Unicorns season: Prince of Persia for the A8!

[FifthPlayer]

I'm not a big fan of design by committee, and I think rensoup should make the presentation the way he wants.  But I do think Jose's mockup looks much nicer than a stark white on black intro.  @rensoup and @TIX have deviated from the original in some really brilliant ways that improve on the experience, but in this case the white-on-black design is neither true to the original nor an improvement.  I think the argument about flicker is a red herring - it's the white-on-black design that's really lacking in feeling or inspiration.

 

If @rensoup doesn't like the tiled border, I'm sure there's a compromise where the tiles are eliminated but the colorfulness is kept.

[ilmenit]

Guys, @rensoup and @TIX already did a lot of work with redoing graphics from original Mechner's vision into a consistent visual design. Let them present their vision and we will see how it fits together. My opinion is that the original colorful "bathroom style" graphics fitted the intro screen and later "sultan & princess room" animation. The "bathroom tiles" are close to eastern "persian ornaments", but black & white design can be also classy.

https://www.bradbury.com/victorian/persian_corner.html

Edited May 27, 2020 by ilmenit

[Faicuai]

1 hour ago, rensoup said:

(...)

 

 

 

Interesting!

 

These would be my picks, after looking very closely:

 

1, Sega Genesis.

2. Super Nintendo.

3. PC (MS-DOS) and Amiga (very, very similar to each other)

4. I was surprised on how well Atari ST came out. Never saw it coming (!) :-))

 

But more than the picks, it is very clear that the key to this game's graphics (and scenes) is MOOD. Warm & Dark (for Palace) and Cold-and-Dark or "gloomy" ("catacombish" with plenty of stone-like textures) is what really immerses you on it.

 

As for the intro, well, whatever technical framework is fine, but should be evoking of mystery, legend, etc... as the intros shown on the video. No problems here handling high-speed flickering (in any variant) on LCD monitor, on real NTSC HW.

 

Cheers!

 

[José Pereira]

What versions don't have?

SamCoupe not the sides, GameBoy's uggly:

 

 

It all started with Jordan Mechner Aplle ][:

 

 

All these pixels because of the Machine's owns way of using Artifacting that others followed adapting that to 1:1 ratio or 2:1 ratio:

-> PC DOS version as far as I remember second the original (this one seems VGA version I think):

->CPC but all is in 2:1 ratio:

-> Even ZX not so looking god has:

-> C64:

 

 

Even a modern version for the iPhone uses it:

 

 

So you're the only, as it seems, that don't like and is trying to have a new approach, design,... whatever is in your head.

Probably Jordan Mechner wouldn't/will not like your...

Sorry but no way.

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

Mostly all have the Persian City theme,

Mostly all have the story in book type theme

 

If you don't like tiles all around maybe right and left edges could be guilded page edges of a book or even scroll like... Just and Idea....

[Faicuai]

Now that we are bringing the best 8-bit version of PoP ever, I have also made a mock-up of a happyly-ever-after Princess's rescue scene that we could definitely add at the very end (call it a U1MB / Incognito special edition)!

 

(pardon the sound-track, it is highly inappropriate for the occasion). Hope you like it, guys!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Faicuai

[ivop]

1 hour ago, FifthPlayer said:

I'm not a big fan of design by committee

Agree. It's something I have seen happen in various communities. Somebody publishes a WIP of something too complex for most people to understand what's going on, and they start discussing the colors of the bike shed, also known as the law of triviality.

 

[MaPa]

I would avoid using flickering screens. As for the text.. is it a "picture" or is it drawn from some data, functions etc.? If it's a picture I would rather go for hand letter optimization to look it more smooth than trying to have font as close as possible to the original (if it's the case).

[TIX]

1 hour ago, FifthPlayer said:

I'm not a big fan of design by committee, and I think @rensoup should make the presentation the way he wants

.

.

?

[rensoup]

2 hours ago, MaPa said:

I would avoid using flickering screens. As for the text.. is it a "picture" or is it drawn from some data, functions etc.? If it's a picture I would rather go for hand letter optimization to look it more smooth than trying to have font as close as possible to the original (if it's the case).

Not a picture, just a font (well 2 fonts, one for each screen). I tried to stick to the original font but I could use a different one if I found one that looked better.

I tried touching it up to have less of it flicker but it didn't look that great (it becomes too fat). The problem may be that I used color reduction while I perhaps should just have rendered it at double res and done a high quality resize.

 

[rensoup]

4 hours ago, Rybags said:

For an example of what you can expect to see you could try the "Real interlace (480i)" link in my tag below.  Best run on a CRT TV, or use Altirra with it's interlace emulation enabled and probably best in NTSC with video sync locked to the monitor.

 

 I tried in Altirra 3.90.25 (don't have real HW) and it looks exactly the same as I'm doing except that I also do the flickering on the horizontal axis. I'm not taking advantage of any HW bug but the visual result is the same.

