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DSHD Floppy Compatibility


bluejay

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I found a few dozen 5.25 inch floppies my uncle used to use in the early 90s, and I have no idea what computer he used it on, but the floppy box says that it's IBM formatted, and is compatible with the IBM PC AT, Compaq 386, and most other DSHD drives. Will these floppies work on any PC AT compatible computers? Some have, according to the labels, games, word processors, etc. Will these applications work on any PC AT compatibles?

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Yeah, those are ready for something like an LS120 drive (in a modern system, attached to a SATA->IDE bridge), or for use with a retro 90s or older system.

Wait, you said 5.25.  You need a 90s or older retro computer for that, or you need a special controller.

 

Depending on their age, the media may or may not be in a serviceable condition. Floppy media was always notoriously unreliable.

Edited by wierd_w
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Most likely MSDOS based programs.  They're 1.2 mb floppies so probably programs for a later PC AT and not the 360K PC/XT drives.  You also won't be able to format and use them in an older DSDD or SSDD drive...at least not something like a Tandon used in older PCs.  I also doubt they'd get along with Atari and Commodore drives either.  They will format, but you'll get tons of sector errors when you try to read them.

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45 minutes ago, wierd_w said:

I am thinking either a teac or NEC drive.  Those were quality name-brand models back in the day.

 

In either case, to use it on a modern PC he will need a special adapter.  The one I linked earlier can do raw sector MFM reads to disk images, meaning it can copy even copy protected diskettes with "special" sectors.

 

You're linking to 1.2 mb floppy drives, so yes they'll work with those drives.  They're not going to work with 180K or 360K (SSDD or DSDD) drives due to the different heads and magnetic media.

He mentioned AT computers and compatibles; most systems starting from the AT had 1.2 mb drives, so those disks would work fine if that's what he has.

And fwiw, I've found TEAC drives to be the furthest thing from quality.  Tandon set the bar back in the day and the pair I put in my Model III 35 years ago are still being used today.  I was stung twice by TEACs that failed just outside of warranty...and this was back when a bare drive was $200+ hundred dollars.

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I never really had problems with teac...  milage really does vary I guess...

 

regardless, yes those are both 1.2mb drives.  they should be fit for purpose.  They both need a retrobright treatment, but thats just cosmetic.  He will still need the special controller to use them in a modern system though. No intel foppy controllers in anything modern.

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To be honest, quite a few of the later Athlon XP and early Pentium 4 generation boards still had BIOS support for a 5.25" drive, at least 1.2 MB variety but sometimes also 360K so you don't really need a 90's PC, something from the beginning of the 2000's will support it too. I think it was with Athlon 64 and contemporary they dropped legacy support.

 

Operating system is another matter. DOS obviously works, so does Linux. You will be able to read and write disks of any capacity in Windows 98. Anything newer like XP only supports 1.2 MB and to add insult to injury, I have a memory that XP can only read, not write disks. Or at least it can't format disks any longer.

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17 hours ago, wierd_w said:

 

Wait, you said 5.25.  You need a 90s or older retro computer for that.

Exactly. I wanted a Compaq Portable 1 or a 286, but I'm going to get another machine if I can make use of these disks. Is there an IBM PC AT compatible that doesn't cost more than $250?

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8 hours ago, bluejay said:

Exactly. I wanted a Compaq Portable 1 or a 286, but I'm going to get another machine if I can make use of these disks. Is there an IBM PC AT compatible that doesn't cost more than $250?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Compaq-DeskPro-EP-Pentium-II-300MHz-160MB-RAM-3-2GB-HDD-Windows-95-OSR2/372821741782?_trkparms=aid%3D888008%26algo%3DDISC.CARDS%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131227121020%26meid%3D7bf51cac3c99423aa52b505d947b32a9%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D193213718024%26itm%3D372821741782%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982

 

130$, including shipping.  Includes adaptec scsi card and travan tape drive, and an ethernet card (So you can copy those floppies to images, and get them out easily). Has ISA slots, so getting and using a real creative labs sound blaster is an option. Looks like a good retro game system to me.

