Infogrames/Atari started selling assets when they were going bankrupt a few years ago.  The current owner probably has a copy of the original Beam copyright transfer to Infogrames to prove their ownership.

Edited October 25, 2019 by mr_me

[Lost Dragon]

1 minute ago, Flojomojo said:

Off topic, but I am of the opinion that if someone's livelihood is hurt by changes in YouTube or Twitch monetization or copyright policies, maybe it's time to develop some other skills? Skills that are not tied to the whims of an advertising platform that you don't own?

I don't touch any of these but know from channels i do follow there have been changes made to YT policy. 

 

 

All they have done in each individual case was calmly make an annoucement,  message posted up rather than car crash video..that if your having trouble finding their content...please visit...as it's now being hosted there and they give a polite reason why.