Got a VIC-20! Recommendations?

[bluejay]

I finally got my first functioning computer, a VIC-20! My TRS-80 Model 100 kinda worked, but its screen was broken. Anyways, what games would you recommend? Do you think the Datasette C2N drive would be necessary? How about the VIC-1541? Should I invest more money for a 1702 monitor or a 1525 printer?

[+cvga]

Congrats! I'd recommend a 1541 and a 1702 monitor. Game-wise, the Atari-soft games are pretty good ports and I really like the Scott Adams adventure series. They are short text adventures that don't take a ton of time to complete. There are lots of other great games also!

[krslam]

There wasn't much software released on disk for the VIC.  Most of it was tape or cartridge, so if you want to stick with original hardware and software, the C2N will be more useful than a 1541.  If you're going to explore writing your own, you'll soon find the tape drive to be intolerably slow so a disk drive could be useful.  As much as I like the 1702, any CRT monitor or TV with composite inputs will work just fine.  You didn't mention a joystick, but I'd strongly recommend NOT searching out any of the Commodore-branded ones as they're all cheaply made. Get a Wico, Epyx 500XJ, Suncom, or any of the other fine 3rd party sticks instead.

 

For games, I always enjoyed Omega Race, Gorf, and most of the Atarisoft titles.  You might consider getting a Behr_Bonz multicart (127 games on one cart).  Not sure if this link is still good:

http://c64os.com/buyersguide/behrbonz

 

Have fun with the VIC!

 

 

 

[Papalapa]

Pi1541 is a must to load software, or SD2IEC if the first is not possible.

 

Pi1541 is an accurate real-time cycle exact 1541 drive emulation (almost 100% software compatible) while SD2IEC is compatible with the Fastloaders (less software compatibility).

 

[bluejay]

7 hours ago, Papalapa said:

Pi1541 is a must to load software, or SD2IEC if the first is not possible.

 

Pi1541 is an accurate real-time cycle exact 1541 drive emulation (almost 100% software compatible) while SD2IEC is compatible with the Fastloaders (less software compatibility).

 

I prefer to use original hardware, thanks.

12 hours ago, krslam said:

You didn't mention a joystick, but I'd strongly recommend NOT searching out any of the Commodore-branded ones as they're all cheaply made. Get a Wico, Epyx 500XJ, Suncom, or any of the other fine 3rd party sticks instead.

 

For games, I always enjoyed Omega Race, Gorf, and most of the Atarisoft titles.  You might consider getting a Behr_Bonz multicart (127 games on one cart).  Not sure if this link is still good:

http://c64os.com/buyersguide/behrbonz

I am planning to use one of my Atari 2600 joysticks, although I was planning on buying a Commodore one if I happen to run into one at a decent price, since I'm one of those people who has to use matching stuff, you know, the ones that refuses to use a 1541 II for a VIC 20?

I'm not big fan of multicarts, as they defeat the whole purpose of collecting the games one by one. I prefer the joy of finding a game one at a time than buying one cart with a gazillion games.

[carlsson]

Ok, you only want original hardware and collect games one by one. That means you'll stick to tape based games and genuine game cartridges. Even then, you'll want a 16K or ideally switchable 32K memory expansion in order to load some of the bigger tape games. As noted, very little original software came out on floppy disk so if you want the full authentic feeling, you can ignore floppy disks completely. While the VIC-20 outputs reasonable composite video, you might even question if you want to use it or stick with an RF modulator, given that computer monitors weren't that common back then. I think the 1701 and subsequent monitors came out in time for the C64.

 

For practical use, the 1525 printer is a dead weight. It probably will cost you more in shipping than what the unit is worth. I would not worry about it unless you found one locally for free or close to it.

[eightbit]

Congrats! The Vic-20 was my first computer and is still my pride and joy. I have one still....and use it often.

 

I would suggest either a Behr-Bonz multicart or a Penultimate cart. The latter will most likely be much more easy to obtain. That and an SD2IEC device and you will be in Vic heaven. Personally nowadays my machine has the Behr-Bonz cart permanently installed providing 127 game carts at the ready. That is more than fine for me. 

[bluejay]

On 10/19/2019 at 5:08 PM, carlsson said:

Ok, you only want original hardware and collect games one by one. That means you'll stick to tape based games and genuine game cartridges. Even then, you'll want a 16K or ideally switchable 32K memory expansion in order to load some of the bigger tape games. As noted, very little original software came out on floppy disk so if you want the full authentic feeling, you can ignore floppy disks completely. While the VIC-20 outputs reasonable composite video, you might even question if you want to use it or stick with an RF modulator, given that computer monitors weren't that common back then. I think the 1701 and subsequent monitors came out in time for the C64.

