Does Druid do the best job of pushing the 800/XE graphics to be comparable to other 8-bit machines?

[Mclaneinc]

1 minute ago, Lost Dragon said:

Living Daylights was the other game i wanted to ask them about.

 

The infamous Atari User Magazine claim the review copy they were sent had a proper title screen and extra level not found in the retail version.

 

Ahhh for an Atari 8 Bit GTW like Frank Gasking does with the C64.

 

 

Spoken with some of the Kremin guys regarding their Sega work, nothing but helpful and a pleasure to speak with.

 

 

Sadly it wasn't sent to me, probably Chris Payne making crap up.....

[Lost Dragon]

1 minute ago, Mclaneinc said:

Sadly it wasn't sent to me, probably Chris Payne making crap up.....

? I sadly became all too aware of just how commonplace that was in UK Games Magazines after chasing J.Croudy up over The Games Machines Claims he was converting Druid II to the A8.

 

He had a switched to the ST at this point even though he disliked the hardware. 

[emkay]

30 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

Yes, technicalities are not taken into consideration or a factor, that's my point. Because I didn't read any specific concerns about technicalities in programming and hardware in his initial post, only how good the graphics looked and fluid animation. Nothing directly about scrolling or how many sprites are on-screen at once, only the lack of detail/color and good animation in some games and not in others. His examples of Green Beret and Druid are a hell of a lot farther apart than Tagalon and Druid! I don't see anyone else responding to him with posts addressing what you think you read into as his concerns.

And now it's you eating the sour lemon ?

Are you even slightly aware that EVERY software is a technical consideration and factor?

That Tagalon and Druid look to you less apart is only to explain by the fact that you don't know what's behind it, and that's why we get useless discussions on and on.

Actually, DRUID looks much better than Tagalon AND has more moving objects on the screen. That thing was so damn impressive back then. I hoped many more games would follow that ... possibly topping it ...

The count of (freely) moving objects (over a scrolling screen)  that can be used for the game interaction is the main part of any discussion of what the Atari can do or not.  

Tagalon actually looks like done by a "not that"  experienced programmer .

Druid is a masterpiece of that time, as the balance of hardware usage was chosen cleverly.

 

 

 

 

 

[Gunstar]

18 minutes ago, emkay said:

And now it's you eating the sour lemon ?

Are you even slightly aware that EVERY software is a technical consideration and factor?

That Tagalon and Druid look to you less apart is only to explain by the fact that you don't know what's behind it, and that's why we get useless discussions on and on.

Actually, DRUID looks much better than Tagalon AND has more moving objects on the screen. That thing was so damn impressive back then. I hoped many more games would follow that ... possibly topping it ...

The count of (freely) moving objects (over a scrolling screen)  that can be used for the game interaction is the main part of any discussion of what the Atari can do or not.  

Tagalon actually looks like done by a "not that"  experienced programmer .

Druid is a masterpiece of that time, as the balance of hardware usage was chosen cleverly.

 

 

 

 

 

I see there is no point. Congratulations, you've made my ignore list.

[Mclaneinc]

He gets on everybodys eventually...

[emkay]

58 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

I see there is no point. Congratulations, you've made my ignore list.

 

See ? That IS actually the point. The point of every thread gets killed by their own flaw, not to see the point.

Unbelievable.

Unbelievable?

No, this seems to be a part of the curse over Atari

 

Someone asks about technical information and gets everything except the technical information.

And, if one gives the technical information they don't see the point, and ignore ...

 

 

[adam1977]

You kill most of the threads that you get involved in because of your horrendous attitude towards your fellow forum members, there is no curse, only YOU 

[emkay]

On ‎10‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 12:52 AM, Leeroy ST said:

 

However with Druid, it seems too look like something you would see in later 8-bit adventure games, maybe even Zelda-like. What's interesting is that similar games like Gauntlet and others still have the same issue where the sprites and animated objects/foreground is simplified but the backgrounds would look find on other 8-bit systems.

 

 

 

 

Do you feel your question has got the answer?

You should keep in Mind that the Atari is based on 1970's Hardware ans never has been changed.

 

The creators used the technical achievement of the 2600 , changed it , enhanced it, took some "useless" parts off, and built their computer line.

In the late 70s the Atari 800 was far ahead of it's time.

Able to show 3D games like "Starraiders", and able to show Arcade games and to make them playable "original" .

Two games that kept the "arcade playability" have been Moon Patrol , and Gyruss.

Depending on the "Home TV" standard NTSC they decided to use that low resolution Raster type Graphics.

The Player Missile Graphics on the Atari was build for games like Pong , and got separated color registers to have more colors on the screen.

