Jetboot Jack Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 On 10/29/2019 at 8:39 AM, kiwilove said: I fired up the 800XL and gave it a good go. It does look amazing. I do wonder if it's possible to support 2 fire buttons on the Genesis gamepad for this game? Does the coin-op use two fire buttons? Don't know if it'll play better this way - but I think players who have the controller would like to try it out that way. Might need to offer the two ways of configuring it so that it'll suit the player? Harvey One of the little advantages of emulation is button remapping - in my standard config for Atari800 and Altirra I map one of the (B) buttons to up on the stick so I can get to enjoy the many games that use up as Jump with a button input instead - cheating I know, but it works for me! I also map one button to the space bar - makes defender MUCH better! sTeVE 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwilove Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 On 10/30/2019 at 1:51 PM, cgfatari79 said: I had no idea it was possible to make use of the Genesis controllers extra buttons. It would be great to see this implemented for use in Defender - Smart bombs/ Hyperspace and Dropzone - Smart bombs and Cloak. This would reduce the difficulty level to some degree and save atari space bars from being damaged when being smashed down with your foot. Well at least that's how i used to play it. Yes - these games have been modified here https://github.com/ascrnet/TestJoy2B/tree/master/games - and do work with the Genesis joypad. I didn't initially know this was the case until Paul pointed out it was so. Otherwise I would have tested them out sooner. I was never a fan of the Atari 8-bit conversion of Defender - thinking it was far too jerky and crudely done - although the arcade coin-op did not have smooth scrolling in it - and was over the moon when Dropzone appeared. Most players would not know that Archer did program his own conversion of Defender - and showed this around -but could not market/sell it - because of the rights bought by Atari. It would be nice if his conversion did show up one day? But I guess it's probably lost forever. Defender did have it's distinctive sound - and I guess most of this did not end up in the home conversion. Harvey 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgfatari79 Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 Oh great, thanks I will check them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 13 hours ago, kiwilove said: Yes - these games have been modified here https://github.com/ascrnet/TestJoy2B/tree/master/games - and do work with the Genesis joypad. I didn't initially know this was the case until Paul pointed out it was so. Otherwise I would have tested them out sooner. Harvey I never knew so many games had already been modified for two buttons. Thanks for the link. But why are these modified games so obscure it seems few know about them judging by all the questions in different threads about multi-button joysticks and asking for games to be modded for two buttons? I actually made a custom controller for use with Spy Hunter, which I will still use, because I think it's cooler than the Sega pad. But I'll use my Sega pad with all the other games at that link! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailbrake Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 On 10/31/2019 at 10:00 AM, manterola said: Regarding multi button joystick there is a pcb design already done, to build your own multi joy and many games already converted: https://github.com/ascrnet/TestJoy2B/tree/master/games https://atari8bit.net/multifire-3-button-atari-joysticks/ Is moon patrol redux compatible with this? or is multifire compatible with Sega Genesis control? Maybe ascrnet or Mr. Robot can comment. (side note: how can I add members names with a link so they get a notification?) Great thread. I picked up a $7.99 Sega Genesis replica controller and it works perfectly with the latest revision of Moon Patrol. My wife was wondering what I was so happy about, but having multiple buttons when playing a game on my old 130XE is a wonderful thing Looking forward to trying out the other games listed above. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manterola Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 31 minutes ago, Gunstar said: I never knew so many games had already been modified for two buttons. Thanks for the link. But why are these modified games so obscure it seems few know about them judging by all the questions in different threads about multi-button joysticks and asking for games to be modded for two buttons? I actually made a custom controller for use with Spy Hunter, which I will still use, because I think it's cooler than the Sega pad. But I'll use my Sega pad with all the other games at that link! So lets keep posting in that thread about this new addition (moon patrol) to the list of game that support 2 buttons.... So we can improve the visibility of this two (or 3) buttons support. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 When this is final can someone issue a pull request on ascrnets github to include it? It would be nice to get all the multifire games into a single place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ascrnet Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 First of all thanks for the game, I just tried Joy 2b + and it works perfect in sega mode.? regards 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biobern Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 Thanks for the hack! Such a great game now! Played it in the arcades and loved it, but it was too ugly on the Atari 800 so I always ignored it until now. - Backgrounds are marvellous! - Title Screen is incredible!! - Musik: Just wow! - Enemies are better than before, but wouldn't it be better to draw all of them in half width? And also to draw the shoots in half width? Seems like an easy modification to me, but maybe I'm clueless. - Buggy is much better than before, but isn't there any possibility to go away from the quad pixel thing? Driving the buggy from the title screen would be a dream! Bern 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, biobern said: Thanks for the hack! Such a great game now! Played it in the arcades and loved it, but it was too ugly on the Atari 800 so I always ignored it until now. - Backgrounds are marvellous! - Title Screen is incredible!! - Musik: Just wow! - Enemies are better than before, but