 

For practical use, the 1525 printer is a dead weight. It probably will cost you more in shipping than what the unit is worth. I would not worry about it unless you found one locally for free or close to it.

Thanks for the info.

I have the rf modulator, but it outputs video as if it was a PAL computer.

But I do wish I had a 1701... That thing looks freakin' amazing!

I found that every single one of Commodore Datasette drives on ebay is listed as untested, therefore there is no guarantee that I won't have to change the belt. If it weren't for that problem, I would buy a c2n right now, but I'm a bit lazy. Do c2n belts melt/rot/loosen often?

[bluejay]

Actually, is there a way to tell between a PAL or NTSC VIC-20, just by looking at hardware? I really think it might be a PAL machine.

[DragonGrafx-16]

1 hour ago, bluejay said:

Actually, is there a way to tell between a PAL or NTSC VIC-20, just by looking at hardware? I really think it might be a PAL machine.

Just plug it into your TV... if it's PAL it will be black and white and the picture would be messed up.

[bluejay]

1 hour ago, DragonGrafx-16 said:

Just plug it into your TV... if it's PAL it will be black and white and the picture would be messed up.

Well, it is.

Is there a chance that there might be something wrong with the modulator?

[DragonGrafx-16]

5 minutes ago, bluejay said:

Well, it is.

Is there a chance that there might be something wrong with the modulator?

I dunno... I don't own a Vic-20... but I did have an HDMI to composite adapter (It actually worked quite well if but it did not have any overscan settings) I tried to use get an emulation PC connected to a CRT TV... it had an NTSC/PAL switch and when I switched it to PAL it would be in B&W with messed up picture.  You could try a PAL to NTSC converter box.

Edited October 21, 2019 by DragonGrafx-16

[bluejay]

More questions:

Is there a way to download vic 20 games online and transfer it to a random music cassette tape and run it on a vic 20?

If so, how?

Also, how do cassette storages work? Does it translate files into sound and write them on a cassette? What will happen if I put a game cassette into a regular cassette player and play it out loud?

[carlsson]

From software, you can basically tell NTSC and PAL apart by PRINT PEEK(60900). It will return 5 for NTSC and 12 for PAL. Any external video converter you add might bring your colours and a stable picture, but software wise it still would be e.g. a PAL unit. Most cartridge games are hardcoded to NTSC settings, some allow you to reposition the screen using cursor keys or joystick.

 

Regarding the C2N, I don't know how often you need to replace the belt but I suppose it could be about time, in particular if it has been stored in a harsh environment. I've had a few over the years but never felt the need to replace the belt.

 

Online I believe you might be able to find TAP files as well as PRG files. The TAP files could be converted to WAV using a program called Audiotap, while the PRG files first need to be converted to TAP through WAV-PRG. Both these programs can be found here: http://wav-prg.sourceforge.net/

 

Once you have your WAV, you can play it and connect a tape recorder to record the sound, a stream of noise consisting of low and high frequencies not entirely unlike modem noises in case you're familiar with those. Try to play it back on a regular cassette player, you might enjoy the noises. There also used to be an interface called X1531 which lets you connect a C2N directly to the PC, but I'm not sure if those still exist.

[bluejay]

16 hours ago, carlsson said:

From software, you can basically tell NTSC and PAL apart by PRINT PEEK(60900). It will return 5 for NTSC and 12 for PAL. Any external video converter you add might bring your colours and a stable picture, but software wise it still would be e.g. a PAL unit. Most cartridge games are hardcoded to NTSC settings, some allow you to reposition the screen using cursor keys or joystick.

 

Regarding the C2N, I don't know how often you need to replace the belt but I suppose it could be about time, in particular if it has been stored in a harsh environment. I've had a few over the years but never felt the need to replace the belt.

 

Online I believe you might be able to find TAP files as well as PRG files. The TAP files could be converted to WAV using a program called Audiotap, while the PRG files first need to be converted to TAP through WAV-PRG. Both these programs can be found here: http://wav-prg.sourceforge.net/

 

Once you have your WAV, you can play it and connect a tape recorder to record the sound, a stream of noise consisting of low and high frequencies not entirely unlike modem noises in case you're familiar with those. Try to play it back on a regular cassette player, you might enjoy the noises. There also used to be an interface called X1531 which lets you connect a C2N directly to the PC, but I'm not sure if those still exist.

I didn't know the VIC-20 was region locked!
Will NTSC c2n/cassette games work on a PAL vic 20?

Edit:I tried and it is NTSC, and I think it's the modulator's fault. The rca jack seems a bit shallow and maybe the cable isn't fully inserted. I'll have to try. I'm using a dvd player's video input as my temporary solution, because the video cable is so short and I have to kneel in front of my tv to use th vic 20 on it.