Doing Games , as started in about 1985 , the Atari wasn't built for. And Atari never changed the Hardware.

So in the years that passed by, the "absolutely outstanding great" Computer for Home Use, got smaller and smaller.

In 1985 it had a par with other 8 Bit computers. A lot of games have been better on the Atari than on other 8 bits.

Particular "Rescue on Fractalus", or Ballblazer kicked all other versions.

All games where the Atari had the advantage belonged to low detail graphics "ego view" perspective game. Be it 1st or 3rd person, the Atari ran a lot smoother than particular the C64.

But, the PMg is a real flaw when it comes to the needed details in games.

If you want Details, you have to build software solutions. Those software solutions depend heavily on the CPU and the graphics mode that is used.

You know about "Cycle stealing" ?

The graphics chip "ANTIC" steals CPU "power" by blocking it while reading from the RAM.

Using the graphics mode as in "Green Beret" steals that much CPU cycles that it slightly runs faster than a C64.

The 2nd problem is that the PM Graphics only run for free (except DMA)  , if you use single colored Player and Missiles and move them in the x position. Moving the Y position take a full row of "LDA , STA" for every single line , a player is used vertically, to change it.

 

If the moving elements aka "Sprites" weren't to big, there is a nice compromise possible.

Also, if you use scrolling with 40 bytes , 48 Bytes have to be read every scanline. This is a lot.

If you use 32 bytes without scrolling, 32 Bytes have to be read every scanline. Which is giving a lot more CPU "power" to handle the game.

 

There are a lot of "tricks" possible, to speed up things, but they weren't useful for all games.

 

In Druid, a lot CPU "power" is saved by using the black "blank" lines that don't force ANTIC to read the RAM and to stop the CPU.

 

It's this complexity, that is to much for "them Jesters" . That's why they always distort from any serious discussion.

 

Really, the coder of DRUID has been aware of all that flaws, and did "more" than it is , out of it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gunstar]

I just had to see the final reply from Emkay after @adam1977 's reply.  @emkay the point I was making that I SEE NO POINT too is continuing to respond to you or acknowledge your existence anymore, you @#%$&@*%^! So this is the last.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Gunstar

[emkay]

20 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

I just had to see the final reply from Emkay after @adam1977 's reply.  @emkay the POINT I SEE that is pointless is continuing to respond to you or acknowledge your existence anymore, you @#%$&@*%^! So this is the last.

Leeroy ST

 

 

See, the fun ? The less they contribute, the more their activity gets weird. 

I'd bet, they don't even see the point of your question. 

 

 

Actually, I'd give Gunstar the hint to read some books, as he has done some interesting projects, using Rastaconverter. Some of them seem to have good intentions, but as we say in German "Gut gemeint ist das Gegenteil von gut gemacht" , it is up to them to put themselves ahead. And another German phrase is " Selbsterkenntnis ist der erste Schritt zu Besserung". But that is the hardest part

Edited October 29, 2019 by emkay

[emkay]

You know the crap part of that all ?

The Atari can show more than 20 color per scanline with no CPU usage. 

 

It's not used for games till today, because you cannot resemble a C64 game with it. 

 

How would anyone name that decision by Atari Coders ?

[thank you]

5 hours ago, emkay said:

No, this seems to be a part of the curse over Atari

you might not mean 'par for the course', but either way I'm going to start using 'part of the curse' instead.

 

I had never seen Druid, so that's two reasons I'm glad I clicked on this thread I guess.

[R0ger]

Druid brings interesting issue. Character graphics have the advantage of 5th color. Yet when you are using software sprites (as Druid does for enemies), there will be collisions, unless you design the game around it. Druid proudly ignores the issue and brings typical Spectrum color clashes to Atari. It's interesting like in most games people will rather not use the 5th color at all. Any ideas about other games having this problem, or using 5th color effectively ?

 

Edit: Seems Tagalon is using it very nicely. Since it has player and single enemy from PMG, he can do whatever he wants in the field. 5th color is blue, mostly used for items. The game is actually super simple, I hear it's not even in assembler but forth or something like that. And you can see that redrawing the map is slow, for example when you pick an item. But the whole game is designed with the limitations in mind. It uses what Atari can do easily, and not a bit more. That, with subtle use of PAL blending, make it more valuable for me than Druid.

 

Another quite advanced game is IMHO International Karate.

Edited October 30, 2019 by R0ger

[emkay]

Druid brings that "easy touch" of something is going on by the used moving objects. If you play it, you won't really recognize any hardware limits interfering the gameplay. 

Seems there is really no direct comparable second game on the Atari. 

