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Atari 2600 as a style


Electrk

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There are so many games using the "retro" styles of NES and SNES games, even if they don't strictly follow the limits of the console they're emulating.  What do you think of Atari 2600 as a style?  Like, it doesn't have to follow the hardware limitations 100%, just looks and feels like an Atari 2600 game, even if it's way more complex than a VCS game could ever be.  There are a lot of games that do this for other styles, why not Atari 2600?  I say this as someone who's interested in graphical styles that people don't traditionally think of using—for instance, I love N64 style graphics and want to make games in that style.

 

Do you think Atari 2600 is a legitimate graphical/audio style?  Do you think it's okay for games in this style to bend the rules a bit, or should they match up with the hardware limits of the system?

 

EDIT: It just occurred to me this might not be the right board for this thread.  Sorry if it's not!

Edited by Electrk
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just was checkin out the vcs reddit and all these people postin like omg check out my swave new vcs i clean up its so perfect look at my pic

 

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and you know thats so nice hes happy god bless the little guy but if youre not playing at least 90% of vcs games past and present with the Sega Genesis 1650, then you are not really playing anything, end of story.  It is necessary to have proper controls to play the games.

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8 hours ago, chewy said:

just was checkin out the vcs reddit and all these people postin like omg check out my swave new vcs i clean up its so perfect look at my pic

 

Post image

 

and you know thats so nice hes happy god bless the little guy but if youre not playing at least 90% of vcs games past and present with the Sega Genesis 1650, then you are not really playing anything, end of story.  It is necessary to have proper controls to play the games.

 

Are you being serious? 

 

I need some kind of joystick for Atari 2600.  If d-pad controllers were the only option left on earth, I wouldn't even bother. 

 

 

 

 

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As an aesthetic, maybe? To me the blockiness of the graphics are just a limitation of the system. Maybe the size of the play field has something to do with the graphics looking the way they do? Also the TIA probably influences this a bit? But I guess they do have a certain look to them. But most systems from that era have a very similar appearance. The odyssey 2, Bally Astrocade, and intellivision look similar to me. I’m pretty sure if you ported an Intellivision game to the 2600 they would look almost identical. Especially if you used some extra ram on the cart, or a melody board.

I was reading last night in the Newbie Atari programming guide by Mr. Davie that it is possible to use interlacing while programming on the 2600. This might cause a different look? But I’m pretty sure that’s what they used to get flicker flee images at activision and more advanced atari games.

 

 

 

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I'm not much of a fan of the aesthetics, although I admit some of these original games are beautiful and some of the homebrews are amazing. It's the gameplay that I love. When I started collecting a little more than a year ago, Berserk was one of the first games I got. Within three weeks or so I had 25k points. Tonight, I slapped it in for about 5 minutes and got nearly 8k. I had a blast as the difficulty ramped up with every completed board. If I played for a couple of hours straight, I'd probably hit the 25k again. These Atari games you can pick up and play for a few minutes, lose, start right over; get into a rhythym and start racking up the score. Many 8-bit and some 16-bit are like that for me, but most of the Atari 2600 games are like that. I've not played too many games from other generations that are as pick-up-and-play. That's what I think of when I think Atari. So yes, Atari has a visual style that some programmers really nail, but its play style is why I've spent about $400 over the past year building a collection.

 

Plus it uses joysticks (or paddles which my kids love--Warlords I'm looking at you). If they are not playing games where swipe with their index fingers, they are playing games with a much more tactile feel. When my kids and I play the NES, we use two advantages. Now don't get me wrong, they like playing LEGO and Skylander games on the 360, but its the Atari they continuously ask to play.

 

Obligatory Rant: So screw Atari SA for f*cking up the Aretardbox. If they took what we already have and built on that, I would have bought it on release. I'm anxiously awaiting a modern day system to hook up to my HD TV that my kids and I (and maybe even mom) can play. I'm sure someone on this board is going to chime in and let me know something is coming in about a year. I wish my Atari 2600 had the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons game from Intellivison. Man I love that game.

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Sure it can be a style.  Whether your average game consumer will pick up on the subtle distinctions between 2600 style and, say, Intellivision style is another question.

 

However, I think designing for a system like the 2600 is less interesting for the system’s distinct stylistic elements than for the minimalist approach it forces you into.  Capturing an idea that is reduced to its bare essentials can be a significant aesthetic goal in of itself.

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On ‎10‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 11:51 PM, JasperAK said:

These Atari games you can pick up and play for a few minutes, lose, start right over; get into a rhythym and start racking up the score. Many 8-bit and some 16-bit are like that for me, but most of the Atari 2600 games are like that. I've not played too many games from other generations that are as pick-up-and-play.

 

Yes, yes, yes.  This is exactly the reason why the vast majority of my gaming time is spent with MAME and Atari 2600.  Not only are the games a lot of fun, but they provide a convenient, tidy, and guilt-free way of fitting video games into a busy adult life dominated by serious responsibilities. 

 

I don't say "guilt-free" to imply that people should feel guilty for playing other kinds of games.  It all comes down to circumstances.  There is just no practical way to accommodate certain types of games in my life right now, or in the foreseeable future for that matter.  If I got all wrapped up in some modern 300-400 hour AAA title or online FPS and started ignoring my daughter to play it because there simply aren't enough hours in the day to fit it in otherwise, that would make me quite the tit.  With quick arcade-style games, all I need is 20-30 spare minutes to get a few quick games in.  And when they're done, they're done.  There's no lingering feeling of leaving something unfinished.  