Edited October 22, 2019 by bluejay

[krslam]

It's not so much region locked, which wasn't really a thing back then, but the system runs at different speeds and outputs different video formats depending on where it was intended to be used.  These differences can make some software not run correctly so generally the only way to know for sure is to try.

 

There's an adjustment knob inside the VIC (inside the metal can on the board) that'll tweak the video signal.  This youtube video shows it.  Depending on your modulator (several models were used), there may be adjustments inside there as well but they are a pain to pry open.  I recommend you get a composite video cable and ditch the modulator entirely.

 

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

@bluejay Helpful tip, so take it in that vein:

 

When dealing with older hardware, throw out your notions of how you believe things to work.  Example: region locking.  I get that you're of an age where the differences between NTSC, PAL, and SECAM no longer come into play (for the most part), and I don't fault you for not knowing about them - but don't be afraid to ask why the machine you just picked up is doing what it does, or how best to approach it.

 

Here's the thing: @carlsson gave some good advice as to how to determine whether you have a PAL or NTSC machine.  My money's on NTSC, but follow what he recommended and report back.  We can go from there.

Edited October 22, 2019 by x=usr(1536)

[eightbit]

The knob (or pot) adjust for the video is necessary. I have had to do this to every Vic I ever owned as it seems it is tweaked for the RF modulator only. Once I stuck composite cables to it the screen would be too dark/strange and the adjustments were necessary. Not hard to do but I would advise using a plastic screwdriver to adjust while the system is on...as to not short anything  I was adventurous and used a metal screwdriver as in that video, but don't slip!

 

That adjustment is not optional in my opinion. It is required (if it has never been done before)if you are using composite cables (which you should be). It's as simple as that video depicts. Just turn the dial slightly until it looks great and then close her up. I did that to my personal Vic a bit over ten years ago and it looks fantastic to this day.

Edited October 22, 2019 by eightbit

[carlsson]

Yeah, there is no "lock" on these systems, and pretty much nothing prior to the NES anyway has locks. All they have are incompatibilities in the video generation as they are tuned for different video modes. In the case of the VIC-20, the visible part of the screen is fully movable across the TV area but for unknown reason the value ranges used to position the screen are completely different on 6560 NTSC and 6561 PAL systems. All well behaved games could read the ROM default values starting at address 60900 and adjust accordingly, but an alarming number of cartridge games think they know best and use their own, hardcoded values for where to place the screen area. It leads to a majority of cartridge games zoomed for NTSC ends up in the upper left corner on PAL, and the very few games hardcoded for PAL ends up in the bottom right corner on NTSC. An external video converter can not fix that, no matter how much money you spend on it.

 

Regarding tape programs, yes in theory there is a small difference. I believe an NTSC VIC-20 will run at nearly exactly 1.00 MHz while a PAL runs at 1.01 or 1.02 MHz. This very small difference in timing can have effects when loading from tape if it was recorded with different timing. Usually I believe it works anyway. On the contrast, the NTSC C64 should also be very close to 1.00 MHz while the PAL equivalent runs at 0.98 MHz or so. Generally I think a "slower" computer (C64) loading programs saved on a "faster" computer (VIC-20) works while vice versa would end up in load errors.

 

Some of the most advanced programs will trace the raster beam and display graphics based on it, not entirely unlike how programmers on the Atari 2600 (and I believe Odyssey^2) chase the beam all the time. Such programs hard tied to raster timing will not work between PAL and NTSC due to the different number of raster lines and number of cycles per line. Modern scene demos are examples of that, as well as a few cartridge games like Bandits and IIRC also Catch the Flag, which both are timed for NTSC so they end up as garbage on PAL. A small amount of cartridge games from Imagic appeared in separate PAL and NTSC versions, more or less rewritten as adjusting timing is not the easiest hack to make, compared to what I wrote above about simply position the screen on the visible area.

Edited October 22, 2019 by carlsson

[+x=usr(1536)]

15 hours ago, bluejay said:

Edit:I tried and it is NTSC, and I think it's the modulator's fault. The rca jack seems a bit shallow and maybe the cable isn't fully inserted. I'll have to try. I'm using a dvd player's video input as my temporary solution, because the video cable is so short and I have to kneel in front of my tv to use th vic 20 on it.

Hang on... I think I missed something in my first reading of the above.

 

Are you connecting the VIC's RF output to the composite video input (typically a yellow RCA jack) on the DVD player?  If so, that won't work; they're completely incompatible.

 

The VIC needs to be connected to the antenna input on a TV, VCR, etc.  That device then needs to be tuned to the appropriate channel (usually 3 or 4) to display the computer.

