Would it be fair to consider the Atari Jaguar as the successor to the Amiga 1200?

[Leeroy ST]

Hello everyone, new member here long time lurker.

 

So I've been dabbling with programs and homebrew related material for the Amiga and the Jaguar. The Jaguar is an interesting device often compared to the 32X or FX chip and not the PSX and SAT unlike the 3DO. Mainly because of it's mostly untextured games that were flat shaded polygons, a style that can look good if done right.

 

But when you dive a bit deeper, you have a system quite a bit more powerful than the 32X, with 2D capabilities with an even larger gap than that. When you start looking at the library of the Jaguar you notice some cross-over with the Amiga and that a lot of programming tools for the Jaguar are similar in many ways to the tools you would see in later developer dev kits for the Amiga focusing on the AGA/CD architecture that started with the CDTV/Amiga 1200.

 

This puts the Jaguar in a very unique and complicated position. After messing around with dev tools for homebrewing, nothing really produced just dabbling around, I think it may be fair to say that the Atari Jaguar is the successor to the Amiga 1200, like a HYPER version of that system, which would explain parts of its design, coding, and visual style.

 

The Amiga 1200 was the common model used for high-end games in the tail end of the computers life, and commodores life sadly. When you look at the 2D games, especially those that scaled, Jaguar titles like Super Burnout seem like a natural evolution of games such as Lotus 3 among others, and when you look at the coding, while obviously not the same code, similar tricks are used that are coded similarly.

 

When looking at 3D, the Amiga used a very similar set-up to the Jaguar, the difference being that the tech in the Amiga was tailored more toward 2D and its processing was slow. When you look at games like No Second Prize and Hunter, they usually run at best 12fps and as low as 5fps bordering on being a slide show.

 

But the Jaguar uses a similar system for 3D games, but much more refined, with newer technology, and a faster processor. If Hunter or No Second Prize were released on the Jaguar they would have more polygons, some texturing, and likely to run at 30-60fps.

 

2D wise we see ports of Amiga games, the Jaguar versions had better sound, higher frames, more colors, larger sprites, and better animations.

 

I think that if Atari had managed their funding better and aimed to port more Amiga 2D and 3D games, especially 3D, not only would there have been less droughts in the library leading to people running off early (which hurt Ataris chance to capitalize on AVP) but would have saved and brought in more money.

 

More money would mean more consoles manufactured and more cartridges (and later CDs) manufactured. You would have had an open world GTA like game and a 3D racing game 2 years before the Sat/PSX came out and that $500-700 3DO would have been DOA. Instead Atari tried to chase the 3DO, then later the PSX, trying to create some kind of comparable textured based game with it's buggy hardware, with the best result maybe being Iron Solider 2 or World Tour Racing.

 

But the point is, that when you look at the library, not just in the coding, but in the style of Jaguar games 2D and 3D, it's very similar to the Amiga, and it really does feel like that the Jaguar was the natural successor to the Amiga.

 

The only thing that's unfortunate is that the Jaguar didn't treat the console like an Amiga 2, though they did get some ports. 

 

[phoenixdownita]

3 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

.....

 

The only thing that's unfortunate is that the Jaguar didn't treat the console like an Amiga 2, though they did get some ports. 

Say what?

 

Note: this post should definitely be moved onto the Jaguar forum, there's no dearth of people there willing to share their balanced opinions on this subject.

[LinkoVitch]

Short answer "No"

Jaguar = Games console, Amiga = Home computer.

Just because the games have a similar look doesn't make it part of the family.  The Amiga wasn't a games machine, it was used as such sure, but also used as a business and general computer too (look at the 2000 to 4000 range).  Also the Jaguar's hardware is a step backwards in some regards to a 1200, so it doesn't even make sense in that regard.

 

 

[Cyprian]

28 minutes ago, LinkoVitch said:

Short answer "No"

Jaguar = Games console, Amiga = Home computer.

Just because the games have a similar look doesn't make it part of the family.  The Amiga wasn't a games machine, it was used as such sure, but also used as a business and general computer too (look at the 2000 to 4000 range).  Also the Jaguar's hardware is a step backwards in some regards to a 1200, so it doesn't even make sense in that regard.