 

(I tried with interlace and it looked totally buggy, looked fine with frame blending)

 

[Awch]

For the life of me, I don't understand the anger and frustration being expressed here. It's one thing to provide suggestions, but the entitlement here is disappointing. This game is a gift, no matter what state it arrives in, and is infinitely better than the version we have today. I couldn't be more appreciative and hope the majority of the community agrees.

[+Philsan]

I've read all the posts and I think everyone is very thankful to rensoup and to people involved.

 

Many people, depending on their skills, have contributed in some way (betatesting, mock-ups, sfx, ideas, tips...).

 

Regarding prologue screen, people tested files on real hardware to provide feedbacks.

I don't like interlace but I gave a positive feedback for flicker2 on PAL CRT.

 

Someone has humbly expressed a preference for a colorful prologue screen, perhaps rensoup will make an interlaced colorful screen, I don't know, but obviously it's up to him to decide what to do.

Considered the masterpiece he programmed, I think he will surprise us with a nice prologue screen too.

 

Anyway, I am sure everyone here will be happy, whatever prologue screen will be made.

 

 

[TheNameOfTheGame]

Yes, I am happy to have the game on the A8 for sure.  The intro screen is not what I would consider the best the system can do, but I will still enjoy the game and appreciate the effort of all who are contributing.

[madness77]

The decoration of the borders of the pages of the books is part of the Arabic art of writing.

We discussed whether the Prince should have a turban.

So IMHO pages of the book of this story should also have ornaments (examples)

 

BTW. Great work so far! That will be the best A8 game ever (well, probably) but... please... no flickering...

[Jacques]

There is great consistency between the intro pages and the actual title screen (here C64 version). 

A8 could do even better with our superior palette of colors. 

But sadly, looks like we'll miss classic title screen, too, with decorations on it? 

 

No reason to be shocked by community reaction, when we're going to miss some parts of legendary artwork we dreamed of seeing on A8, because just the author sees Mechner's gfx as "bathroom style" ?

If that's bathroom style, @rensoup B/W proposal must be FUNERAL edition (no offence) ?

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Jacques

[rensoup]

3 hours ago, madness77 said:

The decoration of the borders of the pages of the books is part of the Arabic art of writing.

We discussed whether the Prince should have a turban.

So IMHO pages of the book of this story should also have ornaments (examples)

 

BTW. Great work so far! That will be the best A8 game ever (well, probably) but... please... no flickering...

Got nothing again Persian ornaments, I'm sure there are many that would work better than the original with its 70s inspired brown yellow palette. A different layout would be great too but I'm still limited by the HW and its 5 PMGs...

 

1 hour ago, Jacques said:

No reason to be shocked by community reaction, when we're going to miss some parts of legendary artwork we dreamed of seeing on A8, because just the author sees Mechner's gfx as "bathroom style" ?

If that's bathroom style, @rensoup B/W proposal must be FUNERAL edition (no offence) ?

 

 

Works for Karateka by the very same Jordan Mechner... Of course Karateka is a much darker game with a completely different story ?

 

It doesn't have to be B/W I guess... I could make it purple ?

[+Stephen]

3 hours ago, Jacques said:

There is great consistency between the intro pages and the actual title screen (here C64 version). 

A8 could do even better with our superior palette of colors. 

But sadly, looks like we'll miss classic title screen, too, with decorations on it? 

 

No reason to be shocked by community reaction, when we're going to miss some parts of legendary artwork we dreamed of seeing on A8, because just the author sees Mechner's gfx as "bathroom style" ?

If that's bathroom style, @rensoup B/W proposal must be FUNERAL edition (no offence) ?

 

I've spent the evening working on 2 title screens that will match the intro.

1 video (flicker)

2 is non-flicker so just a screenshot

 

Please let me know which you prefer - I can post a working XEX if desired.

1 - Here's the hi-res version with flicker

 

 

2 - Here's the hi-res without flicker

[kiwilove]

I think the developers are doing great work on this conversion - and I think that people's suggestions are just that - and it's always up to the devs, whether to take that on board or not?  As long as the core game is working and looking great - all the rest is just not as important.  To expect perfection everywhere else is simply nitpicking.  I'd rather see the devs finish up here - and start thinking about - what's the next project to be?

 

I don't expect a revisit to Karateka to make it what it should have been like - with it being more responsive and faster in gameplay - more interesting combat, etc.  What's on the horizon from others - Wonderboy, Galaga...

Maybe a non-VBXE Moon Cresta? would be nice.

 

Harvey

[_The Doctor__]

Okay more ideas,

 

If you have some flicker the embellishment could be torches providing the light that presumably makes it flicker... :)

 

that would be an artistic way to make sense to our minds...

 

much of the experience is our imagination and we set that up based on the intro, we get into the mood so to speak by the lead in atmosphere...

 

Remember this classic is ingrained in our heads and was a milestone for software of the day.

[José Pereira]

10 hours ago, rensoup said:

Got nothing again Persian ornaments, I'm sure there are many that would work better than the original with its 70s inspired brown yellow palette. A different layout would be great too but I'm still limited by the HW and its 5 PMGs...

