1541 Questions ???

[DistantStar001]

I recently got a 1541 floppy drive (untested) off of eBay.  I don't have a proper cable for it yet, so I soldered some penny nails to some wires and connected it to one of my c64s (I don't think I'm supposed to cross any wires).  As soon as I can get some 6 pin Din connectors I'll make a proper cable.  

When powered on the drive spins up for a few seconds, and does so on power off as well.  Everything I've seen so far says that's normal.  So...

I inserted an Apple II (soft) formatted floppy (since that's all I had) and typed in the command [OPEN 1,8,15, "N:TESTDISK1,1A":CLOSE 1] to format it as a commodore.  The drive responded, the red light's flashing, but it's been almost 20 minutes now and the light's still flashing.  I know Commodores' take a while to format, but this seems a bit too long.  Any suggestions?

[Nukey Shay]

Flashing light = error.

BTW formatting a disk should normally take only a couple of minutes.  You'd hear the drive head initially knockety-knock as it resets to the first track, then the stepper motor every couple of seconds as it proceeds to other tracks.

[DistantStar001]

8 hours ago, Nukey Shay said:

Flashing light = error.

BTW formatting a disk should normally take only a couple of minutes.  You'd hear the drive head initially knockety-knock as it resets to the first track, then the stepper motor every couple of seconds as it proceeds to other tracks.

I figured as much, especially since the drive never sent a message saying that the format was complete.  The question is what's causing the fault?  

Since the drive starts normally, resets normally when a connected computer powers on, and responds to commands from said computer, I'm hoping that the problem isn't with the motherboard, but rather a mechanical issue with the drive itself.  It was shipped in an over-sized box with no packing material after all.  So I'm pretty sure that it got knocked around a bit on it's way to me.  I did have to re-align the elect mechanism after it arrived.

I've hooked it to my VIC-20 now, since 1, I figured it was a good idea to test it with a different computer, and 2, the power cord for my c64 seems to have cut out on the 9v.  I have another somewhere, I just have to find it.  In any case, when I send a command I hear the drive reset to track 0 (it makes a familiar knocking noise to my Apple Disk II drives), but I don't think I'm hearing the stepper motor after that.  However, it is still spinning, and of course the red light is flashing.  

I have also tried loading a file directory [LOAD"$",8] (I'm putting the commands in case I typed them wrong and that's part of my problem).  Again, the drive responded, reset to track 0, I heard the read head, and the drive returned "SEARCHING FOR $", "?FILE NOT FOUND" and "ERROR".  This was to be expected since the disk in the drive is either not formatted properly or still formatted for an Apple II.  What is weird is that the drive light still blinks after sending its response, and I can still hear the disk spinning in the drive.  This happened with the c64 as well as the VIC.  However, when I retyped the load command on the c64 the drive responded again, even though the red light was still blinking.  With the VIC-20, on the other hand, the drive doesn't physically respond to the second load command, but returns the same messages.  I also tried formatting from the VIC.  I didn't think it would make difference (and it didn't), but I wanted to see if the VIC could get a second response from a load command after.  The drive did respond to the load command after the format, but did not respond to a second load after that, beyond the error messages sent to my VIC.

Edited November 10, 2019 by DistantStar001
Additional information.

[+OLD CS1]

You can try "N0:" instead of just "N:". Weird, but I have seen that happen before.  In any case, if the drive runs for a second after the command then stops with the flashing, it means it found an error on the disk during the format.  You can query the disk for the error with the program:

 

10 OPEN1,8,15:INPUT#1,E,E$,T,S:?E,E$,T,S:CLOSE1

 

It has been a long time since I did this without a DOS wedge, but I believe this needs to be a program as INPUT and INPUT# are invalid in immediate mode.

 

E is the error number, E$ is the error string, and T and S are the track and sector the error occurred.  There is a chance the disk is bad or bad enough the 1541 cannot use it.  It could also mean a dirty head.  Worst case, there is something else deeply wrong with the drive and it will need advanced troubleshooting.

[+OLD CS1]

9 hours ago, DistantStar001 said:

What is weird is that the drive light still blinks after sending its response, and I can still hear the disk spinning in the drive.