 

 

 

[Mclaneinc]

9 minutes ago, emkay said:

Druid brings that "easy touch" of something is going on by the used moving objects. If you play it, you won't really recognize any hardware limits interfering the gameplay. 

Seems there is really no direct comparable second game on the Atari. 

 

 

 

?????   back to ignore....

[emkay]

5 minutes ago, Mclaneinc said:

?????   back to ignore....

Our best Guy. 

Really interesting how many people he provoked till they lost their temper. 

Joining any thread without having something to contribute. Knowing enough about Atari to be accepted by people, knows too less to talk in the Round, but always there to give the peak to the punch in a discussion.

 

clever, clever

[Lost Dragon]

1 hour ago, emkay said:

Druid brings that "easy touch" of something is going on by the used moving objects. If you play it, you won't really recognize any hardware limits interfering the gameplay. 

Seems there is really no direct comparable second game on the Atari. 

 

 

 

By no comparable second game on the Atari do you mean a sequel?  because if so that was explained earlier, coder had moved onto the ST.

 

Or..do you mean a later era title that could receive a similar comparison? 

[emkay]

25 minutes ago, Lost Dragon said:

Or..do you mean a later era title that could receive a similar comparison? 

That's it.  

[+Adam+]

18 hours ago, R0ger said:

Druid brings interesting issue. Character graphics have the advantage of 5th color. Yet when you are using software sprites (as Druid does for enemies), there will be collisions, unless you design the game around it. Druid proudly ignores the issue and brings typical Spectrum color clashes to Atari. It's interesting like in most games people will rather not use the 5th color at all. Any ideas about other games having this problem, or using 5th color effectively ?

You may find colour clash on Atari 8-bit also in Black Lamp (look closely what happens when two enemies meet) and Time Pilot (airplanes vs clouds).

What do you mean by a game "using 5th color effectively"? Any game with 5th colour or a game with software sprites using that colour?

[R0ger]

1 hour ago, +Adam+ said:

You may find colour clash on Atari 8-bit also in Black Lamp (look closely what happens when two enemies meet) and Time Pilot (airplanes vs clouds).

What do you mean by a game "using 5th color effectively"? Any game with 5th colour or a game with software sprites using that colour?

I mean game which uses 5th color of character mode. I know some which use character mode, but no 5th color, for unknown reasons. If it also uses software sprites, even better !

[+Adam+]

@R0ger I would say: Robbo, Plastron, Flowers Mania, Laura, Ridiculous Reality (just a few examples).

Edited October 30, 2019 by +Adam+

[R0ger]

48 minutes ago, +Adam+ said:

@R0ger I would say: Robbo, Plastron, Flowers Mania, Laura, Ridiculous Reality (just a few examples).

Thanks for tips ! I didn't know Plastron, and I had to look with new set of eyes on the others.

[+Adam+]

@R0ger: Plastron is very good graphically.

 

Regarding "Ridiculous Reality" - see this screenshot from the game's ending: I used the same characters for the pattern on the left part and on the right part, the 5th colour makes the difference:

 

[Irgendwer]

11 hours ago, R0ger said:

I mean game which uses 5th color of character mode. I know some which use character mode, but no 5th color, for unknown reasons. If it also uses software sprites, even better !

Bristles (if you don't mean scrolling titles only):

:

 

The 5th color is the paint and the small buckets are soft sprites (in higher skill levels very good to see as they "carry their mask" with them).

In general a very strong title: game play, presentation, graphics, music - all above average.

 

[Tickled_Pink]

As someone pointed out, there are many variables. Another is that quite often, games that came out first on the Atari are better than the conversions that came after them. That was often the case, no matter what platform it came out on or that machine's capabilities. For example, IMO the best version of Elite was still the original on the BBC Micro. The Spectrum version was arguably one of the better ones. For me, the ST version was a let down and yet that was a much more capable machine.

When someone is converting a game, something tends to slip. It's rare for a conversion to be better or even as good as the original. For example, one of the gameplay elements of the original BBC Micro Elite was its difficulty. That was lost by the time the ST version came out. You often found yourself in a position where you could open fire on enemy ships long before you got into range of their weapons, which slanted the game pretty far in your favour.

Often, games were handed over to completely different development teams or development houses to convert. There was also a bit of a push to improve things if the original was launched on an inferior machine, but often that actually led to an inferior game. Some of the guys on AA have done what game developers should arguably have done BITD - while nobody wants to have Sinclair Spectrum-like graphics on their Atari, a direct port using the original graphics/logic/code often makes the most sense. And, TBH, we'd have probably put up with it just to have games to play.