 

 

Yes and no

1) Jaguar =/= amiga

 

2) amiga was born as a game console and when died it was used more as a console than a real home computer

Edited October 28, 2019 by Cyprian_K

[LinkoVitch]

51 minutes ago, Cyprian_K said:

Yes and no

1) Jaguar =/= amiga

 

2) amiga was born as a game console and when died it was used more as a console than a real home computer

Disagree on point 2..

Amiga was born as a home computer, it was developed and used for video editing IIRC (hence its use for titles and stuff in the era for TV and film).  It was actually presented to Atari before Commodore but Atari already had the ST in the pipeline and turned it down.  It's architecture that allowed it to work well for Video also meant it had some better in roads for games.

 

Other than actual games consoles I don't think ANY manufacturer sets out to build a "computer" as a games console, they build a machine and then get it in as many markets as they can to make money, obviously the Amiga was excellent for games so a lot were made for it and that would have no doubt lead to more advertising pushing it as a computer for use at home and playing games.

 

There is a whole branch of machines Commodore built in the Amiga line that were targeted at business, much like the MegaST and TT ranges from Atari were not aimed at the home market.

 

You can get games for the PC back in the day, doesn't make the PC a Games console.

[mr_me]

If it has hardware sprites, it was designed to be a games machine.  Amigas, Atari 800, Commodore 64, MSX all had hardware Sprites.  The Atari ST did not.

 

The engineers wanted Amiga to be a console, the executives wanted a computer.  In 1985 video games was a dirty word.

Edited October 28, 2019 by mr_me

[Cyprian]

3 hours ago, LinkoVitch said:

Disagree on point 2..

Amiga was born as a home computer, it was developed and used for video editing IIRC (hence its use for titles and stuff in the era for TV and film).  It was actually presented to Atari before Commodore but Atari already had the ST in the pipeline and turned it down.  It's architecture that allowed it to work well for Video also meant it had some better in roads for games. 

 

Other than actual games consoles I don't think ANY manufacturer sets out to build a "computer" as a games console, they build a machine and then get it in as many markets as they can to make money, obviously the Amiga was excellent for games so a lot were made for it and that would have no doubt lead to more advertising pushing it as a computer for use at home and playing games. 

  

There is a whole branch of machines Commodore built in the Amiga line that were targeted at business, much like the MegaST and TT ranges from Atari were not aimed at the home market. 

  

You can get games for the PC back in the day, doesn't make the PC a Games console. 

"Amiga was born as a home computer" "it was developed and used for video editing"

both statement aren't correct.

Let me quote Jay Miner from the wiki: "There, they started to create a new Motorola 68000-based games console, codenamed Lorraine that could be upgraded to a computer"

"Born as a console": https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2007/08/a-history-of-the-amiga-part-2/

"Jay  had some idea's about designing a games console that could be upgraded to become a real computer": http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/aed/chap4.htm

 

"It was actually presented to Atari before Commodore but Atari already had the ST in the pipeline and turned it down"

that's a huge subject. I would avoid stealing this topic. Some Lorraine concepts (there were no any working model yet) were presented to Atari Inc. before its bankruptcy. They singed a famous contract.

ST called RBP (standing for “Rock Bottom Price” ) was before Tramel Technology, Ltdchanged into Atari Corp.

The same time, different companies

And finally, when Atari Corp. bought Atari Inc., they didn't know about any agreements between Atari Inc and Hi-Toro team.

 

Amiga mostly was used as a free piracy-based console.

 

 

[+save2600]

Conceived as a console, but born a computer.  

[Ayreon]

and died as a console. 

The circle of Amiga life ?

Edited October 28, 2019 by Ayreon
Typo or maybe lack of spelling skills. Who knows?

[MrMaddog]

No...

 

The Jaguar has more in common with the Atari Falcon computer due to both having the DSP chip for sound, 68K processor and a dedicated graphics chip.

 

As for the Tramiels making it cheap like the Pre-Amiga Commodores, well...