Clearly has a floppy controller (1.44mb floppy in the front, also unpopulated 5.25" bay if you take out the tape drive. If you get one of the disk drives I mentioned, you are still under your spending cap.)

 

 

Other than pure nostalgia, there is no reason to get a 386 or lower class system to play those.  If you are concerned about the games playing too fast, get Moslo, or something similar.  That machine is old enough to run pure DOS, and do it reliably.  (It's a win95 era system.) 

Edited by wierd_w
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Usually late 486 or Pentium 1 is the sweet spot for being modern enough to find affordable hardware (PCI slots, 72-pin SIMM, on-board IDE etc), but old enough to be truly vintage. I would have to be quite desperate to pay $90 + shipping for a Pentium II, but perhaps the vintage computing craze has driven up prices to those levels.

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486 is iffy on 72pin simm.  Later ones, yeah. Early ones, not so much. (Besides, this one has more than enough RAM in it for dos titles)

 

I was originally looking for 486 era hardware, but the prices on ebay were sky high. (The OP simply asked for an AT compatible that was under 250$. This system meets that description. If it is overpriced, it's because demand has indeed driven prices up on everything.)  That PII system should fill the need though, since it does have ISA slots, and clearly has a floppy controller.  Its adapter rom region shouldnt be packed full of goofy things like modern systems are, so it should play nice with real DOS.  The big issue is gonna be the CPU being too fast for some early games.  MoSlo and pals were made explicitly for this purpose, and are themselves period software for that purpose. He can probably recoup some of his investment by reselling the adaptec card and tape drive as a paired item. 

 

 

Edited by wierd_w
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On 11/18/2019 at 11:58 PM, Turbo-Torch said:

They will format, but you'll get tons of sector errors when you try to read them.

You don't want to use single- or double-density formatting to write to a HD floppy disk. They have a different magnetism threshold, sort of like how cassette tapes had chrome tapes and needed a switch flipped to record properly to them. There's also another issue that the PC used 80-track drives for HD, but only 40-track floppy drives for DD, and the path of the record head is a different width if you try to write a disk with both.

 

Anyhow, 5 1/4" HD floppies were almost exclusively used with MS-DOS systems, and mostly were used in the '90s and late '80s.

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19 hours ago, carlsson said:

Usually late 486 or Pentium 1 is the sweet spot for being modern enough to find affordable hardware (PCI slots, 72-pin SIMM, on-board IDE etc), but old enough to be truly vintage. I would have to be quite desperate to pay $90 + shipping for a Pentium II, but perhaps the vintage computing craze has driven up prices to those levels.

I consider the Pentium/133 that I own to be "Meta-Retro" - it's old enough to be retro, but new enough to emulate most interesting systems.

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39 minutes ago, Bruce Tomlin said:

You don't want to use single- or double-density formatting to write to a HD floppy disk. They have a different magnetism threshold, sort of like how cassette tapes had chrome tapes and needed a switch flipped to record properly to them. There's also another issue that the PC used 80-track drives for HD, but only 40-track floppy drives for DD, and the path of the record head is a different width if you try to write a disk with both.

 

Anyhow, 5 1/4" HD floppies were almost exclusively used with MS-DOS systems, and mostly were used in the '90s and late '80s.

 

:? That's sort of why I said this several days ago:

 

Quote

They're not going to work with 180K or 360K (SSDD or DSDD) drives due to the different heads and magnetic media.

 

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Yeah, true that a Pentium II still would have one or two ISA slots. If it was $30 local pickup I wouldn't object but $90 + shipping still seems ludicrous for a category of computers you basically gave away 10 years ago. Sure, the same could be said about a C64 in 1996 so over time what once was surplus stuff eventually gains a market value but still.

 

I've got a few complete and parted out Pentium systems in my basement that I've not bothered to tinker with or get rid of, because I figured the sales value is so low, and the trouble to re-acquire the stuff if needed would be so high. Now if I was offered $90 for that old Pentium II/III desktop of mine, I'd not hesitate very long.