Yeah... you only read what you want so answer the way you think 'fool other'...

Just say that you don't work with G2F and @tix is a professional designer so you using modern tools to get things.

You just don't want to have anyone more involved so you don't want to simple use anything other(s) do even if, like me, I said that didn't want credits just 'copy&paste' that screens. It'sd so simple and trivial as this.

What the hell is that talking of 5PMGs?

 

The text screen has them simple and effective.

The presentation screen with the palace, stars and game name's logo,... could also be done same way have you just asked for help but you didn't

The inside palace start and ending girl with jaffar and/or girl with prince more the sand watch could be done the same way. Using prince same as in-game PMGs more one on the vizier while girl would use Missiles. Gfxs can be taken from tiles, use new ones,... but you can still use you're engine.

 

No, I'm not going to say kind words and that whatever comes the important is to have the game because isn't.

We'll have game playing while we'll miss original and great screen and art done by the great Jordan Mechner.

This way I sincerily prefer not have the game like we did not have many others than this way.

 

Now I really understand... you also don't listen all others when they say "purple on the palace please don't" and that brown yellow is the best and sand like but you don't care.

 

I first talked with you and @TIX using here the Messenger showing things could be with little changes look better but you always don't take it.

Now with this thing of the text screens it was just more than enough for me, was a bomb that revolted me so I decided to 'open the book' and post all and feels here for public.

 

When I posted the windows you seem to also don't care and answered that for a pixel No. That's it, you just take things and use modern devs to port them to A8 but don't want to any help piece by piece re-adapting them. Then beeing a ocder, even a good one, doing the guys and masks just isn't enough for me to justify the killing of the game that in the end you're doing.

 

Like the text screens here's now another example as a simple change (though it needs to redone frames shapes but why not take a couple of hours?) on the enemys they look more distinct to the background gfxs (just because of we on A8 arelimited to the 3colours of gfxs more some colourings via PMGs like is the skin and their pants):

Quote

Hi.

@rensoup and @TIX while seeing your brilliant work I have to say, to be honest, my opinion is that, take it or not, posting here to don't write there on the Thread to all public ?.

In my opinion the enemys because most of their pixels use the PFs colours are too too 'equal' to the background colours.:

I know all the things behind and the lack of PMGs available but there's a way for them to 'shine againts gfxs' that is having turbant, tunic and shoes in white (a little  similar to the original Apple][ version):

You can just 'reverse' light colour<->white or with some little aditional work @TIX can remake a pixel here and there...

Also there's something else , was a very good idea people can choose the colour they want for boy's vest. You have in what seems like colour in luminance 4 or 6 and it's too dark VS around others colours/luminances contours. I would suggest you have in luminance 8 (on my remake the green is like an A8 colour A in luminance 8 or A done in P.C. Paint program).

Just some ideas but I think they'll make thinks look better.

So like is now the enemy have pants too too dark so they can be whatever colour as is now but luminance should be lighetr than is.

Like prince pants are white also enemy tunic, shoes and turbant should be white so this way it shines/is distinct from the surrounding gfxs. But of course that enemy frames should be redone.

Also prince turban could be white and just the other colours for dither.

The two, prince and enemy main parts be white (a bit like the original Apple ][) they also look good and 'pass apart' for when changing colours as will be on the Palace people on have the contours and some dither changing colours.

 

No, don't say you don't agree because is a true fact that has no possible say no because is just having what the Machine best can display and has to offer.

 

I say again that have I knowledge would change all these things when game is released.

Sorry but I'll be posting all these things and why it could look better and done other way but keeping the code you have on anywhere people post on Forums, videos,... after the game release.

 

It's really sad that you get the code working great but kill all with your behavior.

On the past we're talking of companies to make money so do what they want and just don't ask.

Now in the XXI century we're in a community and don't listen others trying to get their ideas when they're possible is really a bad thing.

 

[José Pereira]

11 hours ago, rensoup said:

It doesn't have to be B/W I guess... I could make it purple ?

This shows your idea of community. Yes use purtple same way you did on the Palace for the dark colour and 'killed' the original sand looking...

[Jacques]

51 minutes ago, José Pereira said:

while girl would use Missiles

Sorry, I couldn't resist it (not that I like Soviet stuff - totally opposite)?

 

But with the rest Jose  is right (minus emotions) and except terrifying "better not to do it at all" (DISAGREED!). Atari community wants/needs this game badly with this or that intro, but at the same time we wish the Author(s) would listen to people's voice and accept he might be in the dark( actually black ) with his recent ideas and great majority thinks different...

Edited May 28, 2020 by Jacques

[madness77]

to lighten the atmosphere a little...

 

my attempt to make an intro using the full graphic capabilities of Atari

 

pop-intro.xex

[manterola]

18 minutes ago, madness77 said:

my attempt to make an intro using the full graphic capabilities of Atari

 

Fantastic! no flickering at all!  or maybe a little