This is normal.  The "?FILE NOT FOUND" error is generic, and the drive is holding the DOS error in the error queue which you can read with the program I gave above.  I believe the return will be "20,READ ERROR,18,0" or "21,READ ERROR,18,0" (not certain as I do not have CBM DOS error codes in front of me.)  As for the disk spinning, the drive spins for several seconds after each disk access.

[+OLD CS1]

You know, I just thought of something.  AppleDOS uses GCR but a different format than CBM DOS.  I have never worked with this scenario, so I wonder if the issue the drive is detecting bad GCR formatting on the disk.  Have you tried a different disk, one that is not formatted for Apple, or better yet a blank?

[DistantStar001]

I figured it out.  And it was possibly the absolute dumbest thing ever.  The drive head was plugged into the motherboard backwards (side note, I can't guarantee that it wasn't me).

 

It just formatted a disk in about one and a half minutes.  

 

Thanks for everyone's help!  I'm still laughing at myself.

 

Now for the big question.  How do I get software from my MacBook on to a floppy?

Edited November 11, 2019 by DistantStar001
Thanks

[carlsson]

From a Macbook? I'm afraid you'll need some extra hardware in either end. You might be interested in an xu1541 cable or perhaps some SD based device like the (to some people) infamous SD2IEC devices, a Pi1541 or a far more expensive Ultimate-II+, depending on how much you want to invest. If the Macbook somehow has a parallel port you might be able to tinker with a homemade CBM-link cable too though I wouldn't keep my hopes high that it will work.

[+sm3]

Before I got the TurboChameleon 64 or 1541 Ultimate I used one of these:

 

http://store.go4retro.com/zoomfloppy/

 

Used the command line tools to copy d64 disks to real floppies with it.

[carlsson]

I forgot that ZoomFloppy is USB based and apparently is supported by OSX. That would make it a good option.

[DistantStar001]

4 hours ago, carlsson said:

You might be interested in an xu1541 cable ...

I've heard of these, however, I can't find anyone who sells them.  I know I could build one, but I don't have the equipment to program the micro-controler.  

[carlsson]

Check eBay, there are both xu1541 and xum1541 cables for sale right now, though no US sellers. Or get the ZoomFloppy as suggested above, it is a tried solution from a reputable seller who also is part of this forum.

[DistantStar001]

1 hour ago, carlsson said:

Check eBay, there are both xu1541 and xum1541 cables for sale right now, though no US sellers. Or get the ZoomFloppy as suggested above, it is a tried solution from a reputable seller who also is part of this forum.

It seems like the zoom floppy is the more expensive rought (though not by much).  Is there any advantage to one over the other?

[carlsson]

The ZoomFloppy can be configured at purchase with an additional IEEE-488 interface if you ever would come across the PET style drives. Not sure if there is some additional functional difference. The xu1541 tends to be smaller.

[+OLD CS1]

While I am glad you figured it out and it was something simple, I am a little disappointed it was not as esoteric as I was thinking

[cbmeeks]

I own the ZoomFloppy, a SD2IEC and the Ultimate II+.  The Ultimate II+ was a splurge for me that I put off for years.  Took a few months to arrive (they are built on demand) and now that I have it, I can't help but feel like I'm cheating a little.  I guess I'm just an old fan of that ginormous 1541.

 

Anyway, the ZoomFloppy is awesome if you want to connect a real vintage drive to your modern PC and copy data that way.  The SD2IEC is probably your most practical route if you don't want to spend a lot of money.  However, one annoying part for me and all of these SD/FPGA solutions is that when you get a thousand games in one place, it becomes frustrating navigating around and loading stuff.  I guess I just like the feel of inserting the actual disk in the drive.  But that's just me.

 

Of course, the Ultimate II+ is amazing.  Although, expensive.

[eightbit]

I'll second the Ultimate II+. If you want the best experience loading software and doing stuff on the C64 in a modern way there is nothing better. The SD2IEC is a good option, but if you want any kind of enjoyment out of it you are going to want to pair it up with a Fastload cartridge of some type. Its just too damn slow without one. You can get a nice SD2IEC unit for around $50, then add a fastload cart for around $25. Then an SD card for about $10, You are at $85 already minus shipping. The Ultimate II+ is $150. I say if you have the extra $60 or so then just so that.