wouldn't it be better to draw all of them in half width? And also to draw the shoots in half width? Seems like an easy modification to me, but maybe I'm clueless. - Buggy is much better than before, but isn't there any possibility to go away from the quad pixel thing? Driving the buggy from the title screen would be a dream! Bern He's still redoing the graphics within the limits of the original program and how the original programmer used the hardware. The improvement is mostly (he had some additional help with the redux than other hacks before) the difference between whom ever did the original pixel art, and what a much better pixel artist can do within the same limits the original game imposes. What you ask, could be done, and much more, if it was a rewrite/clone/sequel from scratch. With modern development tools and far more understanding from 40 years of programmers discovering what the hardware is capable of, clever programming using multi-plexed P/M's and software sprites, and more memory (most of these were 8k and 16K cartridges originally) to do even more to the game engine, like additional parallax scrolling, DLI's for more color, extended games, etc., so much more is possible. I bet even the big-budget, big (for the time) development team classics that used more powerful computers and main-frames to develop on, Like the Lucasfilm games, for example, could even be enhanced or done better from scratch just with the new PC 8-bit development tools available that are exponentially more powerful than even what the big computers and tools Lucasfilm used back then were capable of as well as the other limitations above. The old school developers were much more limited in every way; restricted memory, far less advanced languages, editors, and ML monitors, and programming tools, deadlines, budgets, lack of 40 years of knowledge gained on what the hardware can do, so many games could be done much better today than even the P/M and background graphic hacks. This would be true for many games on many different computers and consoles today, not just the Atari, if the computers were better utilized too. Edited November 5, 2019 by Gunstar 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+playsoft Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 3 hours ago, biobern said: Thanks for the hack! Such a great game now! Played it in the arcades and loved it, but it was too ugly on the Atari 800 so I always ignored it until now. - Backgrounds are marvellous! - Title Screen is incredible!! - Musik: Just wow! - Enemies are better than before, but wouldn't it be better to draw all of them in half width? And also to draw the shoots in half width? Seems like an easy modification to me, but maybe I'm clueless. - Buggy is much better than before, but isn't there any possibility to go away from the quad pixel thing? Driving the buggy from the title screen would be a dream! Bern Obviously if you made the enemies single width instead of double they'd be harder to hit. Maybe that would be OK or maybe it would make the game too hard. The buggy on the title screen is single width but uses all 4 players. The buggy in the game is double (and quadruple) width using 2 players. If it were changed to use all 4 players that would present problems elsewhere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+playsoft Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Gunstar said: He's still redoing the graphics within the limits of the original program and how the original programmer used the hardware. The improvement is mostly (he had some additional help with the redux than other hacks before) the difference between whom ever did the original pixel art, and what a much better pixel artist can do within the same limits the original game imposes. What you ask, could be done, and much more, if it was a rewrite/clone/sequel from scratch. With modern development tools and far more understanding from 40 years of programmers discovering what the hardware is capable of, clever programming using multi-plexed P/M's and software sprites, and more memory (most of these were 8k and 16K cartridges originally) to do even more to the game engine, like additional parallax scrolling, DLI's for more color, extended games, etc., so much more is possible. I bet even the big-budget, big (for the time) development team classics that used more powerful computers and main-frames to develop on, Like the Lucasfilm games, for example, could even be enhanced or done better from scratch just with the new PC 8-bit development tools available that are exponentially more powerful than even what the big computers and tools Lucasfilm used back then were capable of as well as the other limitations above. The old school developers were much more limited in every way; restricted memory, far less advanced languages, editors, and ML monitors, and programming tools, deadlines, budgets, lack of 40 years of knowledge gained on what the hardware can do, so many games could be done much better today than even the P/M and background graphic hacks. This would be true for many games on many different computers and consoles today, not just the Atari, if the computers were better utilized too. Just to point out that the changes are not within the limits of the original program. For example, the rear mountains, near mountains and city all used to share a single character set, now they each have one of their own. That is a big factor in the improvements, as well as TIX's art. Also note the game already employs a P/M multiplexer for the enemy sprites at the top of the screen. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ascrnet Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Hi playsoft, Is this project already finished or is it still being tested? I ask why I want to add it to my Joy 2B+ game repository with a small change of SEGA text by Joy 2B+ I hope it doesn't bother you. Regards 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biobern Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 6 hours ago, ascrnet said: Hi playsoft, Is this project already finished or is it still being tested? I ask why I want to add it to my Joy 2B+ game repository with a small change of SEGA text by Joy 2B+ I hope it doesn't bother you. Regards Just in case this project is finished for now, why not do a Dropzone hack to make it the better Defender? Isn't that what everybody wants? Bern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+playsoft Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 6 hours ago, ascrnet said: Hi playsoft, Is this project already finished or is it still being tested? I ask why I want to add it to my Joy 2B+ game repository with a small change of SEGA text by Joy 2B+ I hope it doesn't bother you. Regards Things are still being changed! Thanks for asking but feel free to do whatever you like with it, we are already hacking someone else's work after all. If it's a change you would like incorporated before the next release then let me know. Paul 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 (edited) On 11/5/2019 at 9:59 AM, playsoft said: Just to point out that the changes are not within the limits of the original program. For example, the rear mountains, near mountains and city all used to share a single character set, now they each have one of their own. That is a big factor in the improvements, as well as TIX's art. Also note the game already employs a P/M multiplexer for the enemy sprites at the top of the screen. I did have the word "mostly" in there, but these days people seem to over-look the determiner adverbs, but maybe it's still understating the changes you made, and maybe I used the adverb in the wrong spot, sorry. And yes, it has a multiplexer, I was not specific in saying one of the newer multiplexer's that are multi-color and more multiplexed P/M or software sprites on-screen at once. Edited November 8, 2019 by Gunstar typo: most;y instead of mostly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biobern Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 On 11/5/2019 at 4:12 PM, playsoft said: Obviously if you made the enemies single width instead of double they'd be harder to hit. Maybe that would be OK or maybe it would make the game too hard. But it would me more Arcade-like then, right? The enemies are much smaller in the Arcade. And the spheres of the 3-sphere-enemy-ships would finally be round. Bern 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+playsoft Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 7 hours ago, Gunstar said: I did have the word "mostly" in there, but these days people seem to over-look the determiner adverbs, but maybe it's still understating the changes you made, and maybe I used the adverb in the wrong spot, sorry. And yes, it has a multiplexer, I was not specific in saying one of the newer multiplexer's that are multi-color and more multiplexed P/M or software sprites on-screen at once. I just meant to point out something unusual on an old A8 game. I'd never have thought of Moon Patrol as using a P/M multiplexer and it wasn't until I tried to change sprite colours that I noticed. It was setting the P/M colour registers on every scanline in that area and I initially thought it was an attempt to provide multicoloured sprites (like the VCS) that had failed and the old code had been left in. Eventually it dawned on me that it was multiplexing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+playsoft Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 8 minutes ago, biobern said: But it would me more Arcade-like then, right? The enemies are much smaller in the Arcade. And the spheres of the 3-sphere-enemy-ships would finally be round. Bern Yes, it would! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ascrnet Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 20 hours ago, playsoft said: Things are still being changed! Thanks for asking but feel free to do whatever you like with it, we are already hacking someone else's work after all. If it's a change you would like incorporated before the next release then let me know. Paul Hi Paul, perfect, if it's not too much to ask you can add JOY 2B+ support to use 3 buttons. one for shooting forward, one up and the last for jumping. button1 lda STRIG0 bne button2 ;......forward shot button2 lda PADDL0 cmp #$e4 bne button3 ;.......shot up button3 lda PADDL1 cmp #$e4 bne fin_joystick ;......jump end_joystick regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+playsoft Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 8 minutes ago, ascrnet said: Hi Paul, perfect, if it's not too much to ask you can add JOY 2B+ support to use 3 buttons. one for shooting forward, one up and the last for jumping. button1 lda STRIG0 bne button2 ;......forward shot button2 lda PADDL0 cmp #$e4 bne button3 ;.......shot up button3 lda PADDL1 cmp #$e4 bne fin_joystick ;......jump end_joystick regards I will try, although I don't know if I will be able to separate the shots. The game seems to fire up each time you press the trigger but only fires forward every other time which is a little strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biobern Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 4 hours ago, playsoft said: I will try, although I don't know if I will be able to separate the shots. The game seems to fire up each time you press the trigger but only fires forward every other time which is a little strange. But...but.... this is like in the god given ARCADE version! I'd say you should not try to implement something completely new. Arcade is king! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgfatari79 Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 Not true atari 8 bit Bosconian has proven this with the addition of better presentation,. Music, etc. There is always room for improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ascrnet Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 6 hours ago, playsoft said: I will try, although I don't know if I will be able to separate the shots. The game seems to fire up each time you press the trigger but only fires forward every other time which is a little strange. ah ok, I see that it is complicated. Another option that occurred to me is to leave the third button to continue playing. The idea is to use 3 buttons if possible. ? Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+playsoft Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 9 hours ago, biobern said: But...but.... this is like in the god given ARCADE version! I'd say you should not try to implement something completely new. Arcade is king! I think it's OK, JOY 2B+ owners can still play with the Genesis setting for arcade mode controls. The 3 button mode would give them a unique way of playing the game which maybe in some little way encourages use of JOY 2B+ (although I suspect it will make the game a little more difficult). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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