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You gotta be careful with some of those authentic IBM machines, especially in the mid 90s era systems.  Some of them are MicroChannel architecture, and will make you a sad panda unless you know exactly what you are doing, and happen to have some of the rare cards needed for that slot type.

 

Your best bet is one of the "mainstream" clone makers. Compaq, and Co. for instance. (Too many to give an exhaustive list; just that the clone makers are more likely to give you a pleasurable experience, unless you know exactly what you are doing.)

 

The Compaq Portable 1 is an XT class system though, not AT. (8088 processor, NOT '286+)

 

Do you really want a luggable?  There were several produced that were full CGA/EGA, and had a 286 in them, like the Compaq portable III.

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I do like luggables.

Also, I found desktops to be unacceptably expensive. Sure, I can buy a 5150 for around $150, but then I have to spend much more on stuff like keyboards, monitors, graphic cards to play games... etc. The Compaq Portable has all that built in.

Why are IBM PC/compatibles so expensive? I'm sure I could find a pile of them at a flea market or something for $50 or something. I can go without MS-DOS for a while. If I can find one of those $150 Compaqs, great, but I happen to know a place that should have a motherload of old IBM stuff that I can buy. It's also in the other side of the planet from where I live.

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20 hours ago, bluejay said:

Can I install 3.5 inch floppy drives on a Compaq Portable 1?

I guess it's pointless to install a VGA card since it has a monochrome monitor, but how about an adlib card?

What is your budget and what kind of programs are you wanting to run?

You mentioned desktops being too expensive...luggables are rare, not as expandable and will usually cost far more.

 

A Compaq 1 is from 1983, it's an 8088 that runs at 4.77 mhz and needs add on boards to go beyond 256K.  It's not going to be much fun, especially if you don't get one with a hard drive.

 

For luggables, I have a two IBM P70 systems that were made in 1988.  They are 386 systems with 3.5" 1.44 floppy drives, hard drives and EGA graphics.  The built in monitor is red plasma monochrome but there is an external EGA port for a regular monitor.  They seem to be the best of all worlds, but unfortunately (as wierd_w mentioned) they have MicroChannel expansion slots, and the few soundboards that were made are worth their weight in gold.  Mine have 486 upgrade kits running over 100 mhz and 64mb of RAM, yet they're not fun game machines without a sound card/joystick port and I'm not about to fork over $500 for a used MCA sound card.

 

When it comes to endless cheap/free 8088 to 486 systems, you missed the boat on that by 10 years.  That said, you should still be able to search your local Craigslist and thrift stores and eventually find a cheap generic system.  If you only want a collectable name brand like IBM, it'll be difficult to find someone dumb enough to let one go dirt cheap. 

 

I still have a generic desktop I bought from Staples back in 2004.  It's a Pentium running at 3.2 ghz, has a floppy drive, DVD drive, decent size hard drive, USB ports, real RS232 ports, parallel printer port, built sound that compatible with everything and a graphics card.  The reason I hang onto it is because it transcends two different eras.  I can drop to DOS and run programs like Telix that I've been using since the mid 80s.  It came with Windows XP (which runs great on it) and with the upgraded video card, it can still run later FPS games.  RS232 ports are great for legacy equipment and yet it still has plenty of USB ports.

If I decided I didn't want it anymore, I'd probably put it on Craigslist for $50 bucks.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Turbo-Torch said:

What is your budget and what kind of programs are you wanting to run?

You mentioned desktops being too expensive...luggables are rare, not as expandable and will usually cost far more.

If I wanted a full 286 setup for a desktop, although it would be better than a luggable, would require about $200 for the computer itself, and another $250 for the keyboard and monitor. And I'll need a CGA card at the very least to play games. I've seen working Compaq Portable 1s sell for less than $200, and as I said, The Compaq has what I need all built in. My budget is around $200 and I want to run word processors and games.

I'll eventually get a 486, and run early low end games on my Compaq(if I decide to get it), and higher end games on a 486(laptop or desktop) that I'm positive I'll be able to find for less that $100(trust me!).

Edited by bluejay
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