 

 

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On 10/19/2019 at 3:11 AM, adamchevy said:

I was reading last night in the Newbie Atari programming guide by Mr. Davie that it is possible to use interlacing while programming on the 2600. This might cause a different look? But I’m pretty sure that’s what they used to get flicker flee images at activision and more advanced atari games.


I do not believe there are ANY games for the system that use interlacing. None at all. The ONLY interlacing example I know of is the one posted to the [stella] list many years ago. My memory is not good enough to recall who wrote it. I would lay good money against activistion having used interlacing. It was a technical discussion on [stella] which lead to tests to see if it were actually possible. Which, of course, it is.

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There were also some very very interesting discussions revolving around using teletext, too. Back then I think the conclusion there weren't sufficient cycles to do it. But nowdays given the external CPU assist -- perhaps it is time that we/someone revisited the possibility.  Teletext on a '2600 cart would open up a whole realm of new game possibilities.

 

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19 minutes ago, Gemintronic said:

The 2600 is deeply entrenched in the era where hardware was unique and audio/visual output reflected that.

 

I can usually tell when a "look alike" modern retro game comes up short.  A big hint is when they use too many colors per horizontal line in either the sprites or background.

 

 

 

Forgive me if I'm misreading, but I don't think that's necessarily within the realms of this exercise.  That sounds more like you're describing games that could be playable on actual VCS hardware.

 

The Minotaur Project (which I never heard of before this thread) seems like a great example of what @Electrk meant.  It's a modern game with modern ideas but has the 2600 aesthetic.  Sure, it would be impossible to do on real VCS hardware but has the look-and-feel but that wasn't their goal.  Each sprite looks like something that could pop out of any given 2600 game, be it from title screen or gameplay.  

 

Or are you thinking it should be games that might be 90% playable on real hardware but allow that extra 10% for a little performance-related breathing room?  

 

 

 

 

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@PlaysWithWolves

 

What a style means to me is how clearly it can be identified with the hardware.  The far limits being hardware with upgrades (i.e. DPC, MMC5, extra RAM etc..) and demoscene tricks that don't actually work for full games.

 

I'm not a purist though.  For instance: I'd say Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon does a great job of distilling the NES style.   Its graphics are *just* a little farther than possible but it doesn't scream fake.  It mostly maintains the 8x8 pixel tile shape in objects.  Also, the 4 colors per tile (1 transparency + 3 colors) is mostly followed.

 

 

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My biggest concern with making a 2600 styled game for a modern platform is that the graphics would come off as lazy, even if that's not the intention. Pixel art has a pretty low barrier to entry nowadays; all you need to get started is MS Paint, really. Of course, making GOOD pixel art is a completely different story. Given the large influx of pixel art games in recent years, the art needs to really stand out if it wants to be noticed.

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  • 2 weeks later...
I do not believe there are ANY games for the system that use interlacing. None at all. The ONLY interlacing example I know of is the one posted to the [stella] list many years ago. My memory is not good enough to recall who wrote it. I would lay good money against activistion having used interlacing. It was a technical discussion on [stella] which lead to tests to see if it were actually possible. Which, of course, it is.  

 

  I found a video on YouTube where Tod Frye explains how he created and used interlacing at Atari. It starts at 17 minutes 50 seconds. He describes how he created a way to use 2 kernels at the same time. One that runs on Even Lines and one that runs on odd lines. Tod says it was used for the game football to have both the red and blue teams move independently.

At 24 minutes 8 seconds he describes how ballblazer was interlaced.

 

 

 

 https://youtu.be/UTDUB_GiTKA

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, adamchevy said:

  I found a video on YouTube where Tod Frye explains how he created and used interlacing at Atari. It starts at 17 minutes 50 seconds. He describes how he created a way to use 2 kernels at the same time. One that runs on Even Lines and one that runs on odd lines. Tod says it was used for the game football to have both the red and blue teams move independently.

At 24 minutes 8 seconds he describes how ballblazer was interlaced.

 

 

 

https://youtu.be/UTDUB_GiTKA

 

 

 

 

I'll check that out when I have time - but there is a very real difference between interlacing in software by alternating sprites using two kernels, and actually generating an interlaced TV frame.  The latter requires precise timing to get 1/2 a scanline in the frame so the TV detects the odd/even frame and thus shifts every 2nd frame down 1/2 a scanline. I suspect there is some confusion with what interlacing actually is.  That is, you can interlace sprites, kernels, whatever, but that is NOT an interlaced signal to the TV. The interlaced signal to a TV has specific timing requirements for the writing of VBLANK/whatever.
 

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12 hours ago, adamchevy said:

  I found a video on YouTube where Tod Frye explains how he created and used interlacing at Atari. It starts at 17 minutes 50 seconds. He describes how he created a way to use 2 kernels at the same time. One that runs on Even Lines and one that runs on odd lines. Tod says it was used for the game football to have both the red and blue teams move independently.

At 24 minutes 8 seconds he describes how ballblazer was interlaced.

 

 

 

https://youtu.be/UTDUB_GiTKA

 

 

 


OK, watched that section at 17m closely. That is NOT an interlaced TV frame.

The other part - it is almost certainly NOT an interlaced frame, too - he mentions 150 lines per frame. That's just not close to correct.

I stick with my view that no games are known to use TV interlacing.

 

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OK, watched that section at 17m closely. That is NOT an interlaced TV frame.
The other part - it is almost certainly NOT an interlaced frame, too - he mentions 150 lines per frame. That's just not close to correct.
I stick with my view that no games are known to use TV interlacing.
 



Thanks for having a look at this clip more closely. I appreciate your clarification on this.
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