 

You're probably also going to need an F-type antenna adapter in order to couple the VIC's RF output to whatever you're feeding it into.  That, or either cut off the RF connector on the VIC and replace it with a female F-type connector, or do a composite out mod to it.

[carlsson]

Yeah, the "mod" would consist of cutting off the cable before the RF modulator and solder in two RCA connectors. Or build a composite video cable from scratch in the same manner or buy a ready-made one.

[bluejay]

7 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Hang on... I think I missed something in my first reading of the above.

 

Are you connecting the VIC's RF output to the composite video input (typically a yellow RCA jack) on the DVD player?  If so, that won't work; they're completely incompatible.

 

The VIC needs to be connected to the antenna input on a TV, VCR, etc.  That device then needs to be tuned to the appropriate channel (usually 3 or 4) to display the computer.

 

You're probably also going to need an F-type antenna adapter in order to couple the VIC's RF output to whatever you're feeding it into.  That, or either cut off the RF connector on the VIC and replace it with a female F-type connector, or do a composite out mod to it.

As I own multiple retro video game consoles, I know that you're not supposed to connect it into the video input. I tried it out of curiosity when I first got my 2600, and I do it again from time to time, don't ask me why. I just find it satisfying. I connected the modulator to a switchbox that was also included in the bundle I bought, and it didn't work. I tried connecting it to other switchboxes that I own, including nintendo ones, but none of them worked. I'm using the av cables to connect it to the dvd player. When I tried to connect it to my tv so I could type on my couch, that's when it displayed a black and white, messy, rolling screen.

 

I also have another question. When I was playing with the video cables and touching them with each other, I ended up with a jumbled screen when I connected it back to the dvd player, and when I tried it again, the fuse blew, and I had to replace it. Why did this happen?

Edited October 22, 2019 by bluejay

[bluejay]

21 hours ago, krslam said:

It's not so much region locked, which wasn't really a thing back then, but the system runs at different speeds and outputs different video formats depending on where it was intended to be used.  These differences can make some software not run correctly so generally the only way to know for sure is to try.

 

There's an adjustment knob inside the VIC (inside the metal can on the board) that'll tweak the video signal.  This youtube video shows it.  Depending on your modulator (several models were used), there may be adjustments inside there as well but they are a pain to pry open.  I recommend you get a composite video cable and ditch the modulator entirely.

 

 

Thanks for the info, but as I said, I'm already using composite cables hooked to my dvd player.

[+x=usr(1536)]

49 minutes ago, bluejay said:

As I own multiple retro video game consoles, I know that you're not supposed to connect it into the video input. I tried it out of curiosity when I first got my 2600, and I do it again from time to time, don't ask me why. I just find it satisfying. I connected the modulator to a switchbox that was also included in the bundle I bought, and it didn't work. I tried connecting it to other switchboxes that I own, including nintendo ones, but none of them worked.

 

What channel was the TV tuned to, and did that match what the VIC was set for?

 

Others have mentioned that there is a pot inside the VIC for fine-tuning adjustment.  Yours may need some attention.

 

Quote

I'm using the av cables to connect it to the dvd player. When I tried to connect it to my tv so I could type on my couch, that's when it displayed a black and white, messy, rolling screen.

 

This is difficult to follow. You're using AV cables to connect *what* to the DVD player?  Most DVD players generally have composite outputs, but not inputs.  Not saying that yours doesn't, but it's hard to tell what exactly the connections you're trying to make are.  There're a lot of references to the RF modulator in your posts, which shouldn't even be coming into play if you're using composite.

 

Quote

I also have another question. When I was playing with the video cables and touching them with each other, I ended up with a jumbled screen when I connected it back to the dvd player, and when I tried it again, the fuse blew, and I had to replace it. Why did this happen?

You shorted something out.  When you say, "the fuse blew," which fuse are you referring to?

Edited October 23, 2019 by x=usr(1536)

[bluejay]

7 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

 

What channel was the TV tuned to, and did that match what the VIC was set for?

 

Others have mentioned that there is a pot inside the VIC for fine-tuning adjustment.  Yours may need some attention.

 

 

This is difficult to follow. You're using AV cables to connect *what* to the DVD player?  Most DVD players generally have composite outputs, but not inputs.  Not saying that yours doesn't, but it's hard to tell what exactly the connections you're trying to make are.

 

You shorted something out.  When you say, "the fuse blew," which fuse are you referring to?

I'm gonna try the fine tuning.

My portable dvd player has av inputs, and I'm saying that I'm using it as a temporary solution, until I can connect the vic to my tv or until I get a 1702.

The fuse was between the two black shield thingys that cover the cartridge port and etc.